Rate their Chances: the DLC Edition. Day: 192: The final day

[A Distant Demon]

It's certainly possible

blue's argument in a nutshell. . .

Isn't it possible that you can change the rating though? Wouldn't Sakurai be more concerned with CERO more than ESRB?
And there is a game that demonstrates that it's possible to change the rating when you buy the DLC:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/japa...lc-to-play-the-evil-within-uncensored/0135145

It's certainly possible that he can change the rating a bit to get Bayonetta's stripping mechanic in the game if Sakurai really wanted her in the game if that becomes a problem.

.

you are now arguing that Sakurai might attempt to raise the rating of SMASH BROS one of nintendo's biggest sellers, for one low level character.
smash is speocifically being less realistic in presentation in this game and you expect them to just bump up the rating as if it has no consequences. unlikely at best.

Even then, the exact definition of partial nudity is the partial showing of breasts and the bottom parts, and yeah I don't think it would be considered that as long as it doesn't strip to the obvious points. Shed along the lines of Zero Suit Samus' short suit, and I'm pretty sure it would be ok in many rating systems, it would still stay true to her character..

again sexualization != skin showing.
stripping to waht she does is a hell of a lot more than just wearing athletic clothing. there is a huge difference in context.

 

[Pacack]

A little bit of common sense, and how lots of third-parties getting added as DLC is absurdly unlikely.

Blue, I believe that what False is asking you is why. You've kept saying things like that without giving any reasons. According to you, they simply "are likely" to be added. But why is that the case?

 

[FalKoopa]

OBJECTION!
Isn't it possible that you can change the rating though? Wouldn't Sakurai be more concerned with CERO more than ESRB?
And there is a game that demonstrates that it's possible to change the rating when you buy the DLC:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/japa...lc-to-play-the-evil-within-uncensored/0135145

It's certainly possible that he can change the rating a bit to get Bayonetta's stripping mechanic in the game if Sakurai really wanted her in the game if that becomes a problem.

Just to accommodate a 3rd party, they're definitely going to change the rating which they tried so hard to get in the first place, right?

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?

Sakurai is just as concerned with ESRB as CERO. The Tharja throphy was removed because of ESRB, I believe.

 

[Zerp]

I feel that people are forgetting how risky of a move this is on Nintendo's part, even if it didn't raise the rating, would people actually be okay with it? This whole controversy pretty much already shows us the answer: it would be highly divisive, and would definitely impact sales. It would be a terrible, and I do mean TERRIBLE PR move to add Bayonetta to the game.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Without concrete evidence to support statements, Blue, your arguments tend to sink like a ship. Any argument revolving around the Ballot, for example, is rather hard to justify because we don't know ANYTHING about the current results. Bayonetta is probably sitting in the lower levels of the current results. But I can't prove that, can I? So I don't make it a centerpiece of the argument.

As for the rating, it has to be suitable for every rating system. PAL, CERO and ESRB are all equally important. Toning Bayonetta down might please one system and not the other. PAL in particular has been rather strict with ratings. So if it doesn't suit everyone, it's not happening.

 

[Aetheri]

OBJECTION!
Isn't it possible that you can change the rating though? Wouldn't Sakurai be more concerned with CERO more than ESRB?
And there is a game that demonstrates that it's possible to change the rating when you buy the DLC:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/japa...lc-to-play-the-evil-within-uncensored/0135145

It's certainly possible that he can change the rating a bit to get Bayonetta's stripping mechanic in the game if Sakurai really wanted her in the game if that becomes a problem.

Even then, the exact definition of partial nudity is the partial showing of breasts and the bottom parts, and yeah I don't think it would be considered that as long as it doesn't strip to the obvious points. Shed along the lines of Zero Suit Samus' short suit, and I'm pretty sure it would be ok in many rating systems, it would still stay true to her character.


A little bit of common sense, and how lots of third-parties getting added as DLC is absurdly unlikely.


I'm not sure where you are going with this. Are you saying it's minuscule evidence?


Yeah, he'd probably limited his choices to the most popular to being notably, decently requested. And Bayonetta is among one of those choices that has been likely considered with the ballot running.

Ok Blue now you're stepping over some boundaries here suggesting Sakurai would be willing to raise the rating of the game (AFTER MAKING A POINT OF LOWERING FROM PREVIOUS GAMES) just to add one character to the lineup...if this game were rated T adding Bayonetta would not be as big of an issue and you'd have a case, but seeing as Sakurai had already put in effort to make this game accessible for a younger crowd...this argument is pretty much just grasping at straws now...

 

[Wolfie557]

Just to accommodate a 3rd party, they're definitely going to change the rating which they tried so hard to get in the first place, right?

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?

Sakurai is just as concerned with ESRB as CERO. The Tharja throphy was removed because of ESRB, I believe.

I agree they will definitely keep the current rating and I disagree with Pikmin that they can increase it JUST for her.

However in Bayonetta's case.....it is not hard to make sure she fits in the pegi 12 rating. She already is less exposed in normal clothes than certain characters and a certain character already has a midly suggestive taunt. Bayonetta has tons of taunt material that is mildly suggestive, and only a select few of her moves, often exaggerated during the few cut scenes with zoomed in camera, won't fit in smash. Vast majority will work and those are her main moves anyway.

Toning her down simply by not making her strip during wicked weaves/demon summoning but still having the same hair effects as in her games is the best solution imo. It will practically not hinder her character. She will stay the same essentially.

About the guns... it wasn't hard for Sakurai to keep to his belief and not use guns with Snake. I don't see why it would be much harder with Bayonetta. The guns can be used as an visual/sound effect during her attacks for punching/kicking with the same flashy stuff that appear in her games and which all fighters use anyway......which would cover most of the very tiny bullets.

 

[Pacack]

Bayonetta:

Chance: .5%
Want: Abstain

 

[FalKoopa]

I agree they will definitely keep the current rating and I disagree with Pikmin that they can increase it JUST for her.

However in Bayonetta's case.....it is not hard to make sure she fits in the pegi 12 rating. She already is less exposed in normal clothes. Toning her down simply by not making her strip during wicked weaves/demon summoning but still having the same hair effects as in her games is the best solution imo. It will practically not hinder her character. She will stay the same essentially.

About the guns... it wasn't hard for Sakurai to keep to his belief and not use guns with Snake. I don't see why it would be much harder with Bayonetta. The guns can be used as an visual/sound effect during her attacks for punching/kicking with the same flashy stuff that appear in her games and which all fighters use anyway......which would cover most of the very tiny bullets.

I can't really comment on how they're going to tone it down, but I keep hearing things like 'Sensuality is a part of the character (true to some extent) and toning it down would make her not-Bayonetta and would be disrespectful to the source material', etc.

I'll admit that from the trailers of Bayonetta, I often have a hard time understanding what the hell is even going on, so eh.

 

[Wolfie557]

I can't really comment on how they're going to tone it down, but I keep hearing things like 'Sensuality is a part of the character (true to some extent) and toning it down would make her not-Bayonetta and would be disrespectful to the source material', etc.

I'll admit that from the trailers of Bayonetta, I often have a hard time understanding what the hell is even going on, so eh.

Sometimes I feel like that the people who keep saying that haven't even played her games.

 

[BluePikmin11]

again sexualization != skin showing.
stripping to waht she does is a hell of a lot more than just wearing athletic clothing. there is a huge difference in context.

Hmm...
...

Yeah, now I can see where the unlikeliness comes from now after thinking about it for a while. :/
I tried my best, but I'll concede, for now.

He means that what you said about changing minds is universally applicable to anything.

But I did provide evidence though, isn't the ballot providing the fact that any video-game character can be voted a more justified case than any possible scenario.

Blue, I believe that what False is asking you is why. You've kept saying things like that without giving any reasons. According to you, they simply "are likely" to be added. But why is that the case?

When it comes to third parties for DLC, if he decides to add them, he'll likely go for a small amount of those types of characters and not a large amount because that would basically consume his development costs for DLC and he likely knows that adding too many of them can sway away the the point of Smash.

 

[PSIBoy]

Bayonetta

Chance: .01%. It's either change the rating or remove the... Mature aspects. Plus, being Sega owned if I recall correctly as well as not being iconic further undermines her chances.

Want: 0%. Honestly, I almost never say 0% no matter what I do, because I know that while I may not want or agree with something, others do. But I never played the games, not planning on it, and given everything I've heard I think that Nintendo would honestly be better off not including her, which I don't think for any other character in the game or heavily debated on.

 

[Pacack]

But I did provide evidence though, isn't the ballot providing the fact that any video-game character can be voted a more justified case than any possible scenario.

Any character can be voted for.

...And?

That doesn't mean that every character that can be voted for has a chance. I can vote for characters that don't even fit the requirements for a Smash Bros. fighter (see: Shrek, Steve, Goku), but that doesn't mean that they are going to happen. Even if Sakurai sees the demand, characters with too many obstacles in their way just will not be considered. Period. In Bayonetta's case, her mature nature, third party status, and relative obscurity are hurdles that most of us just don't see her getting over, regardless of how high up she may or may not be on the poll.

When it comes to third parties for DLC, if he decides to add them, he'll likely go for a small amount of those types of characters and not a large amount because that would basically consume his development costs for DLC and he likely knows that adding too many of them can sway away the the point of Smash.

...That is a negative for third parties unless I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[PK_Wonder]

Ohhhhhhh boy, a variety of opinions today. Fortunately, it seems like most people do agree with her chances being low, even if they completely disagree with the factors that do(n't) make them low.

I'm just going to approach this as a stream of consciousness today; and decide her rating once I've made all of my points out loud.

-One thing about Bayonetta is that it's hard to truly call her truly sexualized. She's sexual, it's part of her personality. She actively tries to be sexy and playfully seductive. That's not an argument in her favor at all, no. She's not just from an M-rated game. She is a vibrantly mature character, from a game with lots of sexual and religious themes.

-As others have stated, however, it is possible for her to be "toned down," by remaining faithful to the character, and making her playful. Palutena has a very playful taunt and overall smug goddess attitude, does she not? But she's not in any way revealing or seductive at a simple glance. Conversely, a character can be "sexy," as some would call ZSS, while not being playful whatsoever.

-Bayonetta is a third party character, specifically one that is not a gaming all-star on the level of Mega Man/Sonic/Pac-Man/Snake/Ryu, which greatly lowers her chances in general.

-Nintendo did actively publish, strongly advertise, and incorporate tons of Nintendo references into her game, however. Nintendo directly is involved with and cares about the Bayonetta IP. and while it wasn't a system seller for most, it sold well enough to justify it and at least the brainstorming of a third game, and was critically acclaimed (similar factors were enough for Shulk, right?)

-She does have vocal fans, being a popular, critically acclaimed cult status character.

This game is rated E10+, Brawl was rated T. It was OK to include Snake in a T rated game, but including an M rated character in an E10 game, especially one like Bayonetta who is much harder to censor, would be much more difficult to implement. DLC has to be within the boundaries of the ESRB rating given, which Bayonetta fails in this regard as she would reference an M rated game. Snake's presence in Brawl was probably what made Brawl T rated in the first place, because it referenced an M rated game. Also, Snake's censoring is a lot different from censoring Bayonetta. Real world weapons were removed, but explosives were kept in, which did match with his character. Bayonetta would still need to be censored, and even more so thanks to her provocative moves.

I agree with most everything you said, but to be fair, Melee was rated T as well.

Melee was rated T for "Comic Mischief, Mild Violence" and Brawl for "Cartoon Violence, Crude Humor."

Meanwhile, Sm4sh is rated E10+ for "Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, Mild Suggestive Themes." This leads me to believe Snake being in Brawl neither raised it to a T, nor did Snake not being in Sm4sh lower it. It just seems like, based on the content indicators, that society now has a more tolerable threshold for exposing kids to violence at younger ages now. The games aren't any more violent than they were before now, but "Mild Violence" has become "Cartoon" and unlike in Brawl, there are even "Suggestive Themes" now.

--------------
Will post chances, want, predictions, and nominations soon.

 

[Delzethin]

Melee was rated T for "Comic Mischief, Mild Violence" and Brawl for "Cartoon Violence, Crude Humor."

Meanwhile, Sm4sh is rated E10+ for "Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, Mild Suggestive Themes." This leads me to believe Snake being in Brawl neither raised it to a T, nor did Snake not being in Sm4sh lower it. It just seems like, based on the content indicators, that society now has a more tolerable threshold for exposing kids to violence at younger ages now. The games aren't any more violent than they were before now, but "Mild Violence" has become "Cartoon" and unlike in Brawl, there are even "Suggestive Themes" now.

For what it's worth, Smash 4's overall aesthetics are brighter and flashier than previous games. Compared to Melee or Brawl, the violence looks a lot more cartoony and less realistic.

 

[Pacack]

I agree with most everything you said, but to be fair, Melee was rated T as well.

Melee was rated T for "Comic Mischief, Mild Violence" and Brawl for "Cartoon Violence, Crude Humor."

Meanwhile, Sm4sh is rated E10+ for "Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, Mild Suggestive Themes." This leads me to believe Snake being in Brawl neither raised it to a T, nor did Snake not being in Sm4sh lower it. It just seems like, based on the content indicators, that society now has a more tolerable threshold for exposing kids to violence at younger ages now. The games aren't any more violent than they were before now, but "Mild Violence" has become "Cartoon" and unlike in Brawl, there are even "Suggestive Themes" now.

I agree with this 100%. In more recent years, games with violence are less taboo and games with suggestive themes are more taboo. It's just changing culture, really.

 

[Deleted member]

OBJECTION!
Isn't it possible that you can change the rating though? Wouldn't Sakurai be more concerned with CERO more than ESRB?
And there is a game that demonstrates that it's possible to change the rating when you buy the DLC:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/japa...lc-to-play-the-evil-within-uncensored/0135145

It's certainly possible that he can change the rating a bit to get Bayonetta's stripping mechanic in the game if Sakurai really wanted her in the game if that becomes a problem.

Even then, the exact definition of partial nudity is the partial showing of breasts and the bottom parts, and yeah I don't think it would be considered that as long as it doesn't strip to the obvious points. Shed along the lines of Zero Suit Samus' short suit, and I'm pretty sure it would be ok in many rating systems, it would still stay true to her character.

Let's look at the evidence that you have just presented.

What interests me is this line:
"However, that would limit the sales and advertising, so we’d lose the opportunity to reach out to as many customers as possible."
Now let me ask you this.
If this DLC would raise the rating of that game, and thus limit sales and advertising... wouldn't Bayonetta's inclusion in the game do the same?

In fact, I think this brings up yet another reason why Nintendo wouldn't include Bayonetta!

If Bayonetta was included, her mature nature would raise the game's rating!
This would be a detriment to possibly one area or even all areas. The point still stands though...

The increase in Smash's rating can and will prevent sales for Nintendo, which is a major detriment considering the Wii U's state.

Still, when she strips, it's practically her whole body. That is a lot more than some shorts or a swimsuit.
And why would Sakurai go out of his way to raise the rating of the game for one character? At that point, wouldn't it not be considered worth it?

I agree with most everything you said, but to be fair, Melee was rated T as well.

Melee was rated T for "Comic Mischief, Mild Violence" and Brawl for "Cartoon Violence, Crude Humor."

Meanwhile, Sm4sh is rated E10+ for "Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, Mild Suggestive Themes." This leads me to believe Snake being in Brawl neither raised it to a T, nor did Snake not being in Sm4sh lower it. It just seems like, based on the content indicators, that society now has a more tolerable threshold for exposing kids to violence at younger ages now. The games aren't any more violent than they were before now, but "Mild Violence" has become "Cartoon" and unlike in Brawl, there are even "Suggestive Themes" now.

Well of course. I agree. Smash's style and aesthetics makes the fights look a lot more colorful and less "realistic" so to say.
As with suggestive themes, I know why Smash 4 got that rating, though I argue that Bayonetta could step beyond some boundaries due to her nature as a character.

 

[Leafeon523]

I don't have time to address all the counter-arguments that have sprung up, so I'm going to answer what I can.

1. "The developer wants Bayonetta in smash!"
That's a minimal bonus at best. The developers of Super Meat Boy want him in smash. inti creates wants Gunvolt in smash. Heck, the creators of Shantae are willing to create false hype to try to merit support for her. So why would this influence Sakurai in any way? I really doubt most companies with any sort of association with Nintendo would say no to having a character in smash.

2. Anything involving the game's rating being altered:
@ FalKoopa said it best:

Just to accommodate a 3rd party, they're definitely going to change the rating which they tried so hard to get in the first place, right?

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?

Sakurai is just as concerned with ESRB as CERO. The Tharja throphy was removed because of ESRB, I believe.

3. She's so unique!"
But there are countless first and second party characters that are also extremely unique. Here's ten off of the top of my head:
Ridley
K.rool
Isaac
Andy
Ray
Marshal
Bandana Dee
Captain Toad
Isa Jo
Takamaru

And not a single one of these characters would require the permission of another company or a potential rating change for the game,

Also, R.I.P. @Sid-cada 's internet

 

[StormC]

Remember when a third party character was in the top ten requests for Brawl and didn't even get considered?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Any character can be voted for.

...And?

That doesn't mean that every character that can be voted for has a chance. I can vote for characters that don't even fit the requirements for a Smash Bros. fighter (see: Shrek, Steve, Goku), but that doesn't mean that they are going to happen. Even if Sakurai sees the demand, characters with too many obstacles in their way just will not be considered. Period. In Bayonetta's case, her mature nature, third party status, and relative obscurity are hurdles that most of us just don't see her getting over, regardless of how high up she may or may not be on the poll.

He did state video game characters could only be voted on the poll, Steve would be like Banjo&Kazooie's case here, at the least Bayonetta isn't of that "owned by Nintendo's competitor" case to make her impossible.

 

[Pacack]

He did state video game characters could only be voted on the poll, Steve would be like Banjo&Kazooie's case here, at the least Bayonetta isn't of that "owned by Nintendo's competitor" case to make her impossible.

You glanced over the point of my post there, though. The realms of possibility are not limiting my ability to vote whatsoever. I can vote whatever I want to.

Doesn't mean it's going to happen just because votes are coming in. See what I mean?

 

[LIQUID12A]

But I did provide evidence though, isn't the ballot providing the fact that any video-game character can be voted a more justified case than any possible scenario.

Again.

Limits based on logical, common sense.

There are probably thousands of kids influenced by Miiverse voting for Shrek. Or Goku. But to provide a more logical, but just as impossible example:

Say over two million votes come in for Sackboy from LittleBigPlanet. Higher than King K. Rool, or Isaac or any highly popular candidate. This being a justified case, voting for a video game character, does not excuse Sackboy from having a ton of issues to pass before making it into Smash, being that it's not a Nintendo character, not from a Nintendo console, already in a fighting game, and worst of all, third party(in context).

Voting for any video game character does not mean that there aren't some parameters to follow.

 

[Putuk]

Bayonetta would be a ZSS clone.

 

[Drason]

Bayonetta
Chance: 0%
Its one thing to hold guns but another to literally show so much skin and innuendos in your game there is no chance of this ever happening, I mean there are characters that touch themselves in this game, and there angels let that sink in for a moment
Want: 5%
Eeeh, If we got another SEGA rep that wasn't Sonic, I'd prefer Nights and Amigo
Nominations
TalimX5(SoulCalibur)

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'm aware of the paramaters , anyone who is a third party already has an obstacle to go through with agreements and deals with the company that owns the character.

You glanced over the point of my post there, though. The realms of possibility are not limiting my ability to vote whatsoever. I can vote whatever I want to.

Doesn't mean it's going to happen just because votes are coming in. See what I mean?

So it's another "just because x doesn't mean likely"? I know that already. I'd like to end the debate now.

 

[Erureido]

Chance: 15%

Bayonetta is a fairly requested character who has great moveset potential, not to mention she would boost the number of female fighters on the roster. She has a game recently released on the WiiU, making her relevant in today's video game world; said game has received critical acclaim.

Aside from that, I don't think her chances seem entirely bright. Some will bring about the argument that she is too mature because she comes from an M-rated game and wears very suggestive clothing, and that's a compelling argument considering Smash Bros is supposed to be E10+ (even going as far as to remove an entire trophy, Tharja, from Smash Bros because she looked to sexualized despite being popular). However, I think they could work around that by giving her more suitable, E10+ clothes if they really wanted to include Bayonetta into Smash Bros. I think what's really holding her back from joining the roster is the fact Nintendo has been helping out with her games very recently, starting with the second game to be exact. She is also third-party, which prevents her chances from reaching any higher. If anything, I feel like she's one of those characters that'd be better off in Smash 5 than Smash 4.

Want: 40%

I haven't played any of her games yet, and I don't know if I ever will, but I can agree she is an awesome character overall and can definitely be quite a memorable fighter in Smash Bros. Unfortunately, the third party character I want to see join the roster is Professor Layton, so that situation alone puts her at the rating I've given her. I have a feeling she'll probably be up there as one of my most wanted once Smash 5 becomes a reality.

Nominations:

Jean Descole (Professor Layton): x4
Gallade (Pokemon): x1

 

[Wolfie557]

No striping. Yes to hair effects. No striping. Keep colorful guns but have the bullets be visuals/effects/sounds for the normal attacks. Keep clothes on.

There.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Since a certain someone wants me to have my input for her most wanted DLC character, I might as well get this over with for her sake. She better not feel too sad about what I'm about to say since there will be few bias involved for this witch's odds.
BAYONETTA:
CHANCE: 15%

Bayonetta's IP is owned by Sega and the games were developed by Platinum Games with Nintendo owning the publishing rights to the first game? Sounds like a great compilation for a potential Smash character? Well, that ought to get deeper.

She is a third party character and most third parties aren't that easy to be obtained unless they are veterans with massive fan support like say Snake. There's a possibility for more DLC choices that can go down that road though the legal policies to obtain them might be difficult. Her association with Sega indeed troubles her since there are fans that would rather have other Sega creations like Knuckles the Knuckles, Miles Prower, It's No Use the Pothead, Ow the Edge, or even Dr. Pingas Robotnik. So the fact that Sonic himself is in the game and the fans would request these characters, Bayo ought to get more support before she loses to these curries (and human scientist).

Now on to Bayonetta's support, she has a very vocal yet dedicated following due to the sake of her moveset possibilities and the fact that her involvement could boost the sales of future games. I won't deny it, she does have that potential oozing within her if you at least take one of the two games for a spin. Stylish martial arts, gunplay, varied supernatural abilities, other bladed weapons, time manipulation, demonic summons, and many more can make you indefinitely afraid of this witch. Kamiya does have a great relationship with Sakurai and the company does have some ties with nintendo this decade (Wonderful 101 anyone?). He is a pretty nice guy that would be honored to have Bayo or any of his recent creations in Smash as long as you DON'T think about spamming his precious Twitter account (I'll ban all Smash idiots!).

She does have some cons here and there and booooy is this going to be a tough one. Sakurai had stated on a few occasions that he hates the idea of real firearms in Smash, with Solid Snake wasn't allowed to use his non-explosive weapons. Sure many can argue that this rule had been broken a few times, but there are only exceptions if the guns are unrealistic (Diddy Kong's popgun, Fox's blaster, ect) or pixelated (Sheriff's pistol and the Wild Gunmens' weapons). Her guns are close enough to the real deal and sound like them too, but they are a bit on the color side and the bluets themselves are magic nonetheless. Her sexuality is yet another problem given her background as an M rated character like Snake. But Metal Gear itself mostly revolved around controversial material like politics and war while Bayonetta goes beyond that with pole dancing, demonic angels, the infamous iron horse (For the BDSM fanatics out there), over-the-top gore, and hypersexuality that would make the average feminist cry themselves to sleep. res her skin whenever any of her Wicked Weave techniques are involved and it can easily be remedied with minimal nudity a la Anarchy Reigns (Yes, she is playable in this game too). But her other sexual qualities like the leg spreads and whatnot indeed need to be toned down in a way where it matches Palutena's fanservice scene in her trailer and staff twirling. The only problem with that is that Sakurai would rather go with accurate portrayals and going against that would make the character less like themselves (Hence why Ridley will never see the light of day in a roster ). So these last two points are the real problems that sends her to the unlikely side unless they can be solved in an easier way or if her popularity where to explode as the ballot is open.

WANT: 60%

Loved the game and character since they were practically a love letter to the gold old days of Devil May Cry unlike what the games had degraded themselves into (Donte for example). If only Nintendo didn't go for the more kid friendly approach with this game then she would have had a much better chance for her inclusion, same an also be said for the unlikely Black Witch Cia. IF she were to somehow make it through in a possible miracle, then me and my girlfriend would die happy. But again, it's completely unlikely unless he goes back to the days of Melee/Brawl.

PALUTENA'S GUIDANCE: 25%

Nominations: Takamaru x5 #SlashtheVote
Style Savvy x5

 

[PK_Wonder]

Bayonetta Chances - 3.75%

All things considered (see my above pros and cons), the cons outweigh the pros, but she's a curveball that has enough going for her to not be completely dismissed. She's on the radar, but a lot of other characters are moreso.

Want - 50% Bayonetta 1+2 is one of the greatest games on Wii U. Definitely characters I want more, but she's not a bad choice.

predict Guidance Convos - 15%
predict R.O.B. eye bug fix - 75%

nominate - stage pack DLC x5

WE NEED TO DO DLC STAGES OTHER THAN MIIVERSE w/ STAGE PACKS DLC BEFORE E3 WEEK STARTS COME ON GUYS TWO AND A HALF HOURS LEFT

 

[TallT]

nominate - stage pack DLC x5

 

[Ixbran]

If this DLC would raise the rating of that game, and thus limit sales and advertising... wouldn't Bayonetta's inclusion in the game do the same?

Theres this thing where when playing games online there is message that often shows up: "Online Interactions not Rated by ESRB"

They could do that as well here, just apply it to DLC. just include an update to SSB4 so that when the game starts up "Downloadable Content is not included in the Games ESRB Rating"

That way the games base rating can't be effected by anything that's downloadable content, effectively keeping its rating while also allowing Bayonetta to be DLC.

 

[Pacack]

Theres this thing where when playing games online there is message that often shows up: "Online Interactions not Rated by ESRB"

They could do that as well here, just apply it to DLC. just include an update to SSB4 so that when the game starts up "Downloadable Content is not included in the Games ESRB Rating"

That way the games base rating can't be effected by anything that's downloadable content, effectively keeping its rating while also allowing Bayonetta to be DLC.

DLC is rated by someone else, I believe.

 

[4theRECORD]

Bayonetta (Bayonetta)

Chance: 2%

Want: 10%

Conversation prediction:30%
R.O.B. prediction:98%

nomination:Slime(Dragon Quest) x5

 

[Ixbran]

DLC is rated by someone else, I believe.

Well if DLC is given different ratings based on the content, then why not include that as well? The base games Rating is E+10 right? So make it so players are let known that DLC is rated separately. Bayonettas DLC, should they include her, could be given a Teen rating, and players can be notified by these individual ratings via the DLC menue in the Eshop.

 

[Burruni]

Well if DLC is given different ratings based on the content, then why not include that as well? The base games Rating is E+10 right? So make it so players are let known that DLC is rated separately. Bayonettas DLC, should they include her, could be given a Teen rating, and players can be notified by these individual ratings via the DLC menue in the Eshop.

No. That's... not what they mean.
There's a sect of the ESRB that judges what of the game is in line or crosses the line along the line of the given rating (in this case E-10+)
Any content that crosses it is red flagged and must be edited for approval or flat out removed (Tharja Trophy).
The DLC, as it comes separate and in segmented bits, is reviewed by a more remote team on if it falls within the range of the rating. DLC is still BOUND BY THE CORE GAME RATING.

 

[smileMasky]

Bayonetta
Chance 0%
sorry just no... sure she has support but there are so many things keeping her way back. 3rd party, a bit "suggestive". ZSS in Over sexualized because thats not really her character while Bayonetta is. I would like to also add that she would kind of be a ZSS clone in a way. Also we can not change the rating of a game that's already out that would be a whole other issue maybe she could come in as a playable but not this instalment only when it gets an M rating again.

Want 5%
I never played her game I have no real attachment to the characters I have seen game play of it. But not really all that interested in that type of game and hell I love playing beat em ups but theres a lot of stuff happening at once.

Nominations
2x 3rd party 2nds
2x Starman
1x Django

 

[Scamper52596]

nominate - stage pack DLC x5

WE NEED TO DO DLC STAGES OTHER THAN MIIVERSE w/ STAGE PACKS DLC BEFORE E3 WEEK STARTS COME ON GUYS TWO AND A HALF HOURS LEFT

I wish you had said something earlier. I would have given that concept my nominations.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

"I'm not much for the talkative types. How about we have a little fun, instead?"
Please take your time to read through my post. It contains very detailed information regarding her character. If you have trouble reading the flavor text, then please highlight the text as you read along, preferably using TtS software (MS Speech, Speakonia, etc.)

Oh boy, looks like we have a concept half-week! And mine is just edging near the top! What a great way to boost into E3 Week! I guess if we don't get to all of them by Saturday, then we'll tapper them off into the week following E3, presumably at the beginning.

Spoiler: Captain Hotcakes's Ratings History (as of 6/10/15)

Character Chance Ratings

1: Ryu - 97.7%
1: Roy - 97.7%
2: Wolf - 97.5%
3: Professor Layton - 90%
4: Chibi Robo - 65%
5: Rayman - 60%
6: Snake - 55%
7: Inkling - 50%
8: Sceptile - 45%
8: Krystal - 45%
9: Paper Mario: 44.5%
10: Dixie Kong - 43%
11: Wonder Red - 40%
12: Impa - 40.5%
13: Bayonetta - 35%
13: Simon Belmont - 35%
14: Cross - 35.7%
15: Elma - 35.3%
16: Ice Climbers - 30%
16: Captain Toad - 30%
17: Toon Zelda - 29.3%
18: Chorus Kids - 27.5%
19: Magolor - 25%
20: Henry Fleming - 25.7%
21: Spyro - 25.3%
22: Anna - 23%
23: Ivysaur - 23.7%
24: Jibanyan - 22%
25: Squirtle - 22.5%
26: Quote - 21.5%
27: Phoenix Wright - 20%
27: Shovel Knight - 20%
28: Shantae - 20.5%
29: Tetra - 20.3%
30: 9-Volt - 10%
30: Midna & Wolf Link - 10%
31: Lip - 10.5%
32: Geno - 7%
33: Young Link - 6.3%
35: KOS-MOS - 5%
35: Ray - 5%
35: Pichu - 5%
36: Daisy - 5.7%
37: Ridley - 5.5%
38: Monita - 3%

Character Want Ratings

1: Professor Layton - 100%
1: Shovel Knight - 100%
1: Wolf - 100%
2: Bayonetta - 95.3%
3: Simon Belmont - 90.5%
3: Sceptile - 90.5%
4: Shantae - 87%
5: Wonder Red - 86.5%
6: Snake - 85%
6: Impa - 85%
7: Magolor - 85.5%
8: Anna - 80%
8: Ice Climbers - 80%
9: Chorus Kids - 80.5%
10: Jibanyan - 69.7%
11: Chibi Robo - 60%
11: Ryu - 60%
11: Paper Mario: 60%
12: Midna & Wolf Link - 60.5%
13: Phoenix Wright - 55%
14: Ridley - 50%
15: Inkling - 30%
16: Henry Fleming - 30.5%
17: Rayman - 25%
18: Cross - 25.7%
19: Elma - 23%
19: Quote - 23%
20: Krystal - 20%
21: Dixie Kong - 20%
21: Toon Zelda - 20%
22: Tetra - 20.5%
23: Squirtle - 10.7%
23: Ivysaur - 10.7%
24: Geno - 10.5%
24: Roy - 10.5%
25: Spyro - 7%
26: Young Link - 5%
27: Lip - 5.7%
28: Captain Toad - 5.5%
29: Ray - 4.5%
30: KOS-MOS - 3%
31: 9-Volt - 3.5%
32: Monita - 1%
32: Pichu - 1%
32: Daisy - 1%

Concept Chance Ratings

1: DLC Characters Receive Custom Moves - 90.5%
2: DLC Alternate Costumes - 85%
3: 7+ DLC Characters - 80.7%
4: Any NPC Becomes Playable - 65.7%
5: DLC Music Packs - 50.5%
6: Rhythm Heaven Character - 45%
-: New Palutena's Guidance Conversations - ?.?%
-: R.O.B. Eyes Glitch Fix - ?.?%

Concept Want Ratings

1: DLC Characters Receive Custom Moves - 100%
1: DLC Alternate Costumes - 100%
2: DLC Music Packs - 65%
3: Any NPC Becomes Playable - 50.5%
4: 7+ DLC Characters - 45%
5: Rhythm Heaven Character - 40.3%
-: New Palutena's Guidance Conversations - ?.?%
-: R.O.B. Eyes Glitch Fix - ?.?%

Abstains (Inactivity)

King K. Rool
Banjo-Kazooie
Isaac
Bandana Dee
Mach Rider
Dark Samus
Viridi
Zael

Abtsains (Indifference)

Ninten
B.B. Bandit Trio

RATINGS

Bayonetta

Chance - 35%: Bayonetta perhaps has the most precarious case of all characters being considered for Smash DLC. If I had to give you a TL;DR version of it, all of her detractors could be negated in several ways, but it's very questionable whether or not it would be worth the effort.

I'm not going to spend my time rehashing deadhorse arguments surrounding her. So let's just glean over them quickly, because I'm going to use them to infer on my own takes on their details.

"Bayonetta is too sexual for Smash!"

@ BluePikmin11 's original post details how Bayonetta's sexuality is actually quite malleable and can be tweaked to fit an E10+ setting whilst being faithful to the core of her character. Recalling my time playing Bayonetta 2 (or just look up a combo demonstration), Bayonetta would gradually strip on Wicked Weaves and demon summonings only. The progression of her stripping kind of begins along the arms and legs, then going around her torso and abdomen, then being reduced to that revealing one-piece and veil. The picture showing her "fully-stripped" state of her default costume that BluePikmin linked was there only to demonstrate the most extreme example. If that extent of her costume, any extent of fabric can cover the egregious bits around the bosom and crotch. And even then, it depends how far they are willing to go with how quick and easy extending wicked weave attacks, either as Smashes, specials, or even combo extenders, would go with the Smash engine and the creative liberties they could take not even going that order or extent with her stripping. That, or don't even use it at all!

Her personality isn't just defined by her sexuality either, nor is it the main appeal of her games (it's about the flashy action, storylines, and the over-the-top surreal parodies of sexualization and overly-serious game narratives.) Yes, it's a key part of her character. But Bayonetta has demonstrated more than one layer in her character development across both games. She's noted for being a crass, determined deadpan snarker willing to go great lengths for the people she loves (e.g., going through Inferno to save her best friend, Jeanne's, soul). Now, you want something archetypical to reflect through her character interactions? Just have her allure be cheeky and flirtatious. Maybe give her a few sharp-tongued stingers as taunts showing her clever wit (on that note, who wants character specific taunts as Easter Eggs? A different line for every character!)

"Tharja's trophy was cut from Smash 3DS because she was too sexual for an E10+ game!"

I'm really lost on that Tharja trophy cut. This is mainly because they came through the ESRB Leak with no confirmed context for why it was actually cut. We can only infer that it's due to her revealing veil bikini and how little it leaves to the imagination when focusing the camera on her "assets", because of how the screenshots were arranged and the alleged source. I find it odd this would raise some eyebrows, since Tharja's design is no worse than seeing a woman in a bikini at a water park or beach. She's no more revealing than Shantae! Bayonetta, on the other hand, has a more demure outfit and doesn't violate too much that Bailey Suit Samus and Swimsuit Shulk have already covered.

Hell, even Tharja is barely anything to raise a brow at in the Trophies department. Barbara the Bat still remains to be an overtly buxom character. Jody Summers bikini racing suit is no worse than Zero Suit Samus. Lyn's Brawl trophy has a few inches of cloth holding back her crotch upon upskirt, Naked Snake is even more tame than Swimsuit Shulk, but notably has mention of "his seeds" when referring to the Les Enfantes Terribles project in his description.

"Bayonetta is still too violent for Smash!"

Let's take the generally-accepted word that Tharja was cut to tailor the rating to an E10+. Notably, this game breaks the trend of T-rated Smash games for a variety of inferences. @ PK_Wonder does a great job running you down on the specific content descriptors for each game from Melee:

I agree with most everything you said, but to be fair, Melee was rated T as well.

Melee was rated T for "Comic Mischief, Mild Violence" and Brawl for "Cartoon Violence, Crude Humor."

Meanwhile, Sm4sh is rated E10+ for "Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, Mild Suggestive Themes." This leads me to believe Snake being in Brawl neither raised it to a T, nor did Snake not being in Sm4sh lower it. It just seems like, based on the content indicators, that society now has a more tolerable threshold for exposing kids to violence at younger ages now. The games aren't any more violent than they were before now, but "Mild Violence" has become "Cartoon" and unlike in Brawl, there are even "Suggestive Themes" now.

Honestly, even Melee always felt like it would be more appropriate for an E10+ than a T. Same goes for Brawl. SSB4 seems to get it's general feel right outside of a few specific things. Every game in the series just about shares the same type of content descriptors.

You got to understand that the ESRB is pretty stringent about what content constitutes a game rating. Obviously, you can see that Melee and Brawl's color tone and atmosphere had a little more of a dramatic, serious feeling. Brawl's Subspace Emissary took this even further with its tone and some cutscenes being frightening or tenacious (Pikachu's electroshock torture, the downfall of the Ancient Minister into R.O.B., just about every large boss fight prelude, etc.) If you think Sakurai won't allow realistic guns, explain why Link and the Fire Emblem crew can have realistic blades and look nearly close to real people. Captain Falcon hits people with a ****ing racecar. Explosives and fires are somehow exempt from this rule despite their traumatizing repercussions IRL. Even the Smash 64 Ray Gun resembles and sounds like a realistic gun!

And now we're absolving all these fantastically violent things compared to a sexualized heroine who has more than enough creative liberties to overt the more risqué and violent elements of her character whilst being faithful to her abilities?

On top of that, all DLC is unrated. That's why we have the "Online Interactions Not Rated" clause. You could buy SSB4 and not have to see Bayonetta at all as long as you didn't access the eShop. Or maybe even went on Miiverse or used the Internet, but that's another sentiment largely regarding DLC characters to the legacy of a game.

"But Bayonetta comes from a series with heavy religious themes!"

Honestly, I'm rather pleased we managed to avoid this point for 4 pages. I feel we'll get harangued about this on Shin Megami Tensei day, so I'll address it now for your quoting convenience.

Nintendo is an areliguous company. They want to create experiences anyone of any age and background will enjoy. Ironically, rejecting any religious themes or images would actually make a statement that they want to align with a particular religion that denounces those elements.

Speaking for Bayonetta, the game uses Biblical mythology as a thematic vehicle and a motif for the series' themes. You even kill angels and demons in gruesomely blasphemous ways.

Let's say that we'll include a couple of these characters through Trophies. Even using the tamest designs for the Hierarchy of Laguna, the Legemegton, and Infernal demons, any religious cords shouldn't be struck because none of the material is presenting itself in an offensive manner. If anything, you'd have to have extremely prude religious sensibilities to be offended by the mere sight of a demon, skulls, symbols of death and darkness, etc. And that really can't be helped for a game with the popularity and international appeal of Smash.

On that note, Pit espouses the Biblical characteristics of an angel despite being from a Hellenic setting. There's many references to demons through the Legend of Zelda, Fire Emblem, etc. Demon King Malladius, Demon King Azordius, etc., are already featured as Trophies with demonic influences in their designs.

By virtue of being a Japanese company, Nintendo comes from a culture that's predominantly secular. The Japanese understanding of demons veers closer to folklore than the eschatological, philosophical conception Western society is accustomed too. As a whole, they wouldn't limit themselves to one belief system when referencing other religions, mythos, etc., than other cultures would because they think its true. If it's really that much of a concern to them, they can always cut religious content under regional differences.

"But Bayonetta is not as iconic as the other 3rd party characters!"

This is where my arguments begin to falter. I acknowledge Bayonetta is not as important to Nintendo or gaming as a whole. It's a recent franchise with a cult following. Casuals could easily recognize Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man and either recall or be introduced to Solid Snake through a little bit of looking. If Bayonetta got in, she'd be closer to Snake in this regard on a more marginal level.

Sakurai has gone on record saying that 3rd parties have to be a "special case", highlighting the strenuous licensing process it actually is. He would be much less inclined to go for a "willy-nilly" recent star like Bayonetta when there are myriads of 3rd parties who match or even outshine her in uniqueness and iconicity. It should be noted that while Sakurai has not gone into detail about qualifiers for 3rd parties, the trend of 3rd parties we've seen heavily infers that they have to come form a legendary pedigree.

I'll be stretching onto what ifs here. Through all of this, we must remember that DLC is a different beast from the main roster. The Ballot was created for the fans to decide, which may deter many of Sakurai's usual qualifiers. We decide who we want and he is the layman who will stretch to anything just to make us happy. That's what he said DLC is all about, after all.

Want - 95.3%: I have only played Bayonetta 2 and I've felt a stronger bond to the character now past the laudatory support I had for her with her cool, stylish allure. Realizing her playstyle in Smash would feel amazing. She would bring a neat clash to the rest of the characters in the roster aesthetically too! Devil May Cry-style action games are somewhat of a niche Smash has yet to secure, which would be faithfully represented with what you could do with her moves.

Her main weapons are the guns she has attached to her hands and feet, which she uses as an extension of her melee attacks and even serve as ranged. They can even charge up for powerful energy-enchanced shots. They could have an additional button input after an attack fire a small bullet (or energy orb) or use muzzle flares at the expense of range.

Her signature are her Wicked Weaves, She can turn into a crow, panther, or a swarm of bats (makes a neat spot dodge or counter.). Their other purpose is to summon portals to manifest the appendages of summoned demons from her hair. Her most iconic form of this comes from her contracted demon, Madame Butterfly.

She could use her fists and stiletto legs. She can even bring her full body out or use her butterfly wings for a recovery or extended jump. Makes great Final smash material to summon a giant projection of her to smash the opponents with her furious fists. I think these would go to best use with a special mechanic that allows her to summon her weaves within a certain window of frames by pressing the special button after her standard attacks, which would require her to be a more large heavy character. It would be worth it in timing their power and range though.

Besides her hair, she could use Witch Time as a counter or a dodge for a bread-and-butter means of lowing down characters or the game speed via a brief Timer effect. Since this is a major part of her game, it would be weird to miss this in her moveset.

Her other two main components bring too much variety to the table to list further in my rating! Just take a look at her weapons across both games! She runs the gamut from bows, blades, whips, warhammes, and even friggin' mobile mech suits and Chain Chomps! This is more than enough to pull a Palutena or Mega Man on her customs. Her techniques write out the standards, tilts, smashes, grapples, and recoveries for themselves too!

Now, with all these pluses, then how come I didn't put her at 100%? Well, she's one of those characters that arguably has more work than usual securing and implementing right than maybe be worth the effort. She also would need to "pay off her worth" for a character without much star power and obviousness as the other 3rd parties. But seeing as I staunchly support Shovel Knight enough to throw a vote behind him, I guess this complaint could be rectified if I looked into it further.

It would certainly be a huge undertaking for Sakurai, Kamiya, and the rest of the Smash dev team to create a character as challenging as her. But if they managed to pull through, she'd be eternally enshrined as one of the most beautiful Smash movesets ever and earns a pivotal spot in the Nintendo pantheon. Even if it's just a one time deal.

PREDICTIONS

Concept: New Palutena's Guidance Conversations

Chance - 29.304%
Want - 87.69%

Concept: R.O.B. Eyes Glitch Fix

Chance - 93.45%
Want - 99.7%

Before we begin, would someone be so kind as to tell me when was this glitch first discovered? That way, I can have a better idea of its background.

NOMINATIONS

*Concept: (Shin) Megami Tensei Character (includes Persona & Devil Survivor) x2
*Concept: No DLC Characters After Fighter Ballot x2
*Concept: Smash 5 has 10 Year Wait Cycle x1

 

[StormC]

@ Sarki Soliloquy could you like, not use a font color that requires highlighting to be read?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

*walks into thread*

*sees title about Bayonetta*

*sees Blue getting his hard on*

*sees Blue also posting all the dumb **** that I end up wondering wtf he is smoking*

*sees people give Blue the legit argument and Blue refusing to give in, keep exaggerating*


....and that is a 0% in chance and want for me. **** Bayonetta