Reading Your Opponent's Habits

[Scabe]

One of my weakest areas is reading my opponents habits and finding ways to punish these habits; And so I have created this thread asking for some help. I've done searches and I haven't found any threads that focus on this topic. I've also asked around and haven't gotten any answers that's helped and clicked with me. But I apologise if there's already something like this.

Here are some questions I have:

What are some of the habits you look for in your opponent?

Examples: What they do after they shield? How do they land? When do they roll? When do they spotdodge? etc

How Do You Punish Them For This?

Examples: How do you punish someone that spot dodges?

How To Force Habits/Conditioning Your Opponent

Example: Jab once and see what they do after. Do they block?

Example: Getting your aerials shield grabbed alot, and then later at high percents, you space your aerial (or do a fakeout) so that you don't get shield grabbed, and as the opponent tries to shieldgrab you, you punish them in their grab lag. (yes this probably never happens but hopefully you get the idea xD)

How Do You Deal With Habits In Teams?

This is just a curious question that I have.

The answers that you give may be character dependent. So when your answering these questions, just answer with how you would deal with these things with your character.
Example: Most jabs will beat out spododges but for someone like Ganondorf using jab won't work but using stomp might be a better move.

I'll be keeping this thread updated with good quotes from you guys. :bigthumbu

 

[Saltix]

When I look for habits, I look for something that might be character specific. Typically I look at the good, abusable moves a character has, and look at how to punish them accordingly.
For example, I recently played a snake who approaches with dash attack A LOT. Simply when I feel the dash attack is coming, (When I'm stationary charging an aura sphere or SHDLing)
I either shield charge cancel and/or reposition myself slightly outside of the dash attack's range and punish accordingly.

How I punish is often dependent of my % and the opponent's %. I might start a string of attacks, Throw them, or punish with a smash.

 

[Scabe]

I liked your point about looking for abusable moves the opponent's character has. Also you really didn't have to quote my whole post

 

[Saltix]

I liked your point about looking for abusable moves the opponent's character has. Also you really didn't have to quote my whole post

Lol, I fixed it; It would help to know what character you play as well

Also, something you need to keep in mind to read their habits, would be the tools and options their characters have in any given situation.
If you have a general understanding of their character and their character's options, it'll be easier to pinpoint their habits.

Example; Approaching with Fair playing as Lucario:
Lucario can follow up with many things,
Fair-Fair
Fair-Nair
Fair-Bair
Fair-Dair
etc

If an opponent uses Fair-Dair multiple times, in a short period I start looking for it when they approach with Fair. A good player will mix up their approaches, but sometimes players fall into habitual gameplay

TL;DR because I digress too much; Knowing your opponent's options for any given situation will help

 

[PK-ow!]

Do they chase?
Do they retreat?

How often do they try something 'empty'?

Char-specific stuff is important for someone like, say, Marth or Samus. Scrubby Marths shouldn't get as far as I've seen them do, only using one or maybe two patterns of aerial spam.

 

[Orion*]

i hope you guys arent thinking about this in a match -.-

HOW to punish a habit should all pre meditated imo. you should know your characters best options for punishing wiffed marth fair on block or spot dodges, ect.

the reason youre probably not reading habits is because youre trying to think to much lmao

 

[Scabe]

Man such a shame I haven't gotten much input, I really need help on this!

 

[Attila_]

@orion: i dont think he was being that character specific, more so asking about certain player habits, like spotdodging after a whiffed attack or similar.

i try risky stuff often. not afraid to try an fsmash if im comfortable a roll is coming. that being said, i think its important to utilize your longest hitting moves, and safest moves, when trying to predict. long hitting moves (for snake, its generally dash attack or utilt) give you more room for error, and safe moves (for snake, contact mortar slide, spaced ftilt) allow you incorrectly predict and not get punished too badly. I also try not to predict in game 1; allow them to get away with things so they get comfortable, then smack them for it at kill percents to completely mess with their confidence.

 

[Zeroxius]

Ok, have you ever told yourself "I do really well on (abc) day, but then on (xyz) day, I get *****."
Have you ever asked "How do I get kill moves so well on certain stocks and struggle so much on others?"
What about "Where the hell are these amazing combos coming from and why can't I consistantly recreate them?"

Sorry to tell you, but your playstyle is based off of guessing.

There is a major difference between guessing and predicting. There are tons of different methods of fighting that put you at really good positions, but*

there are also the ones that put you in bad positions. On your good days, you do mostly the good ones; likewise for the bad. When you're Guessing, you don't have any idea why your style was working or wasn't working. While predicting, you can see where you messed up because of a wrong option you took. Guessing is playing a chance game. In Brawl, Falco's chances in guessing are not good at all with his weak damage hits and lack of kill moves.

So, you're probably asking yourself, "How the hell do I stop guessing and start predicting?"

I've tried to break these things up into to learnable sections. Not knowing why I was have good and bad days frusterated me enough to re-evaluate what was going on. These are all my opinion from my experiences, take them as you will.

1) Learning to see patterns in play habits.
This is broken up in many different parts, but there are three important sections.
From where is your opponent is approaching(or camping from?)
Is it usually an aerial approach?
Is it a running shield approach?
Is it a running grab approach? etc etc etc

What are their primary methods of approaching(or camping?)
Shield, Dodge, Grab, Specials, Smashes, Tilts, Aerials, and Jabs are their options. Learn how they all work.

What does the opponent do when they're under pressure(being attacked/approached-even a simple run animation reflex)
Shield-grab, Shield-OOS option, roll, spot dodge, jump, sit in their shield, or even attack are the majority of reflex*
When they're in the air, empty short hops are nice to bait air dodges into Fsmashes. If they don't air dodge, then Falco can double jump and get away.
I'll elaborate more on this as time goes by(including editing for Falco main specifics), but these are the positions one should observe (while their playing or not) and try to figure out what the playing habits are. Keep in mind, the higher caliper player means more mix up and less predictability.

2) Knowing what the best option is in every prediction set up.
For example, if Cpt Falcon threw someone forward and that someone air dodged, Falcon gets a free grab when predicted. Falcon also gets a short hop forward falcon punch in the same prediction(if it doesn't work, pretend it does for the example.) Which option would you choose?

Second example, as Falco, if you jab someone and predict them to shield after it, the best option would be to grab them. You can't Fsmash them for that prediction because the shield they were doing anyways would block it or you would get shield grabbed during the beginning animation of the Fsmash.*

This is obviously all Falco specific. Later on we'll discuss different options for different situations.

3)Actually implementing these options in play.
Learning to deal with the stress of making educated guesses all of the time is important for your growth as a player. You're not always going to get it right, so have a back up strategy in case it falls through. Try not to stray from smart options into easy options because you messed up a prediction. Learn what annoys the opponent and use it(in other words, your back-up strategy). It will make them more predictable, making life for you a hell of a lot easier. If you've done everything else right, and this prediction doesn't put you in an extremely bad position, then go for it.

I will try to keep this thread going with good setups and other important parts to this aspect of the game. Seeing the Falco self rate thread and all of the posts on the Falco boards, make me think Falco's are too reliable on technical items and weird gimmicks.(splat) I'd like to see more of, "Wow I just got owned by a Falco." not "Wow, I got owned by lasers."

Edit Update.

One should never be going for predictions all of the time. A player needs to stay back until they see an opportunity. A player also needs to apply pressure when they're staying back. This strategy should be safe for the most part until a prediction is made. Laser camping until their shield is low is a good pressure strategy.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean camp until you see one opportunity, hit once, then run back(unless you like that.) People are allowed to attack close ranged and throw in multiple predictions. You don't need to hit the opponent either while distance pressuring. Wolf's back air wall is a good distance pressure strategy for him.

I copypasted this from a thread somewhere like a month ago. I think I might have from the Falco boards, but idk. So shoutouts to whoever posted this, thank you. It has really helped me improve my Pika game! =D

 

[maaple]

If you want to get better at reading habits, look to understanding characters and matchups. Most moves are going to be based on what each character's strengths are, and are used in predictable moments. ie, you figure out if your opponent is doing the best possible move in a particular situation, and if you realize they aren't, opportunity to punish. Likewise, understanding what the best move at any situation for you and your opponent would greatly improve how far ahead you can think while brawling, thus you can read your opponent. For me, I think of it like a probability game. Each moment in the game there are tons of different outcomes possible, but only a few that are worth doing. This narrows down a ton of different possibilities, giving you a better chance to read your opponent. Hope this helps.

 

[OhMySailboat]

I used to think that it'd be hard to do this to PT because your playing 3 people on one game. But its whatever.

 

[-LzR-]

When you are against a predictable opponent, who is let's say Fox, you are at 110%.
He desperately tries to get that usmash, you just abuse it. Stay the hell out of Fox, camp him, go to the ledge, do anything, to not get hit by it, since you know it's coming. That is unfortunately the limit of my prediction >_<

 

[Loota]

When you are against a predictable opponent, who is let's say Fox, you are at 110%.
He desperately tries to get that usmash, you just abuse it. Stay the hell out of Fox, camp him, go to the ledge, do anything, to not get hit by it, since you know it's coming. That is unfortunately the limit of my prediction >_<

I would actually place myself in a situation where it looks like that I would be open for an upsmash. In fact I'm just baiting it and I'm ready to punish it and thus live longer and making the Fox more uncertain about his killing moves gaining momentum. This is particulary effective with Lucario because it is extremely important to get the kill soon against him or else you will die Lucario can gain a very solid lead.

 

[AndorranPrince]

Haha, it really depends on who you're playing against and as. I play Yoshi a lot, so I find out if my opponent prefers to play air or ground, and I act the opposite. I don't stay a step ahead so to speak, but I make the opponent as uncomfortable as possible ^_^

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, baiting is kinda part of the predicting game, you predict he will fall for it ^_^

 

[6Mizu]

I've found the calmer I am/the better mindset I have/being more patient...the better I am at reading habbit and making predictions.
Scabe try being calmer and more patient.

 

[znintendotaku]

One thing I always do at tourneys when I fight a new opponent is I approach with just a SHFF with kirby or shiek and gauge what they do after that. Usually, if it's the beginning of the match, they grab or spotdodge, which leaves them open for a grab combo or Fsmash. You can even do it randomly during the match to catch them off guard.

What I'm getting at is that if you approach without an attack, not only is it a good mind game but you get a nice glimpse of what they do as you approach and after you've already approached them.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I wonder if anyone tries to fool their opponent by abusing a habit at the start and then stop doing it.

 

[znintendotaku]

I wonder if anyone tries to fool their opponent by abusing a habit at the start and then stop doing it.

Me and my brawl mates do this all the time. Feels good man.

 

[Tommy_G]

I copypasted this from a thread somewhere like a month ago. I think I might have from the Falco boards, but idk. So shoutouts to whoever posted this, thank you. It has really helped me improve my Pika game! =D

Woah that's my guide from like months ago.

I keep all of my guides here if anyone wants to read any more of them:
http://allisbrawl.com/blog.aspx?id=3447

I'll put my input for this topic later. I have class now :-/

 

[DFEAR]

^tommy g is THE BEST falco...

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

^Avatar: The Last Airbender is a sick show

 

[Sunnysunny]

I usually start off pretty aggressive (or just throw eggs :>) usually if the opponents aggressive I can out beat them.
If I found out there defensive I have sooo much fun~!
I can just grab em all day long~! :> Throw eggs throw eggs throw egg, opponent approached, egg lay run away and throw more eggs. :V Of course...this only works against opponent yoshi can out camp or impatient players, which isn't much but still fun.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Woah that's my guide from like months ago.

I keep all of my guides here if anyone wants to read any more of them:
http://allisbrawl.com/blog.aspx?id=3447

I'll put my input for this topic later. I have class now :-/

Nice guide though. Obviously you're speaking from a Falco's point of view but this guide could be used for anyone. I'll try to keep this stuff in mind. Great read. I have issues reverting to guessing rather than predicting when I feel pressured and I need to stop that. Playing such a defense oriented character like D3 has helped me to become more patient however.

 

[Vyse]

These are two of my favourite threads on smashboards:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176650
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816

Give them a read Scabe.

 

[-Vocal-]

^Those threads are amazing

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I bookmarked them. This is why I like coming to Tactical Discussion :D