RE: Advanced Techniques (Official, and hopefully FINAL, discussion thread)

[Papapaint]

Many threads have been posted stating the importance of advanced techniques in brawl. Many people seem to be worried the gap will close between casual and advanced players.

There is no logic to these thoughts.

What separates the good from the bad, the pros from the friendlies, is the mind. Simple as that. A professional player doesn't need advanced techniques. They don't need Wavedashing (Gimpyfish), they don't need L-Canceling (explained below), and they don't need the myriad of character-specific techniques. Those do make for an interesting game, but when you really get down to it, the game is all about smarts. Being a step ahead, planning, spacing, etc.

If you feel as though the removal of advanced techniques will hinder you, you're not an advanced player. Simple as that. I'm a Luigi player, so I'm feeling the brunt of losing wavedashing right there with all of you. I also love using Marth and Falco... shffls and shine cancels are important to my game too. But when it comes down to it, I can beat a casual player without using any of that, simply because I'm better at the core of the game.

As for the loss of L-cancelling... name me an advanced player who doesn't L-cancel every single aerial. It's standard in the game. Anyone worth their salt does it. The few times they arbitrarily slip up does not determine their skill. So, in a metagame where everyone does it, why not just remove it? One less button push. Considering L-cancelling did the same thing every time, and everyone used it, it wasn't exactly separating the wheat from the chaff. It was the first and most important technique people learned.

People argue that this is going to cause advanced players to sink to the level of advanced players. It's not. It's simply going to put people on equal footing--at least until more are discovered in brawl. How can you possibly claim to be better than someone if you're not on equal footing?

Welcome to Brawl. Time to Mindgamez.

 

[Bobhuffman]

yeah I agree, some players think that without wave-dashing they will be just as good as normal players well take Halo 2 for example i played for quite a while and most "pros" could beat you without doing tricks because they played based on skill

 

[Magus420]

The main gripe is not with the playing field of advanced vs casuals somehow being evened out (because it won't be), but that the resulting play between advanced players of close skill will be excessively campy and not as fun with seemingly less viable offensive and maneuverability options.

The action of L-cancelling itself is also not the issue, but rather the possible imbalance created by the lag given to moves to replace it. While many fast characters have their lag reduced to around l-cancelled speed, many slower characters have MORE lag than the moves had when NOT l-cancelled.

While I think it's far too soon to say this myself, it does appear to be leaning towards that direction from what little we know so far.

 

[Papapaint]

The videos I've seen so far don't support that argument one bit. In fact, I'd argue that the removal of those techniques rather makes for a more tactical game, with more well-thought out offensive strategies. I don't see camping as being a viable strategy at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So, in a metagame where everyone does it, why not just remove it? One less button push. Considering L-cancelling did the same thing every time, and everyone used it, it wasn't exactly separating the wheat from the chaff. It was the first and most important technique people learned.

Well, L-canceling reduced the lag by half every single time. So if they had taken it out and made all characters have half of their aerials' original lags it would've been fine. The problem is that that's not how it worked out. The fast characters are as fast or faster than their melee selves (take a look at Marth, who can now short hop double uair) were with L-canceling, but the slower characters are slower than in melee. They made the gap in speed between fast and slow characters bigger and we're afraid that will render them unusable. Most good figthing games have a way to cancel lag, as a way to even the playing field not between casual and competative players, but between the characters themselves. It may be a difficult concept to grasp, but in a game like smash, where you have a very large amount of space to move around, slow characters are at an inherant disadvantage. The way to fix this is to simply bring them up to speed, and that's best done with a technique. It can be like the Roman Cancel in guilty gear, which eliminates all lag but has a price, it can be L-canceling which benifits slow characters more than fast ones, but there just has to be some way to significantly speed them up, without giving too much benifit to the faster characters.

We know that mindgames are important, but you're missing the point we've been getting at. We're saying that depth is the most important, and that a game isn't worth putting time into if there's no way to improve. We will give this game a chance, just as we did melee, but to take out so many options that worked so well is saddening. To take out options that have already proven to add a significant amount of depth (dash danceing, pivoting, wavedashing, edgeguarding in general, ect.) in order to appease the casuals who complained about a fighting game being too hard is just plain devestating. Trying to bring the casual and competative audiances together was a mistake, and dumming down the game was a bigger mistake. We don't want to play with the casual gammers, not because of elitism, but because we have a different opinion of what fun is. To us smash is a fighting game, and to them it's a party game.

Auto sweetspotting?!, attacking after airdodging?!, grabbing the edge when you're facing the wrong way?!, why does this game need to cater to those who can't do something as simple as recover. Why does the game completely negate edgeguarding, in a game that revolves around keeping people off the stage?! This is the sentement currently going around. We didn't want melee 2.0, but we sure as hell didn't want a party game.

And to say we weren't on equal footing before is incorrect. Everyone had the physical capability to preform these techniques, and had a way that they could've accessed the information if they were interested, but they simply chose not to do them. They chose not to learn something that would make them better, and then they complained about us beating them. It's like saying it's not fair for us to learn how to get better.

The videos I've seen so far don't support that argument one bit. In fact, I'd argue that the removal of those techniques rather makes for a more tactical game, with more well-thought out offensive strategies. I don't see camping as being a viable strategy at all.

You mean not being able to dash dance somehow adds more options than being able to dash dance and do everything we do now? Advance techniques can only add options to the one preforming them.

And in case you haven't noticed, the slow characters are slower. Case in point, Gannondorf. Compare Gannondorf's speed to Marth's in both melee and brawl. You should be able to see just how much the gap has widened

 

[Adi]

Yup, no competitive player is worried about a competitive vs. casual battle, they are worried about competitive vs. competitive battles.

 

[okami473]

Wow Sonic Wave your artical makes me want to explode it makes so much sence *not sarcasm*. Nice.

 

[Papapaint]

Well, L-canceling reduced the lag by half every single time. So if they had taken it out and made all characters have half of their aerials' original lags it would've been fine. The problem is that that's not how it worked out. The fast characters are as fast or faster than their melee selves (take a look at Marth, who can now short hop double uair) were with L-canceling, but the slower characters are slower than in melee. They made the gap in speed between fast and slow characters bigger and we're afraid that will render them unusable. Most good figthing games have a way to cancel lag, as a way to even the playing field not between casual and competative players, but between the characters themselves. It may be a difficult concept to grasp, but in a game like smash, where you have a very large amount of space to move around, slow characters are at an inherant disadvantage. The way to fix this is to simply bring them up to speed, and that's best done with a technique. It can be like the Roman Cancel in guilty gear, which eliminates all lag but has a price, it can be L-canceling which benifits slow characters more than fast ones, but there just has to be some way to significantly speed them up, without giving too much benifit to the faster characters.

I know what you're saying, but the game can be evened out in other ways. The "super armor" seems to work reasonably well. Giving the slow characters high weight and fast hitstun recovery has worked remarkably well--i.e. Ike. I see what you're saying, but I think this game took a different approach.

We know that mindgames are important, but you're missing the point we've been getting at. We're saying that depth is the most important, and that a game isn't worth putting time into if there's no way to improve. We will give this game a chance, just as we did melee, but to take out so many options that worked so well is saddening. To take out options that have already proven to add a significant amount of depth (dash danceing, pivoting, wavedashing, edgeguarding in general, ect.) in order to appease the casuals who complained about a fighting game being too hard is just plain devestating. Trying to bring the casual and competative audiances together was a mistake, and dumming down the game was a bigger mistake. We don't want to play with the casual gammers, not because of elitism, but because we have a different opinion of what fun is. To us smash is a fighting game, and to them it's a party game.

Depth is not reliant on the number of difficult techniques. If that's the case, a game like tekken, with difficult million-button combos, is far deeper than smash and thus mroe worthy of your time. Depth in a game relies more on your ability to be better than someone without all those techniques. Case in point: Halo 3. There are no techniques or glitches to take advantage of (at least, none that particularly help), and yet the multiplayer is incredibly deep and satisfying because of its ability to distinguish the good from the bad merely by determining who the better player is mentally. Who makes the better decisions? Who reacts best under pressure? Who uses what they have to their advantage the best?

Auto sweetspotting?!, attacking after airdodging?!, grabbing the edge when you're facing the wrong way?!, why does this game need to cater to those who can't do something as simple as recover. Why does the game completely negate edgeguarding, in a game that revolves around keeping people off the stage?! This is the sentement currently going around. We didn't want melee 2.0, but we sure as hell didn't want a party game.

This argument is a little weak--we've seen edgeguarding to be possible, but more difficult. I'd argue this adds depth to the game. I don't think there's any merit in beating someone because you pushed them off the edge at 10% with fox and then shine spiked them two frames before their ledge invincibility activated.

And to say we weren't on equal footing before is incorrect. Everyone had the physical capability to preform these techniques, and had a way that they could've accessed the information if they were interested, but they simply chose not to do them. They chose not to learn something that would make them better, and then they complained about us beating them. It's like saying it's not fair for us to learn how to get better.

But we really weren't on equal footing. For example--I'm sure that nowhere in the national rules of tennis does it say that you can't have a tennis racket with an M16 installed. If one player notices this, and exploits it against all of his opponents by shooting and killing them before they serve, they are not on equal footing. Sure, the opponents can all install guns and the game becomes quick-draw, but then it's no longer tennis.

You mean not being able to dash dance somehow adds more options than being able to dash dance and do everything we do now. Advance techniques can only add options to the one preforming them.

True, but they also limit options. If two professionals are playing against each other, do you really think one of them can "not do" any of those advanced techniques? They don't have an option but to use them. I'd argue they limit people more than they help. you can't not L-cancel. You can't not wavedash (depending on the character, obviously). You will lose.

And in case you haven't noticed, the slow characters are slower. Case in point, Gannondorf. Compare Gannondorf's speed to Marth's in both melee and brawl. You should be able to see just how much the gap has widened

The game, to me, seems slower on the whole. And I've already commented on slower characters above.

 

[Sandwich]

Hey guise guess what??????

THERE ARE GOING TO BE NEW ADVANCE TECHS IN BRAWL

omg no waii!!!!!111oneplusshiftelevan!

 

[Kunato]

I never got into advanced techs, so I'm happy Wavedashing, l-canceling etc. is out. Hopefully this gives me a chance against "advanced" players when fighting online.

 

[Papapaint]

Hey guise guess what??????

THERE ARE GOING TO BE NEW ADVANCE TECHS IN BRAWL

omg no waii!!!!!111oneplusshiftelevan!

No Wai!

Oh wait... I said that earlier.

 

[Juggleguy]

Wavedashing and L-Canceling might be out... but mindgames are still in. That's what will keep the gap between noobs and pros the way it is. It's laughable to see people post about how no advanced techniques will mean noobs have a chance. Technical skill is not the only reason pros are pros. Mindgames > noobs.

 

[Kunato]

Wavedashing and L-Canceling might be out... but mindgames are still in. That's what will keep the gap between noobs and pros the way it is. It's laughable to see people post about how no advanced techniques will mean noobs have a chance. Technical skill is not the only reason pros are pros. Mindgames > noobs.

It seems like you semi-direct your post to my earlier reply to this thread. Sorry if you didn't, but I'll reply to it anyways.

The removal of advanced techs helps me a lot. I've played SSB64 and Melee very much, and therefore look at myself as a "pro casual". Even if I've never bothered learning myself advanced techniques doesn't mean that I don't have a brain. I have pretty good reflexes and "mindgames", and I am therefore good at adapting to many situations. The only thing that parted me from a competetive player was that I never used advanced techniques. Now that the most common and prevailing advanced techniques are gone, I can be on par with earlier competitive players.

Sorry if my posts sounds rude, I listened to the Final Destination music while typing.

 

[Blatherskite]

It's funny because the mental game is what suffers the most from a lack of ATs in Brawl. The ATs themselves were not important. Rather it was the fact that they enhanced the mental game. L-cancelling allowed you to move faster and required everyone to think faster. Wavedashing allowed you to play more mind games, as was the case with dash dancing as well. Land cancelling and a plethora of other ATs allowed what would otherwise be low tier garbage to stand a chance in competitive play.

The fact is, as of right now at least, the mental game is DEAD in Brawl. You better pray to god that ppl find stuff, because this game is looking dead without ATs.

Of course, we still have characters with barely any lag time on their attacks anyway, like Marth. So maybe we can salvage a competitive game devoted entirely to Marth! oh joy

 

[zergman]

Many threads have been posted stating the importance of advanced techniques in brawl. Many people seem to be worried the gap will close between casual and advanced players.

There is no logic to these thoughts.

What separates the good from the bad, the pros from the friendlies, is the mind. Simple as that. A professional player doesn't need advanced techniques. They don't need Wavedashing (Gimpyfish), they don't need L-Canceling (explained below), and they don't need the myriad of character-specific techniques. Those do make for an interesting game, but when you really get down to it, the game is all about smarts. Being a step ahead, planning, spacing, etc.

If you feel as though the removal of advanced techniques will hinder you, you're not an advanced player. Simple as that. I'm a Luigi player, so I'm feeling the brunt of losing wavedashing right there with all of you. I also love using Marth and Falco... shffls and shine cancels are important to my game too. But when it comes down to it, I can beat a casual player without using any of that, simply because I'm better at the core of the game.

As for the loss of L-cancelling... name me an advanced player who doesn't L-cancel every single aerial. It's standard in the game. Anyone worth their salt does it. The few times they arbitrarily slip up does not determine their skill. So, in a metagame where everyone does it, why not just remove it? One less button push. Considering L-cancelling did the same thing every time, and everyone used it, it wasn't exactly separating the wheat from the chaff. It was the first and most important technique people learned.

People argue that this is going to cause advanced players to sink to the level of advanced players. It's not. It's simply going to put people on equal footing--at least until more are discovered in brawl. How can you possibly claim to be better than someone if you're not on equal footing?

Welcome to Brawl. Time to Mindgamez.

**clap**

What I don't get is how everyone gets upset by the lack of advance techs. First they probably will find new ones. Even if they don't you can still tell a difference between guys that know how to play and don't. It's not just mind, its also hand/eye cordination. I always thought of l-canceling in the same way as someone using an exploit in the code. The lag after certain moves is there by design so that more powerful moves have a drawback if they don't connect.

 

[Blatherskite]

l-cancelling preserved the relationship between strong attacks and lag while still making the game suck less

 

[Dark Sonic]

I know what you're saying, but the game can be evened out in other ways. The "super armor" seems to work reasonably well. Giving the slow characters high weight and fast hitstun recovery has worked remarkably well--i.e. Ike. I see what you're saying, but I think this game took a different approach.

If they were trying to take that approach then they really didn't do that good of a job. Ike still sucks, and can be grabbed out of his super armor, and doesn't have enough of it anyway. It would've just been more effective to speed him up through some kind of lag cancel. Case in point, Gannondorf in melee

Depth is not reliant on the number of difficult techniques. If that's the case, a game like tekken, with difficult million-button combos, is far deeper than smash and thus mroe worthy of your time. Depth in a game relies more on your ability to be better than someone without all those techniques. Case in point: Halo 3. There are no techniques or glitches to take advantage of (at least, none that particularly help), and yet the multiplayer is incredibly deep and satisfying because of its ability to distinguish the good from the bad merely by determining who the better player is mentally. Who makes the better decisions? Who reacts best under pressure? Who uses what they have to their advantage the best?

No, depth is not reliant on the number of dificult techniques, it relies on the number of options said techniques introduce. It relies on what you can do with those techniques that you couldn't do before. Dashdancing provided quick and effective feints and had no reason to be removed. Wavedashing provided many more spacing options. The techniques don't have to be hard, they have to do something that gives you more options to work with when fighting. Don't compare Halo to Smash. Halo is a shooting game, while smash is a fighter. Now if you compare Halo 3 to Halo 2, you'll find that a lot of people considered Halo 2 deeper because of the advance techniques, like BXR and Double shotting.

This argument is a little weak--we've seen edgeguarding to be possible, but more difficult. I'd argue this adds depth to the game. I don't think there's any merit in beating someone because you pushed them off the edge at 10% with fox and then shine spiked them two frames before their ledge invincibility activated.

You mean it's okay for characters to be able to grab the ledge from a full character space away, and be able to airdodge with no negative consequences if you go off the stage to try to hit them? While I admit that certain edgeguards were over the top (Fox, Marth, ect.) they made it harder for everyone to edgeguard. And by the way, Fox's shinespike is pretty easy to avoid. Edgeguarding in melee was easy enough to force people to learn how to deal with it. That made the game deeper, because then people started countering edgeguards with...edgeguards. If fox went off the stage to shinespike you, you'd just fastfall and hit him afterwards with your up B. But, what if he tricked you into fast falling and then just grabbed the ledge. But what if you didn't fall for the trick and used this as an opportunity to just recover onto the stage. If edgeguarding was more difficult, complex situations like this wouldn't arise, and the game wouldn't be as challenging.

But we really weren't on equal footing. For example--I'm sure that nowhere in the national rules of tennis does it say that you can't have a tennis racket with an M16 installed. If one player notices this, and exploits it against all of his opponents by shooting and killing them before they serve, they are not on equal footing. Sure, the opponents can all install guns and the game becomes quick-draw, but then it's no longer tennis.

True, but I'm sure a rule would pop up as soon as anyone tried.

Here's another example, lets take pivoting. Pivoting basically allows you to space any attack very quickly. You can pivot any attack in the game, and it's actually superior to wavedashing. However, how many people actually use pivoting instead of wavedashing. It was noticed a while ago, but no one really picked it up, and they did just fine. But, that's because they chose not to learn it, and the ones that did learn it reaped the benifits. Sure, it only gave a slight advantage over the ones who couldn't do it effectively, but they could've easily learned it, too. Would you call the playing field uneven? I wouldn't, because the other players simply chose to ignore an opportunity that was given to them.

True, but they also limit options. If two professionals are playing against each other, do you really think one of them can "not do" any of those advanced techniques? They don't have an option but to use them. I'd argue they limit people more than they help. you can't not L-cancel. You can't not wavedash (depending on the character, obviously). You will lose.

Aniki doesn't wavedash, Ken rarely wavedashes, and they seem to do just fine. Most of the advance techs don't actually give you an advantage mearly by performing them (L-canceling is the only exception) and there are indeed cases when you would't want to use them. Let's say you're Marth and you just hit someone's shield with a fair. Without advance techs you can:
1.Run up and try to grab them if they're still shielding (they can dodge this)
2.Retreat
3.Use another attack if your in range (you have very limited spacing options)
4.Do nothing
With advance techs you can do all of the above plus
1.Dash dance to avoid their shield grab (if you've mispaced)
2.Dash and pivot a grab behind them.
3. Dash in and wavedash back as a feint
4. Use pivoting to space another attack
5. Shffle a nair to land behind them for further mixups
6. ????
7. PROFIT.

So the vast majority of advance techs (L-canceling being the only exception) do indeed add options, and are in fact situational. They don't automatically make you win, but they just give you more options to work with.

And it's perfectly fair for someone that takes the time to learn advantageous tactics to have an advantage anyway. And when I'm talking about increasing options, I'm not talking about button presses. I'm talking about opening up more strategies to which these techniques can be applied, like giving Knights the ability to move over pieces in chess, or allowing mounted units to use the rest of their movement in Fire Emblem, or allowing you to grab in midair in Narutimate Accel. They add more strategy to the game.

The game, to me, seems slower on the whole. And I've already commented on slower characters above.

While characters' movements may be slower, you should notice that most attacks are quicker (with the exception of slow characters like Ike and Gannondorf.) Marth's attacks are faster than they were in melee (after L-canceling no less). Metaknight's uair has less lag than Shiek's jab. This game isn't slower, this game is polarized. You've got a group of really good characters (the fast ones), and a group of really bad ones.

 

[Ekul]

But we really weren't on equal footing. For example--I'm sure that nowhere in the national rules of tennis does it say that you can't have a tennis racket with an M16 installed. If one player notices this, and exploits it against all of his opponents by shooting and killing them before they serve, they are not on equal footing. Sure, the opponents can all install guns and the game becomes quick-draw, but then it's no longer tennis.

You might find killing people in sports highly against the law and therefore against the rules

 

[Hitzel]

The main gripe is not with the playing field of advanced vs casuals somehow being evened out (because it won't be), but that the resulting play between advanced players of close skill will be excessively campy and not as fun with seemingly less viable offensive and maneuverability options.

I'm quoting this statement because I strongly agree with it.

 

[Blatherskite]

I'm quoting this statement because I strongly agree with it.

I'm going to quote you just for quoting a statement that couldn't be more true.

 

[Dark Sonic]

**clap**

What I don't get is how everyone gets upset by the lack of advance techs. First they probably will find new ones. Even if they don't you can still tell a difference between guys that know how to play and don't. It's not just mind, its also hand/eye cordination. I always thought of l-canceling in the same way as someone using an exploit in the code. The lag after certain moves is there by design so that more powerful moves have a drawback if they don't connect.

Yeah, but the designers also messed those lag times up, and L-canceling actually fixed it. And the designers also put L-canceling in on purpose.

What I don't get is why people assume this is directed towards casual players. The competative players know that we will still be better. That is not the point. The point is that we will lose the depth of fighting each other. Yes we will still have better mindgames than random n00bs, yes we will still be able to develop mindgames, but we've also lost a lot of mindgame oportunities to use against each other. I don't care if there are no "advance techniques", I care if there is a way to quickly move in and out of my opponents range to intice them to attack. I care if there is a safe way to attack a blocking opponent with no negative effects to me, so that they can't just play defensive all day. I care if there is a way to counter attack that said approach, but not by directly using the method it was supposed to counter. I want a way to be able to attack my opponent no matter where they DI, provided I use the right attack to set it up. I care if there's a way to change that DI, and trick my opponent in order to break that devestating combo. I want a way to make devestating combos possible but also breakable with a single mistake or misprediction. If you have an option for every situation (some options can cover more than one) then mindgames can develop on a much larger scale.

 

[Blatherskite]

What's sad is that this game would have been alright if it just kept the l-cancelling method from E4all.

 

[Adi]

Yup, Sakurai's clear intent is to dumb down the game, there's no going around that.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well, air vs. land is very balanced. And we still have L-cancelling (automatic and not automatic at the same time [half the lag is automaticall taken away, but by doing "real" L-cancelling you take away 1/3rd to 1/2 more]). We got wavelanding. For once air vs. land is almost perfectly balanced. Until we get our hands on the game instead of watching Japanese players (they all suck, lol!) who haven't played the game before and won't actually get to a "skillful level" for 3 to 4 months (same with us), we still know nothing about Brawl. Stop assuming, and wait until around November and December when we FIND TONS OF DEPTH! Mindgames are still in, and that's all we need (lol).

The people who know how to wavedash will continue to beat those who can't, and the best player wins 99% of the time. In the end, simplicity isn't always so simple. Case in point: smash 64 and Melee. More depth is in there, and most of the Japanese players are playing casual. Again, unless we see GOOD AND COMPETITVE JAPANESE PLAYERS PLAYING BRAWL, we won't know SQWAT!

 

[NES n00b]

Does not know what he is talking about, but is arrogant as always anyways.

I can mindgame you in Naurato, but it is still a really stupid game. And if you think it is a tatical game because you have less viable strats, then you are an idiot. You never played tourney Melee obviously and you should not be talking about competitive fighting games ever. You are no more different then the people who say "Melee turned into a contest of how far you can wavedash and could spam attack everywherez. Therefore, Brawl having none of these things make it a thinking man's game. lolz"Please do not bring your arrogant **** in here, again. Thank you.

Soon, people are going to be arguing that Checkers is a more thinking man's game than Chess.

 

[S2]

While I agree that good players could win without advanced techs, the fun of advanced stuff is the fact that it opens up new mindgames.
.

 

[Johnknight1]

Sorta S2. The fun of mindgames and advance techs is it makes AN ENTIRELY NEW GAME! It changes the way we think, move, and do things. It opens more windows. It allows more dominance for the best of the best, and you to do things with the game engine you didn't think were possible. It allows you to bend everything, and it opens doors to new strategies, and thousands of ways to reinvent how each character is played. It allows two competitve players using the same character to play as if they were using diffrent characters, and use diffrent advantages and edges the sed character has. It redefines how the game can be play, and how it is played, forever. Each tech can lead to sooo much diffrence in the game, a lot of you probably can't even imagine it. If there is a way to do a qucik and easy to pull off combo with each character, the game evolves to levels no one previously thought possible. That is the depth of (advanced) techs.

 

[Blatherskite]

Well, air vs. land is very balanced. And we still have L-cancelling (automatic and not automatic at the same time [half the lag is automaticall taken away, but by doing "real" L-cancelling you take away 1/3rd to 1/2 more]). We got wavelanding. For once air vs. land is almost perfectly balanced. Until we get our hands on the game instead of watching Japanese players (they all suck, lol!) who haven't played the game before and won't actually get to a "skillful level" for 3 to 4 months (same with us), we still know nothing about Brawl. Stop assuming, and wait until around November and December when we FIND TONS OF DEPTH! Mindgames are still in, and that's all we need (lol).

The people who know how to wavedash will continue to beat those who can't, and the best player wins 99% of the time. In the end, simplicity isn't always so simple. Case in point: smash 64 and Melee. More depth is in there, and most of the Japanese players are playing casual. Again, unless we see GOOD AND COMPETITVE JAPANESE PLAYERS PLAYING BRAWL, we won't know SQWAT!

where the hoola did u get ur info from

 

[Dark Sonic]

I can mindgame you in Naurato, but it is still a really stupid game. And if you think it is a tatical game because you have less viable strats, then you are an idiot. You never played tourney Melee obviously and you should not be talking about competitive fighting games ever. You are no more different then the people who say "Melee turned into a contest of how far you can wavedash and could spam attack everywherez. Therefore, Brawl having none of these things make it a thinking man's game. lolz"Please do not bring your arrogant **** in here, again. Thank you.

Soon, people are going to be arguing that Checkers is a more thinking man's game than Chess.

Which Naruto game? Because if your talking about Ultimate Ninja 3 and up then I have news for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHBCH3HaPXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSklc30udD8
http://www.shishi-rendan.com/showthread.php?t=321 skip the first video here, because Konohamaru it the equivalent of Pichu (joke character not designed to be good).


It's a lot deeper than you think buddy. But at the same time it supports your arguement, so don't flame me for liking Naruto or something.

The series got deeper in the later games because advance techniques were added.

Though I am feeling a little more optimistic now that we know Fox trotting and pivoting are in brawl. Put them together and you've just made effective dash dancing.

 

[NES n00b]

Which Naruto game? Because if your talking about Ultimate Ninja 3 and up then I have news for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHBCH3HaPXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSklc30udD8
http://www.shishi-rendan.com/showthread.php?t=321 skip the first video here, because Konohamaru it the equivalent of Pichu (joke character not designed to be good).


It's a lot deeper than you think buddy. But at the same time it supports your arguement, so don't flame me for liking Naruto or something.

The series got deeper in the later games because advance techniques were added.

Though I am feeling a little more optimistic now that we know Fox trotting and pivoting are in brawl. Put them together and you've just made effective dash dancing.

Talking about the old ones. Still, the one you are talking about is still not as deep as Melee. At least Naurato tries to make the game more deep like Sakurai did before with SSB to Melee (things were added and not taken away, get it, GET IT! ha).

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

FACT, many advanced techniques in melee took well over a year to discover-FACT, this game has been out for half a week-FACT, there are 52 weeks in a year-FACT, topics like this currently don't deserve to exist.

 

[PukeTShirt]

I think another thing we need to consider is that since the metagame for melee got so advanced, people are going to be SEARCHING this game for ATs, not just running into them like melee. So hopefully things will pick up and the metagame will advance quickly.

 

[tutata]

Many threads have been posted stating the importance of advanced techniques in brawl. Many people seem to be worried the gap will close between casual and advanced players.

There is no logic to these thoughts.

What separates the good from the bad, the pros from the friendlies, is the mind. Simple as that. A professional player doesn't need advanced techniques. They don't need Wavedashing (Gimpyfish), they don't need L-Canceling (explained below), and they don't need the myriad of character-specific techniques. Those do make for an interesting game, but when you really get down to it, the game is all about smarts. Being a step ahead, planning, spacing, etc.

If you feel as though the removal of advanced techniques will hinder you, you're not an advanced player. Simple as that. I'm a Luigi player, so I'm feeling the brunt of losing wavedashing right there with all of you. I also love using Marth and Falco... shffls and shine cancels are important to my game too. But when it comes down to it, I can beat a casual player without using any of that, simply because I'm better at the core of the game.

As for the loss of L-cancelling... name me an advanced player who doesn't L-cancel every single aerial. It's standard in the game. Anyone worth their salt does it. The few times they arbitrarily slip up does not determine their skill. So, in a metagame where everyone does it, why not just remove it? One less button push. Considering L-cancelling did the same thing every time, and everyone used it, it wasn't exactly separating the wheat from the chaff. It was the first and most important technique people learned.

People argue that this is going to cause advanced players to sink to the level of advanced players. It's not. It's simply going to put people on equal footing--at least until more are discovered in brawl. How can you possibly claim to be better than someone if you're not on equal footing?

Welcome to Brawl. Time to Mindgamez.

So your telling me M2K is not an advance player?