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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

SonicMetaphor

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Hey, this is verifiably false!

I take it you're never played Kingdom Hearts.
Why would I need to? I am sure what I said applies, anyway. and I know Kingdom Hearts is not all Disney, anyway. Is this the best you could do?

And yet it appeared in Brawl anyway, as you can see in the picture.


I already addressed this.
That doesn't change much, and that appearing in Brawl does not make those two games considerable for adding in Sora based on Sakurai's rules, especially if Nintendo made those games rather than Disney. Nintendo is different now than from what it was back then. Their making the games rather than Disney is probably how it got there. Other than that, things change.

Also, may I remind you that Barret, Tifa and the other things you mentioned are still video game characters and stuff, and not something made by a western cartoon company like Disney? It's not impossible to put Sora in without anything Disney, but Sora is so heavily associated with those Disney things and characters that removing it would make people say things like "Where's Mickey/Donald/Goofy/etc..?". This is a different case, and while Sakurai may not have directly stated that non video game characters can't get in as non playable, that is still very unlikely. This is a celebration of gaming, mainly Japanese gaming, not Western cartoons. Thing is, not everyone would be okay, fine or understanding about the lack of Disney characters coming alongside Sora. You don't seem to see how much Disney stuff is important to Kingdom Hearts, even if it is not all Disney. Not everyone is going to understand or be fine with just Sora and other original characters who made their debut in a Kingdom Hearts game as playables, spirits, what have you. Think about it, it may be fine to you if Sora got in without the Kingdom Hearts characters, BUT would it really be a good idea in the end?
 

TwiceEXE

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Oh are we back to the debate about whether or not Sora requires a .PNG of Goofy to get into Smash?

Gotta say, this is one of my least favorite.
 

SonicMetaphor

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Oh are we back to the debate about whether or not Sora requires a .PNG of Goofy to get into Smash?

Gotta say, this is one of my least favorite.
I just said what I felt had to be said, include my thoughts and some points. Granted, Sakurai could add all that if he wanted to, but for reasons I already mentioned, I feel that is unlikely.
 

TriggerX

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Why would I need to? I am sure what I said applies, anyway. and I know Kingdom Hearts is not all Disney, anyway. Is this the best you could do?



That doesn't change much, and that appearing in Brawl does not make those two games considerable for adding in Sora based on Sakurai's rules, especially if Nintendo made those games rather than Disney. Nintendo is different now than from what it was back then. Their making the games rather than Disney is probably how it got there. Other than that, things change.

Also, may I remind you that Barret, Tifa and the other things you mentioned are still video game characters and stuff, and not something made by a western cartoon company like Disney? It's not impossible to put Sora in without anything Disney, but Sora is so heavily associated with those Disney things and characters that removing it would make people say things like "Where's Mickey/Donald/Goofy/etc..?". This is a different case, and while Sakurai may not have directly stated that non video game characters can't get in as non playable, that is still very unlikely. This is a celebration of gaming, mainly Japanese gaming, not Western cartoons. Thing is, not everyone would be okay, fine or understanding about the lack of Disney characters coming alongside Sora. You don't seem to see how much Disney stuff is important to Kingdom Hearts, even if it is not all Disney. Not everyone is going to understand or be fine with just Sora and other original characters who made their debut in a Kingdom Hearts game as playables, spirits, what have you. Think about it, it may be fine to you if Sora got in without the Kingdom Hearts characters, BUT would it really be a good idea in the end?
Kingdom Hearts was created by Square just so y’all know.
 

Mushroomguy12

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It's very, VERY different.
It's very, VERY much the same.
Why would I need to?
Because then you'd probably realize that everything you said in the second paragraph was false.


"Why would I need to play a series's games to understand how the series works?"
I am sure what I said applies, anyway.
It really doesn't.

Think about it, it may be fine to you if Sora got in without the Kingdom Hearts characters, BUT would it really be a good idea in the end?
I'm assuming you meant if Sora got in without the Disney characters. And yeah, it would be a fine idea. Especially for those that actually played the games.


See, a great spirit board consisting of 100% KH original characters. You'd probably recognize these characters if you actually played the games. Add in a KH original stage like Twilight Town or Traverse Town and we already have a better KH representation than FF.

Another one. No Mickey, Donald, or Goofy to be seen.
 
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GoodGrief741

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Why would I need to? I am sure what I said applies, anyway. and I know Kingdom Hearts is not all Disney, anyway. Is this the best you could do?
How can you be so sure of something that's wrong, while also admitting that you don't even know the slightest thing?
 

3DSNinja

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Yeah, Sora CAN be done without Disney, (wouldn't feel right to me, but it can happen)
Off topic, but SSF2 Sora is pretty sick. If he was put in the game like that, I'd be cool with it
 

SonicMetaphor

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How can you be so sure of something that's wrong, while also admitting that you don't even know the slightest thing?
I read a lot about Kingdom Hearts, and there is something called insight, which can be useful even when you don't completely know something. You don't need to experience or learn every single detail to apply insight.

It's very, VERY much the same.

Because then you'd probably realize that everything you said in the second paragraph was false.


"Why would I need to play a series's games to understand how the series works?"

It really doesn't.


I'm assuming you meant if Sora got in without the Disney characters. And yeah, it would be a fine idea. Especially for those that actually played the games.

First, it would only be a fine idea to you. Not everyone would see it the same way. What makes you think they would.

By the way, can you please explain your other points? You just said it doesn't or it's the same. Besides, as I have seen some people say in some parts of the web, not everyone needs to play the game they think is bad to know how bad it might be, and though they still don't get the same package, it still works. Why should Kingdom Hearts be any different? Though I have not played the games, it is possible to be a fan or know the games without playing them. Plus, like I said, I have insight on how things can work.

See, a great spirit board consisting of 100% KH original characters.
Kingdom Hearts was created by Square just so y’all know.
Even so, the characters, even Sora, are said to be owned by Disney. So complications.
 

JarBear

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I am specifically not working "against" Sora or anything, I am just curious IF all the parties could work together to keep Sora "Video Game Only" friendly.

First simple step, no Disney-Mascot/related Spirits. (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc. etc.) Pretty easy.
The second one, which on the face value sounds just as simple ... but at the same time is more complicated than you think: Remove the Mickey Ears on the Keyblade.

On the surface, simply replacing the Mickey Ears with the Kingdom Hearts logo (Could even just remove the pendant to simplify it more) sound simple. But what makes it difficult is how protective Disney is with any of their property, even "SIMPLE" manipulations.

I say that with some knowledge through the wife-unit who works with Disney via Costco Travel. There is sooooo much red tape, requirements, rules, uber protective guidelines, etc. for even the most simple of things. Such as a photo to be used ... you basically cannot touch them. Let alone the logos, colors, etc etc. Just everything about them is the most work ... for simply advertising THEIR products.

So yeah ... nothing against Sora or anything, I am curious just how much ball Disney will actually play when it comes to following Sakurai's guidelines for Smash.

Or Sora will be the only exception, even if it means having the Mickey Ears... Time will tell eh?
 
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SonicMetaphor

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There is one other thing I should mention.

Even if Sakurai was okay with not adding Disney characters in any shape or form, as inaccurate he may be at doing it, that might conflict with his wanting to portray characters as best as possible as well as their series, which is why he did not add Ridley in games like Smash Bros. Brawl and Smash Bros. 4. Also, if he did add Disney characters, well, Kingdom Hearts itself is said to be a celebration of Disney itself, so what good is adding a celebration of a western cartoon company with a game series that is a celebration of gaming? At the same time, take away the Disney stuff in a Kingdom Hearts game and leave the original characters in after the first Kingdom Hearts game was created (which would have Disney characters then), and tell me, what do you get and how would you feel about it? It wouldn't really be the same, or line up with what Kingdom Hearts is all about, would it?

Kingdom Hearts is not as separable from Disney as you may think, and cutting Disney stuff when adding Kingdom Hearts stuff like Sora as a playable in Smash Bros. Ultimate may not really be worth it if it can cause confusion and that Sora and the other original characters are heavily associated with Disney stuff and Disney itself to begin with.

I am not saying it can't be done, nor am I against Sora being in Smash Bros. Ultimate, but it would have its consequences for sure.
 

TriggerX

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I read a lot about Kingdom Hearts, and there is something called insight, which can be useful even when you don't completely know something. You don't need to experience or learn every single detail to apply insight.




Even so, the characters, even Sora, are said to be owned by Disney. So complications.
Lol he’s owned by two companies that would benefit from having him advertised in smash. Both parties actively push and use the IP.
Not that complicated.

Now Geno’s rights are complicated. You do realize that his rights are stuck between a company that can’t use him because he has an affiliation with an IP it doesn’t own, while the other company can’t use him because they don’t own him and would have to pay the other just for his presence. Which is probably why we haven’t seen a Smrpg sequel because keeping everything in house vs outsourcing work you’re already capable of doing seems like a no brainer.
 
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SonicMetaphor

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Lol he’s owned by two companies that would benefit from having him advertised in smash. Both parties actively push and use the IP.
Not that complicated.

Now Geno’s rights are complicated. You do realize that his rights are stuck between a company that can’t use him because he has an affiliation with an IP it doesn’t own, while the other company can’t use him because they don’t own him and would have to pay the other just for his presence. Which is probably why we haven’t see a Smrpg sequel because keeping everything in house vs outsourcing work you’re already capable of doing seems like a no brainer.
Both companies own Sora? That's not what I have heard on this forum and the outside. Plus, considering how Disney is with it characters, and that Sakurai would have to go to Disney, which is not even a video game company and thus would be more (but maybe not completely) like trying to get Goku in Smash, I'd say it is complicated, nowhere near as simple as you think.

As for Geno, it is not that complicated, because if it were, Geno would not have gotten in as a Mii Costume in the last Smash game. Not to mention, the IP affiliation thing probably won't hinder Geno getting in. Smash Bros. is an Nintendo series, after all, so how hard could it be?
 

wynn728

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Lol he’s owned by two companies that would benefit from having him advertised in smash. Both parties actively push and use the IP.
Not that complicated.

Now Geno’s rights are complicated. You do realize that his rights are stuck between a company that can’t use him because he has an affiliation with an IP it doesn’t own, while the other company can’t use him because they don’t own him and would have to pay the other just for his presence. Which is probably why we haven’t seen a Smrpg sequel because keeping everything in house vs outsourcing work you’re already capable of doing seems like a no brainer.
Or why Geno didn't show up in the 3DS remake of Mario & Luigi Super Star Saga.
 

SonicMetaphor

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Or why Geno didn't show up in the 3DS remake of Mario & Luigi Super Star Saga.
I think that was because Nintendo did not ask to use him, not to mention, I heard Geno's creator was working for the company that made the original game, at the time, and if he wasn't, Geno would probably not have been in at all. So there is that.
 

SSGuy

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Considering Alpha Dream was basically on the verge of bankruptcy, they probably didn't prioritize paying the liscensing for him to reappear. But given unlimited funding, I have no doubts that they would have included him again.
 

Ninjaed

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Um... I'm confused about the recent argument here. Why is it an issue to get Disney spirits? Because they don't originate from a video game? If so, I don't see why an exception couldn't be made. Rules aren't made to restrict (Sakurai especially would hate that) but guide, and spirits aren't very impactful to begin with anyway. A rule stifling creativity is a bad rule. It should encourage it - working around a rule births new ideas and concepts (e.g. Mario Maker levels where you can't turn). Besides, the Disney characters in KH are separate from their film counterparts. Unless you can quote one in a film alluding to Sora, Squall, Organisation XIII or whatever, which I doubt you will.
 
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TriggerX

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Both companies own Sora? That's not what I have heard on this forum and the outside. Plus, considering how Disney is with it characters, and that Sakurai would have to go to Disney, which is not even a video game company and thus would be more (but maybe not completely) like trying to get Goku in Smash, I'd say it is complicated, nowhere near as simple as you think.

As for Geno, it is not that complicated, because if it were, Geno would not have gotten in as a Mii Costume in the last Smash game. Not to mention, the IP affiliation thing probably won't hinder Geno getting in. Smash Bros. is an Nintendo series, after all, so how hard could it be?
Nah you misunderstand, and Im sorry I probably wrote that in error. To clarify yes, only Disney owns Sora, from a business standpoint I doubt money would be flowing directly to square. The point I’m trying to make is that Sora is affiliated with two companies that are guiding that franchise toward the same path currently. There is no friction, unlike in Geno’s case, where the character is ultimately stuck in Limbo until Square sells the IP or Nintendo wishes to use Square to develop a RPG title.

Apparently Sakurai initially wanted Geno as a playable character, but they opted for the mii costume instead. No one knows why.

Personally my theory is that I think he may have been shafted for Megaman and Geno was demoted to a
a mii costume which requires significantly less resources than a full fledged character.

I also don’t believe Geno’s messed up licensing situation would hinder his chances, but if Square is involved a character like Sora would likely be pushed for their benefit rather than Geno.
The only way I see Geno getting in as a character is if Nintendo wants Geno.
 
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SonicMetaphor

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Nah you misunderstand, and Im sorry I probably wrote that in error. To clarify yes, only Disney owns Sora, from a business standpoint I doubt money would be flowing directly to square. The point I’m trying to make is that Sora is affiliated with two companies that are guiding that franchise toward the same path currently. There is no friction, unlike in Geno’s case, where the character is ultimately stuck in Limbo until Square sells the IP or Nintendo wishes to use Square to develop a RPG title.

Apparently Sakurai initially wanted Geno as a playable character, but they opted for the mii costume instead. No one knows why.

Personally my theory is that I think he may have been shafted for Megaman and Geno was demoted to a
a mii costume which requires significantly less resources than a full fledged character.

I also don’t believe Geno’s messed up licensing situation would hinder his chances, but if Square is involved a character like Sora would likely be pushed for their benefit rather than Geno.
The only way I see Geno getting in as a character is if Nintendo wants Geno.
I am pretty sure that, in the case of Sora being affiliated with both companies, Sakurai would have to go to both companies for Sora, unlike with Geno. Heck! I am sure Geno would still be easier to get than Sora, and would not be complicated as you think. I don’t think the reasons you have make things complicated at all. Sakurai has wanted Geno for some time now. That is why plenty of fans have wanted him since Brawl. Plus, he is just dang awesome.
 

TriggerX

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I am pretty sure that, in the case of Sora being affiliated with both companies, Sakurai would have to go to both companies for Sora, unlike with Geno. Heck! I am sure Geno would still be easier to get than Sora, and would not be complicated as you think. I don’t think the reasons you have make things complicated at all. Sakurai has wanted Geno for some time now. That is why plenty of fans have wanted him since Brawl. Plus, he is just dang awesome.
You’re missing the point. Nintendo can throw money at any company at this point if they want them in Smash. And Vice Versa.
The issue here is why? How does adding Geno to the roster help Nintendo?How does it help Square?

It doesn’t , nor does it need to. But it certainly helps.
 

SonicMetaphor

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You’re missing the point. Nintendo can throw money at any company at this point if they want them in Smash. And Vice Versa.
The issue here is why? How does adding Geno to the roster help Nintendo?How does it help Square?

It doesn’t , nor does it need to. But it certainly helps.
Seriously, does it need to? As long as the fans get happy, that's all the pay in return both companies ever need.
 

Ninjaed

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I am pretty sure that, in the case of Sora being affiliated with both companies, Sakurai would have to go to both companies for Sora, unlike with Geno. Heck! I am sure Geno would still be easier to get than Sora, and would not be complicated as you think. I don’t think the reasons you have make things complicated at all. Sakurai has wanted Geno for some time now. That is why plenty of fans have wanted him since Brawl. Plus, he is just dang awesome.
Sakurai has liked and wanted many characters you know? He's not alone in this decision-making however. In fact, the whole thing about being given a list by Nintendo was his way of saying "that's it, too many people keep pestering me with their wishlist, I'm washing my hands off it all"... not that it worked too well but hey.

Also Sakurai has had to negotiate with a dozen companies in the making of Smash Ultimate. What makes you think negotiating with 2 more (1 of them he actually already has) is going to stop him? There are counterarguments to Sora in Smash but this isn't one.
 

SonicMetaphor

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Sakurai has liked and wanted many characters you know? He's not alone in this decision-making however. In fact, the whole thing about being given a list by Nintendo was his way of saying "that's it, too many people keep pestering me with their wishlist, I'm washing my hands off it all"... not that it worked too well but hey.

Also Sakurai has had to negotiate with a dozen companies in the making of Smash Ultimate. What makes you think negotiating with 2 more (1 of them he actually already has) is going to stop him? There are counterarguments to Sora in Smash but this isn't one.
I was moreso talking about Geno. I have already said a lot of things about Sora, such as on this and on the last page. Here are some examples.

There is one other thing I should mention.

Even if Sakurai was okay with not adding Disney characters in any shape or form, as inaccurate he may be at doing it, that might conflict with his wanting to portray characters as best as possible as well as their series, which is why he did not add Ridley in games like Smash Bros. Brawl and Smash Bros. 4. Also, if he did add Disney characters, well, Kingdom Hearts itself is said to be a celebration of Disney itself, so what good is adding a celebration of a western cartoon company with a game series that is a celebration of gaming? At the same time, take away the Disney stuff in a Kingdom Hearts game and leave the original characters in after the first Kingdom Hearts game was created (which would have Disney characters then), and tell me, what do you get and how would you feel about it? It wouldn't really be the same, or line up with what Kingdom Hearts is all about, would it?

Kingdom Hearts is not as separable from Disney as you may think, and cutting Disney stuff when adding Kingdom Hearts stuff like Sora as a playable in Smash Bros. Ultimate may not really be worth it if it can cause confusion and that Sora and the other original characters are heavily associated with Disney stuff and Disney itself to begin with.

I am not saying it can't be done, nor am I against Sora being in Smash Bros. Ultimate, but it would have its consequences for sure.
Why would I need to? I am sure what I said applies, anyway. and I know Kingdom Hearts is not all Disney, anyway. Is this the best you could do?



That doesn't change much, and that appearing in Brawl does not make those two games considerable for adding in Sora based on Sakurai's rules, especially if Nintendo made those games rather than Disney. Nintendo is different now than from what it was back then. Their making the games rather than Disney is probably how it got there. Other than that, things change.

Also, may I remind you that Barret, Tifa and the other things you mentioned are still video game characters and stuff, and not something made by a western cartoon company like Disney? It's not impossible to put Sora in without anything Disney, but Sora is so heavily associated with those Disney things and characters that removing it would make people say things like "Where's Mickey/Donald/Goofy/etc..?". This is a different case, and while Sakurai may not have directly stated that non video game characters can't get in as non playable, that is still very unlikely. This is a celebration of gaming, mainly Japanese gaming, not Western cartoons. Thing is, not everyone would be okay, fine or understanding about the lack of Disney characters coming alongside Sora. You don't seem to see how much Disney stuff is important to Kingdom Hearts, even if it is not all Disney. Not everyone is going to understand or be fine with just Sora and other original characters who made their debut in a Kingdom Hearts game as playables, spirits, what have you. Think about it, it may be fine to you if Sora got in without the Kingdom Hearts characters, BUT would it really be a good idea in the end?
Though I did not want to get into this, if I may, Mickey and & Donald and Mickey Mouse on the Game and Watch was at a time when Smash Bros., and Sakurai's rules for it did not really exist. This was before then. Plus, you don't see any Disney games listed on the NES, SNES and beyond, do you? Just because they were on the Game and Watch system doesn't mean they are that important to Nintendo. Plus, Nintendo probably made the games themselves, which is why those two games are on there, rather than Disney making them. It;s probably an explanation why those two games are on there to begin with. Even though I could be mistaken on that part, the rest of what I said is what I believe still stands. Plus, Mr. Game and Watch uses stuff from other Game and Watch games for his moveset. When was he ever using something from those Mickey and Donald and Mickey Mouse?

Plus, Sora appearing in other games, mostly Final Fantasy games here, is different from Smash Bros., which is a crossover event. I am sure the Final Fantasy games did not have to include everything from Kingdom Hearts to make Sora appear. Still, the Disney characters are what makes up most of Kingdom Hearts' identity, and by extension, Sora's. Thing is, if Disney characters were not added along with Sora, there would be some confusion, as in, "Where are the other characters from Kingdom Hearts/Donald/Goofy/Mickey?" It may work in some Final Fantasy games, but it would be much harder to do for a big gaming crossover like Smash, which is a celebration of gaming more than anything cartoon or western based like Disney. It's not impossible to do, but it would be much harder, as I said, compared to some Final Fantasy games.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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They literally CANNOT include sora without the disney characters, it's not that easy as you think.
That crappy FF game World of Final Fantsy did with no problem tho idk is Sora stayed summoned after he was summoned
Kingdom Hearts was created by Square just so y’all know.
that and if disney want to use Sora, they have to ask Nomura for permission first. He basickly has the say if they can use his baby
 
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warpenguin55

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Geno
Chance: 50%
Geno is just...Geno. Positives are that he's probably the most requested character thats not already in and Sakurai loves him. On the other hand, he's from Square and already a spirit. All this boils down to a massive amount of IDK anymore. Geno is never really dead due to high demand IMO.

Want: 45%
I don't really care if he gets in anymore. I used to be extremely Anti-Geno, admittedly for no reason. I'm neutral now, if he gets in, great. If not, cool. He still gets -5% because I think Lara Croft deserves it more.

Sora:
Chance: 30%
Sora is pretty similar to Geno, but less requested. I think Sora is a pretty good example of what fans and Nintendo both might want for DLC. He still has a few issues though. For 1, all the debate about exactly how much control

Want: 45%
Same thing as Geno. I'm pretty neutral, but I think Lara Croft deserves the slot more than Sora.

Noms: Octopath Rep X5
 

SonicMetaphor

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That crappy FF game World of Final Fantsy did with no problem tho idk is Sora stayed summoned after he was summoned
I don't want to butt in, but while true, it may be because it had to do with the fact that Square Enix was already making the Kingdom Hearts games, thus, they were more affiliated with Disney than Disney was with other companies. I am sure Sora is still owned by Disney. Disney just has Square Enix make the games, and I think they were already in a good enough relationship to have Sora put into those other Final Fantasy games. I am sure it would be more difficult for if some other video game company wanted Sora in their game, even if they have little or nothing to do with Kingdom Hearts itself.
 
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GoodGrief741

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I don't want to butt in, but while true, it may be because it had to do with the fact that Square Enix was already making the Kingdom Hearts games, thus, they were more affiliated with Disney than Disney was with other companies. I am sure Sora is still owned by Disney. Disney just has Square Enix make the games, and I think they were already in a good enough relationship to have Sora put into those other Final Fantasy games. I am sure it would be more difficult for if some other video game company wanted Sora in their game, even if they have little or nothing to do with Kingdom Hearts itself.
Nintendo publishes Disney games, including Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 and the Disney Magical World games. They've got a business relationship with games.

Business relationships aren't based on trust, they're based on results, money, and common interests. Nintendo is one of the most reliable gaming companies out there, and Sakurai has shown incredible skill and respect at representing characters. If the price is right, a deal will go through. It's not more complex than that, really.
 

SonicMetaphor

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Nintendo publishes Disney games, including Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 and the Disney Magical World games. They've got a business relationship with games.

Business relationships aren't based on trust, they're based on results, money, and common interests. Nintendo is one of the most reliable gaming companies out there, and Sakurai has shown incredible skill and respect at representing characters. If the price is right, a deal will go through. It's not more complex than that, really.
1. Ah, but not in terms of making Kingdom Hearts, which is developed by Square Enix. I wasn't saying it was impossible, or maybe that hard for Nintendo and Sakurai to get Sora in with all this, just that it was easier for Square Enix to get Sora in those Final Fantasy games.

2. And I know that business relationships are about what you said, and if Sakurai can get Sora in, fine. But it would be hard, and nowhere near easy. The fact that they got Hero and Cloud in Smash, who are from Square Enix, is a good start here, but Disney is a whole other beast, with negotiations, being a western cartoon company with their non video game characters in Kingdom Hearts, being kinda stingy with their own characters being used themselves, etc. It's going to take more than just asking them, you see. Even if Disney is willing, the fact that they make Western cartoons with stuff already in Kingdom Hearts like Mickey may conflict with Sakurai's rules on what should, would and could get in a Smash Bros. game, and not just as playables too, perhaps.
 

GoodGrief741

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1. Ah, but not in terms of making Kingdom Hearts, which is developed by Square Enix. I wasn't saying it was impossible, or maybe that hard for Nintendo and Sakurai to get Sora in with all this, just that it was easier for Square Enix to get Sora in those Final Fantasy games.

2. And I know that business relationships are about what you said, and if Sakurai can get Sora in, fine. But it would be hard, and nowhere near easy. The fact that they got Hero and Cloud in Smash, who are from Square Enix, is a good start here, but Disney is a whole other beast, with negotiations, being a western cartoon company with their non video game characters in Kingdom Hearts, being kinda stingy with their own characters being used themselves, etc. It's going to take more than just asking them, you see. Even if Disney is willing, the fact that they make Western cartoons with stuff already in Kingdom Hearts like Mickey may conflict with Sakurai's rules on what should, would and could get in a Smash Bros. game, and not just as playables too, perhaps.
You keep saying that it would be hard but I've yet to see any evidence pointing to it.
 

SonicMetaphor

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You keep saying that it would be hard but I've yet to see any evidence pointing to it.
I am sure if one understands how business works, that could give you your answer. I am not a business person myself, but I have knowledge I can apply to business, so it is not hard for me to understand. Plus, it doesn't take a great Eisenstein-like mind to figure that out. Working with different companies to get something in one game is a pain, or else Geno, or any Square Enix character would have been Smash much easier long ago.

What kind of evidence are you wanting here? I thought it was more or less common sense that can be applied anyway. I am familiar with the companies based on their histories, and I can tell that it won't be easy from there.
 

TriggerX

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1. Ah, but not in terms of making Kingdom Hearts, which is developed by Square Enix. I wasn't saying it was impossible, or maybe that hard for Nintendo and Sakurai to get Sora in with all this, just that it was easier for Square Enix to get Sora in those Final Fantasy games.

2. And I know that business relationships are about what you said, and if Sakurai can get Sora in, fine. But it would be hard, and nowhere near easy. The fact that they got Hero and Cloud in Smash, who are from Square Enix, is a good start here, but Disney is a whole other beast, with negotiations, being a western cartoon company with their non video game characters in Kingdom Hearts, being kinda stingy with their own characters being used themselves, etc. It's going to take more than just asking them, you see. Even if Disney is willing, the fact that they make Western cartoons with stuff already in Kingdom Hearts like Mickey may conflict with Sakurai's rules on what should, would and could get in a Smash Bros. game, and not just as playables too, perhaps.
Also in terms of Disney’s relationship with Nintendo, you do realize that Nintendo went public largely due to the work Disney gave them in the past right?
Wreck it Ralph was in a sega game.... Nintendo characters were in a Disney movie....
A movie they were promoting heavily at the time.

The amount of collaborations between the companies is a large amount you can’t overlook. Also Tetsuya Nomura is already involved with smash due to cloud so there are a lot little pieces that are already in place.

Whatever “strict” guidelines Disney has, it’s probably not hard for Nintendo to you know ..just follow them.

Which leads me to my last point, I could see Disney wanting to keep the key chain with the Mickey symbol. I completely agree with that.

However I can also see Nintendo just accepting it and not really caring about it as much as some of you do.
Sora would be a good business move for Nintendo, provided he doesn’t cost too much to add.
 
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SonicMetaphor

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Also in terms of Disney’s relationship with Nintendo, you do realize that Nintendo went public largely due to the work Disney gave them in the past right?
Wreck it Ralph was in a sega game.... Nintendo characters were in a Disney movie....
A movie they were promoting heavily at the time.

Whatever “strict” guidelines Disney has, it’s probably not hard for Nintendo to you know ..just follow them.

Which leads me to my last point, I could see Disney wanting to keep the key chain with the Mickey symbol. I completely agree with that.

However I can also see Nintendo just accepting it and not really caring about it as much as some of you do.
Sora would be a good business move for Nintendo, provided he doesn’t cost too much to add.
First,

"Also in terms of Disney’s relationship with Nintendo, you do realize that Nintendo went public largely due to the work Disney gave them in the past right?"

That is quite different from Nintendo and Sakurai getting a character from Disney. Let it be known that publishing the games Disney makes and so on is not as easy or the same as Square Enix getting Sora in a few Final Fantasy games. The circumstances are different. Plus, while video game characters were in Wreck-it Ralph, Mario was not because they could not get Nintendo to let the makers of the movie use him. They could only reference him or mention him. Also, Sega is a different company altogether.

Also, what if there are some guidelines Disney has that Nintendo does not want to follow, or could not follow, because of rules and guidelines of their own? Not to mention...

You have seemingly forgotten, or ignored that Sakurai has rules in making characters a part of Smash, like no non-video game characters. That could apply to characters that don't have to make a playable appearance too. Plus, Kingdom Hearts is said to be a celebration of Disney, while Smash Bros. is a celebration of video games in general, mainly Japanese games, which many non video game characters did not originate from, by the way. How would a celebration of Disney work with a celebration of video games without any conflict in the identity thing? How could the Mickey Mouse chain symbol be used then? And even if they did not add anything that was non video game characters and other things by Disney in Smash, would it feel the same, or even be worth it to many who will wonder why the Disney stuff that came before Kingdom Hearts was created was cut?
 

TriggerX

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First,

"Also in terms of Disney’s relationship with Nintendo, you do realize that Nintendo went public largely due to the work Disney gave them in the past right?"

That is quite different from Nintendo and Sakurai getting a character from Disney. Let it be known that publishing the games Disney makes and so on is not as easy or the same as Square Enix getting Sora in a few Final Fantasy games. The circumstances are different. Plus, while video game characters were in Wreck-it Ralph, Mario was not because they could not get Nintendo to let the makers of the movie use him. They could only reference him or mention him. Also, Sega is a different company altogether.

Also, what if there are some guidelines Disney has that Nintendo does not want to follow, or could not follow, because of rules and guidelines of their own? Not to mention...

You have seemingly forgotten, or ignored that Sakurai has rules in making characters a part of Smash, like no non-video game characters. That could apply to characters that don't have to make a playable appearance too. Plus, Kingdom Hearts is said to be a celebration of Disney, while Smash Bros. is a celebration of video games in general, mainly Japanese games, which many non video game characters did not originate from, by the way. How would a celebration of Disney work with a celebration of video games without any conflict in the identity thing? How could the Mickey Mouse chain symbol be used then? And even if they did not add anything that was non video game characters and other things by Disney in Smash, would it feel the same, or even be worth it to many who will wonder why the Disney stuff that came before Kingdom Hearts was created was cut?
So it sounds like you’re saying Nintendo is the hard one to work with.

Regardless you’re trying to apply some rule that unlikely even applies for Sora’s situation.
Mushroom had posted it earlier but Mickey Mouse is already mentioned in one of the games. If they are willing to mention him by name multiple times and Donald Duck once, a small pendant probably isn’t on their list of concerns either.

 
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Louie G.

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GENO

Chances: 60%
Yeahhhhh I think it's happening. Geno is arguably the last big longstanding fan request left from the Brawl days (er, sorry Isaac, I don't think ATs have much of a chance), he's got a history of Sakurai talking about him and his Mii Costume was not only treated as a pretty big deal last game but is... mysteriously missing. All of these things have been discussed time and time again, and I don't think that anything I can say is particularly groundbreaking or anything we haven't already heard a million times.

So those costumes huh? Weird stuff, how Geno Heihachi and Lloyd are among the only costumes still missing and just happen to be the three most obvious promotions of the whole bunch. My theory? These guys were totally being held off after Nintendo and Sakurai decided they wanted to do a second pass. Geno in such high demand, Lloyd and Heihachi being two of the most obvious choices from one of Nintendo's closest allies who still don't have a character... but then you have Geno, from a company who DOES have a character. I'm personally of the belief that Square Enix is only gonna be releasing costumes alongside characters that belong to them, Geno was released with Cloud in Smash 4 and Hero got his DQ costumes and nothing beyond that. Soooo that leaves three options open:

1. Geno is a playable character. <--- I think this is the most likely one. Just a gut feeling.

2. Square Enix is getting another character. <--- No matter who it is, I'm confident in this happening. It might be Geno, it might be someone else. If it's someone else, the costume probably comes with it.

3. Geno's costume is COMPLETELY GONE. <--- There's really no reason for this to be the case, but it's worth a mention. If we aren't getting another SE character though, I doubt we're seeing Geno in any capacity. I stand by my theory.

The big thing standing against Geno for some people seems to be that he's a spirit. Personally I believe that since we're now in FP2, which wasn't decided until after the game's release, spirits are back on the table. BUT. That doesn't entitle spirits to become playable characters either! If we don't get a spirit promotion, then I will still stand by that they never disconfirmed. If Sakurai or Nintendo really genuinely wanted to add a character who was already a spirit, they would. And as far as I'm concerned, Geno is far and away the most likely character to get this treatment.

Geno is popular. I know people like to dispute this, but Geno is very popular. He's the focus of many a Smash speculation video, he's the hottest topic on just about every single Smash related board. Sakurai himself has said:

He's incredibly popular.
Of course, as we all know popularity is certainly no guarantee of a character's inclusion. I do think though as far as fanservice picks go, Geno just makes the most sense. Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, these guys have been requests for over a decade. Every other character being requested heavily right now has not had the same time to establish themselves as the big heavy hitter fan pleaser as Geno has, since a majority of them only gained significant traction after Joker was revealed.

The last character left in these discussions who has been getting requests since Brawl is Geno. So to me, it's a matter of time. Or maybe not! If Geno doesn't happen then that's that, but after all this, after all these flame wars I really just think we're reaching the end of this story.

Want: 90%
**** you all, Geno is cool. I don't care what anyone says about him being irrelevant or a nobody... because Smash is full of irrelevant nobodies. The only reason we don't see them that way is because they're in Smash. I'm actually a little bit tired of the new additions being these big name heavy hitter characters because quite frankly I miss the days when we would just talk about Nintendo characters all the time. I love characters that can be thrown into Smash and given a brand new life of their own after years of neglect. Who's a better fit for that than the supporting character from the 25 year old Mario spinoff? And aside from that like, his design is sweet. I genuinely believe if he got in, I'd play him a lot. He seems like a character who would fit my playstyle, and plus he's got a little blaster and can turn himself into a cannon and use star magic. Idk, sounds like a good time.

That's what Geno boils down to for me. He's not important, he's not iconic, he's just... a cool character. When I was a kid and making my wishlist rosters, I would pile on a bunch of characters who by all means logically should never be in Smash. But I just thought they were really cool, so I threw them in anyway. Geno is that kind of character, and I think to some extent that's a pretty important thing. There's a childlike charm to him that makes him feel like an underdog and someone that represents, to me, a lot of what Smash is all about.

Also, I just want this debate to end already. God it's the most frustrating thing, both sides are brick walls and there's nothing to be said that hasn't been said. Would really like a conclusion to this sooner than later.

...Alright alright, so now we have

SORA

Chances: 25%
I'm gonna keep this one short. Sora is a big name character, he's got a very dedicated following, he had a game that came out just a little while ago so he's fresh in everyone's minds. Let's ignore the Disney stuff for now because honestly I don't think it would make much of a difference. Sora is one of the newer mobs of followers that has arisen but it's very difficult to ignore. I do believe that Sora has a chance. Not much more I can say, this one just boils down to "will they won't they".

There's so much more to talk about with Geno because of his history with Smash and its community, but Sora's case is one that's fairly new. He's possible, that's about the most I can say about it. Not confident one way or the other but I definitely lean toward not happening just on the basis that I find other characters more plausible.

Want: 5%
I don't like Sora's design and I don't like Kingdom Hearts. Like, at all. But if he gets in, good for his fans. I've made peace with the possibility, but it wouldn't be a character I'm excited about at all. That's about it, he just doesn't have that appeal to me. Best of luck to Sora fans.

Nominations: Dark Souls x5
 
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SonicMetaphor

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It’s unlikely that even applies here.
Mushroom had posted it earlier but Mickey Mouse is already mentioned in one of the games. If they are willing to mention him by name multiple times and Donald Duck once, a small pendant probably isn’t on their list of concerns either.
You mean those Game and Watch games? If so, those were from a long time ago. Things are different now, and those games were made before Smash Bros, and by extension, Sakurai's rules ever existed. Nintendo probably made those games, not Disney themselves, which is probably why they are even listed there. Just because they are mentioned does not make it easier for them to get into a Smash game, especially now.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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You mean those Game and Watch games? If so, those were from a long time ago. Things are different now, and those games were made before Smash Bros, and by extension, Sakurai's rules ever existed. Nintendo probably made those games, not Disney themselves, which is probably why they are even listed there. Just because they are mentioned does not make it easier for them to get into a Smash game, especially now.

They just made a Disney Tsum Tsum Switch and Ultimate Marvel Alliance 3 just came exclusively to Switch. Epic Mickey 1 was also a Wii exclusive.

Nintendo and Disney have worked together plenty.
 
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SonicMetaphor

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-Snip-
They just made a Disney Tsum Tsum Switch and Ultimate Marvel Alliance 3 just came exclusively to Switch.

Nintendo and Disney have worked together plenty.
That doesn't make a bit of difference. Those are for design for something for a game console. Nintendo and Disney may have worked together on something like this, but this is still different from getting Sora into Smash. Not to mention Sakurai's rules for characters appearing in a Smash Bros. game as I have mentioned. Plus, where is Sora in all this? These things do not seem to be related to the non Disney stuff that came before Kingdom Hearts, like Sora. Just because the two companies worked on one specific thing does not mean it will work for another, especially if there are different people involved.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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That doesn't make a bit of difference. Those are for design for something for a game console. Nintendo and Disney may have worked together on something like this, but this is still different from getting Sora into Smash. Not to mention Sakurai's rules for characters appearing in a Smash Bros. game as I have mentioned. Plus, where is Sora in all this? These things do not seem to be related to the non Disney stuff that came before Kingdom Hearts, like Sora. Just because the two companies worked on one specific thing does not mean it will work for another, especially if there are different people involved.
It shows that there is a working relationship between the two. Just like how Microsoft and Nintendo had a friendly relationship prior to Banjo being revealed for Smash, which was previously seen as another impossibility as Microsoft was a direct competitor being another console manufacturer.
 
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