Ranting on Smash

[Deleted member]

Right. And that justifies all ******** arguments.

I was putting omnicrons statement in perspective. at least read the context of my post >_>

 

[Big-Cat]

The thins is, with all the items and the random insanity, the character matchups become pretty irrelevant. Because of this, balance doesn't really matter. The point of Sakurai making the game easy to pick up and putting in a couple of techs is that everyone can pick it up and feel comfortable playing, but he adds a skill curve so players can feel they've improved.

Just because a game isn't competitive in nature, doesn't mean you can't add skill factors.

What? Sakurai has never said anything of the sort. The closest thing he has said is

“I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years,” Sakurai said. “But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in video games, then? That’s why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl’s play balance.

http://masahirosakurai.com/updates/?m=201012

Essentially, he was looking to design a simplified fighter; what that means to anyone is up to interpretation. I'm trying to find a brief bit of balancing the characters a bit in the Iwata Asks interview. I'll post it later if need be.

@Atticus
Sakurai is more or less under Nintendo syndrome, "We tell you what you want". I've seen it several times in different places, and most people agree that Melee managed to meet that balance Sakurai was hoping for in Brawl.

 

[Odessa]

Melee was meant to be competitive.

Brawl was catered towards a casual audience.

Get over it, the series degenerated in terms of skill requirement to maximize profit.

 

[Jonas]

@Jonas
What about Dedede's BS that was discovered a week before release? Of course, I hardly pay attention to the Brawl metagame so my info is probably out of date. And wouldn't you want more defensive options that don't involve camping/zoning? Not saying you want chain grabs still in, but your response suggests you're indifferent to chain grabs.

Dedede's chain grab is not really a game breaker. It only works on about half the cast, and those affected aren't completely destroyed by it. All in all it's a great tool that sets characters up for a gimp or an edge guard, but I don't see why it's a problem. It's not a bad thing just because it involves consecutive grabs instead of hits.

Now, I main Bowser in Brawl, so from my perspective Dedede's cg IS really broken. Ideally, no character should be able to combo someone from 0 damage to death from a single grab, but I kinda have to deal with it and use a secondary against DDD because I play one of only 5 characters affected.

I already admitted that SSFIV's "tutorial" is far from perfect. At least it lets you see what the characters are capable of so you can decide on a character, though this can be difficult for some characters that are more strategic. Again, it's not a tutorial mode, but you get a feel for the character when you're in the Challenge Mode.

I don't completely disagree with this, but I still don't feel it's necessary for a game to have a challenge mode, and the lack of one doesn't detract from the quality of a competitive game.

 

[Mota]

Funny how Brawl wasn't meant to be a competitive game, yet has an option for Tournament...If it's a multiplayer game that pits people's skills against each other, I can't see how it can't turn competitive.

 

[Deleted member]

If it's a multiplayer game that pits people's skills against each other, I can't see how it can't turn competitive.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Funny how Brawl wasn't meant to be a competitive game, yet has an option for Tournament...If it's a multiplayer game that pits people's skills against each other, I can't see how it can't turn competitive.

Excessive randomness, lack of actual depth, overall poor design... There's a lot of **** that can just murder a game.

Also: http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2011/01/always-design-competitive.html related

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm pretty sure Mota meant that no matter what you do to a multiplayer game, there will be at least two people that will play the game competitively no matter how depthless, random or casual-exclusive you make it, and he's right.

BPC, I'd like to discuss your website's content. Maybe we could discuss excess depth because I typically hear people complain about having enough, but rarely ever about having too much.

 

[john!]

Hey, my friends and I were HARDCORE Mario Party players. We took that **** to a new level.

Seriously though, Mota is right.

 

[Lythium]

<implying that Mario Party doesn't have a tier list lol

I also kinda wish people would stop with the implications that Sakurai didn't make a competitive game. It's obvious, but people still play it competitively, and I'm pretty sure it's not the point of the blog. Sheesh.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

man lythium, you did the imply thing the wrong way

 

[Lythium]

But I used the imply colour and everything.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

>colour
lol

mario party is serious ****, kids. i dont know what you're talking about.

 

[Marc]

Combos in smash are very dynamic because of DI and that's its biggest strength as a competitive fighting series IMO. While a lot is still guaranteed or close to guaranteed, the fact that you can control where you're going after hits coupled with the fact that not getting back on stage rather than a certain amount of damage gets you killed(!), makes it so that no stock is entirely the same. Especially Street Fighter got kind of dull for me because I was simply spacing moves until I landed the right ones for some muscle memory combo that was always the same. Of course, the fun in that game lies in the mixups and the focus is on landing that initial hit, but once it's landed the engagement ends pretty much. A friend of mine likes to describe it as "two player training mode", which might illustrate my point better than any other words could. I also think supers and ultras quickly become overcentralizing, but I know some people dig the small hits to high payoff approach.

What infinites are you even referring to (OP)? The most notable ones in the smash games come from a grab. The fact that for most combos DI is a factor makes me dislike those infinites a lot, but they are limited to certain characters and matchups, even in Brawl. Ice Climbers are notorious for them since they're the only character which somewhat consistently infinites the entire cast in both Melee and Brawl, but they need to meet certain conditions before they can do it and are still very beatable. Damage or gravity scaling really doesn't apply to any smash game other than perhaps 64, because you typically won't get infinited as you might in some other fighting games. Chaingrabs can be pretty gay/boring, but if you don't really understand DI, you should probably welcome these more consistent factors and most of the top characters in the smash games don't rely on this, meaning it's not that big of a deal. Not or hardly getting grabbed is feasible if your character is somewhat decent, especially since you know that's the most dangerous thing in certain matchups. You wouldn't want to get hit by specific combo initiators in other fighting games either, so in a way it's a more traditional fighting game staple.

L-canceling in Melee might be an unnecessary technical nuisance, but it's one of the easiest advanced techniques to get down and the fact that you can screw people into messing it up in certain situations just adds a little more flavour. I don't really see the problem with it, considering the technical ceiling in games like Guilty Gear is fairly ridiculous and even within the constraints of Melee it becomes automatic quickly (people got it down early in the metagame). So yeah, I don't really see why you'd single that out, perhaps because it's always there and you absolutely have to learn it? Brawl doesn't have it at all anyway.

Smash actually has ways of teaching you the basics and there aren't a gazillion meters and separate systems to consider. What would you even want the games to tell you besides what they already do? Obviously tutorials are somewhat limited because the games aren't catered to a competitive community and a lot has to be discovered by said community itself, but I don't think that's ever been a problem.

The true biggest weakness for smash as a competitive series is that the games never get patched. Exploits become a part of the metagame for better or for worse, although that's entirely subjective in the first place.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

lol
I'm going to go to a tournament somewhere near me, make sure it's FILLED with highly competitive Smash players, choose MK, do infinite cape glitch, spam Mach Tornado, etc.

 

[Marc]

You'll be banned the second you do the IC glitch, but otherwise you'll just lose because Tornado is very punishable when predicted.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I think he singled it out because tbh, there isn't a single reason to not do it when given the chance to do it. Now you can mess your opponent up trying to do it, but I don't think that depth is really worth it's addition from a designers standpoint.

Kuso from what I understand feels the same way. I agree with him since, I feel like a tech needs some thought at times to be used like choosing when not to wavedash as opposed to L canceling where I don't think there is a time where a person would say no to L canceling.

 

[Marc]

The real depth L-canceling provides is giving you more ways to safely approach/space. People using it like that probably wasn't intended, but the metagame benefitted a lot from it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Think of it this way, Marc: If you remove the L-Canceling input (thereby making it automatic), those options after landing are still there. By taking away the shield input, you remove a needless technical barrier and you focus more on the options you and the opponent have. After all, depth has to do with what viable options are available to you not whether or not you press a button every time you land from an aerial..

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, this is what make smash so great. You are able to be either competitive or have a party game going on. L-canceling makes it easier to seperate the two in smash64 and melee. A single game, infinite possibilities.

 

[Marc]

Aerials auto-canceling would be more convenient as I don't care too much about capitalizing on people messing it up either, but seeing how it wasn't intentional in the first place and is easy to do, it seems like a minor complaint. I understand what you're saying, but really? The alternative isn't that it's automated, it's that it's not there at all or only for specific moves. I'd rather just press the button and have a better game.

 

[Deleted member]

isn't that it's automated, it's that it's not there at all

you can't call it automated if it isn't there, so those 2 options aren't really different, except the latter resulting in a slower game.

 

[Riddle]

Well I think he singled it out because tbh, there isn't a single reason to not do it when given the chance to do it. Now you can mess your opponent up trying to do it...

I'd just like to point out that this could be applied to things like throw teching and certain combos in traditional fighters as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

Tech grabs are really more for wakeup. Imagine if I knocked you down and then did a grab on your wakeup. The game would degenerate into who would be the first to land a knockdown once both players had the proper timing to grab on their opponent's wakeup. The only ones that could survive the knockdown would be those that have reversals with invincibility (ie SF4 DPs for some characters). Basically, it's a defensive technique and a balance safeguard.

 

[Riddle]

There are other ways to fix that problem though. I'm just pointing out that, similarly to L-canceling, you should tech a grab every single time. Theres really no reason not to.

Or, more to the point, you should carry out certain combos every single time.

 

[mastermoo420]

5 pages is a lot to read so I'll reply with what I think to the original post:

@Unstable Design:
Though unstable, you can't really expect tech grabs to stop chaingrabs; chaingrabs happen because of hitlag/throwlag or whatever. One thing you haven't really considered is that the dimension of aerial combat is a LOT more prominent in Smash. The only really way to do everything that you suggest is to make Smash into a game like Street Fight and MvC with its small (relative to Smash maps) maps and one jump and whatnot. Then it wouldn't be Smash anymore.

@Guide Dang It:
This is terrible, I'd say (no offense). Let's say that all aerials are three frames. Why should a move like Falcon's dair be given the same lag as Fox's? This is just asking for certain moves to be abused. Auto-canceling every aerial is a terrible idea for anyone who suggests it because you might as well make things have less lag to begin with, lol.

As for removing L-canceling... it's like asking to remove combos in the other fighter games. If you want to remove the reward you get for timing a button correctly, why not get rid of the reward for successfully executing a combo and dealing that extra damage? I mean, we could just have a button that does a whole combo on its own.

And aside from Epsi showing that picture of Z-canceling from the Nintendo site, I do agree that it is a problem. But a lot of knowledge of a game comes from its community that discovers bits and pieces of the game. Really, if you're interested in learning and getting better, you can just search it up on the internet nowadays and fight a good answer. A desire to learn is a part of dedication and improvement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not removing combos if you cut the landing lag in half at base level.

And no it's not the same as doing a combo, since L canceling is about just landing with an aerial and cutting lag in half. It's like telling people in Street fighter to hit a button in between each hit of an attack, you could very well do it, but it's still tedious as hell and is a turn off for players.

 

[GKInfinity]

Yeah, there really isn't a reason to not L-cancel, but the fact that it rewards people who can time it properly gives it a purpose in the game. The timings for L-canceling differ depending on the attack used and the situation (if the attack misses the opponent, hits the opponent, or hits the opponent's shield). It simply makes comboing harder for people who can't time L-canceling right and adds a skill requirement to the game.

 

[john!]

As a side note, the Project M folks decided to include L-canceling even though they had the option of automatic aerial lag reduction instead. I thought it was an idiotic idea, but apparently they think there is value in having technical barriers like that.

 

[Deleted member]

As a side note, the Project M folks decided to include L-canceling even though they had the option of automatic aerial lag reduction instead. I thought it was an idiotic idea, but apparently they think there is value in having technical barriers like that.

They are recreating melee. period.
that means L-canceling whether or not it was good game design. B+ for example decided to drop it.

 

[Jam Stunna]

They are recreating melee. period.
that means L-canceling whether or not it was good game design. B+ for example decided to drop it.

But the thing is, they really aren't recreating Melee. Aerial Glide Tossing, Snake and other elements weren't in Melee. They made the decision to change some things, so why not l-canceling.

 

[Revven]

Because our target audience wants L-canceling to be the same whereas other things they are willing to try and are excited for them. If we made L-canceling automatic it would drive everyone away and make them all disinterested in it. It would kill the project and we're not going to go that route.

 

[GKInfinity]

But the thing is, they really aren't recreating Melee. Aerial Glide Tossing, Snake and other elements weren't in Melee. They made the decision to change some things, so why not l-canceling.

They're taking everything from melee and putting it in project m. Yeah, they're adding stuff too, but they're still not taking out any major game mechanics that were in melee