I feel like people are defining "iconic" down quite a bit. One definition is "
famously and distinctively representative of its type". Being famous is kind of a part of it. Most of the characters in Smash aren't that iconic, tbh. We don't have to pretend that they're all icons. Lucina, Pichu, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Lemmy, Dark Samus, Lucas and Shulk aren't "icons." The reason it's more relevant for this character, however, is that she's 3rd-party, and there seems to be a higher standard there.
She's definitely not un-iconic though. [...] she certainly is an icon. In fact, she is one of the most iconic VN characters around.
Like just because you don't know a lot about her, or may not like her, does not mean she isn't an icon.
We're talking about most of the people on here don't know who she is. It's harder to maintain that she's really quite famous in the face of that. Maybe you could say iconic
in Japan. But I'm skeptical even of that... Like it's possible to be a decently popular video game series and perhaps more popular anime series without being "iconic". Nobody would say that, say,
The Middle wasn't a successful sitcom. It had millions of viewers and 9 seasons. But I don't think it, or any of its characters, are "iconic". The problem is that "successful" and "iconic" are not synonyms. It's also not some grave insult to say your character isn't an icon. Many great games aren't blockbusters.
Like saying "just because she's not famous doesn't mean she's not an icon." That's like saying you can be a celebrity without being famous. I mean, yes, you can be more specific and say she's famous and iconic within Japanese visual novels. But I think for 3rd-parties, we're asking for a higher level of fame. Obviously other characters can't match Mario and Pac-Man, or even Donkey Kong, as icons, but even Snake and Castlevania are very iconic compared to this fate/ series.
I don't think Saber is likely at all, but to act like Fate isn't a huge *** franchise in Japan and that the original didn't change the whole VN market is just silly. It just proves how much inside of a Nintendo bubble this site is.
How can it be a "huge-ass" game franchise that's sold only around a million copies on consoles* across several games? While Japan is smaller than the US, it's not
that small. Those aren't "huge" numbers there. The non-video game media like manga and anime surely add to its fame, but this is Smash, and video games are the focus here.
While this is a Nintendo bubble, keep in mind this is also a
hardcore gamer bubble. Most people who play Smash know less about video games than the people who post here, and while my knowledge is biased towards games that came out in the US and released on Nintendo consoles, I still know more about non-Nintendo games than most. If most people here are going "who?" you can bet that more casual players would be even likelier to do so. If most of the people
here are saying "who?" then a minimum of 90% of Smash players outside Japan would also say "who the **** is this?" I'd be inclined to guess more like 99%. If you think that this character would be well-known if we just weren't so Nintendo-focused, I think you're the one in the bubble.
While they do some things to cater to Japan, they are wary of pulling something like that. There's no way they're putting in a character that the large majority of non-Japanese players wouldn't recognize at all, this is why characters like Takamaru and Lip aren't getting in the game, and they're Nintendo owned!
*presumably PC sales would boost the numbers quite a bit, but still.
For those of you unaware, Sakurai has mentioned the importance of visual novels such as Steins;Gate so he's aware of their existence.
I'm aware of the existence of visual novels, and it's obvious that Sakurai plays a lot of games and tries out a large variety and visual novels are big in Japan. I don't think the idea is that Sakurai would reject her because he's never heard of visual novels. He can be aware of them, and appreciate them, and still never even consider a character like Saber.
The counterarguments I sew here are no different than those towards Cloud and Bayo from back in Smash 4
Final Fantasy has sold over 100 million games. Final Fantasy 7 and spinoffs/ports specifically has sold over 15 million games. The argument against including Cloud was that he wasn't associated with Nintendo (and I personally still would be inclined to cut him before many other characters as a result), but not generally that Final Fantasy wasn't a worthy series. I think many of the people who argued against Cloud would've been fine with a moogle, black mage, or an SNES character like Terra or Cecil. And certainly nobody was arguing that Cloud wasn't even well-known! Making an analogy between their situations is a bit ridiculous. Cloud doesn't prove it's irrelevant - you can just as easily say that Cloud shows that a lack of Nintendo connections can be overcome by being from a massive 9-figure selling series and being very popular specifically.
Bayonetta, I will grant you, is the
closest precedent. But even she's not a great one. She's still sold significantly more games and Bayo 2 and 3 are Nintendo
exclusives. The Switch fate/ game didn't even release simultaneously with the other platforms.
However, fan demand plays a big role here too. I'd guess Castlevania/Simon/Richter got pretty good support on the ballot. They were frequently mentioned in fan polls. There is no indication that this character or this series would've done well on the ballot.
