Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Nah]

-Vulnerable for nearly a full second (28 frames)

Just one minor thing I want to point out, 28 frames is nearly half a second. This game runs at 60FPS, so 60 frames=1 second

 

[TriTails]

We have people who can climb with Luigi's Down B while not using a jump

To be fair, a lot of Luigi mains require different hand positions to actually mash at that speed.

Some players prefer to mash with their middle finger. That's not going to mash all buttons rapidly while not pressing them all at the same time.

Some players prefer to slide their nails on the B button, e.g. me. Even in 3DS this method works really well and I get a lot of height gain from it.

Some players prefer two B buttons and continously sliding their finger back and forth while pressing another button in between (James does this).

It's far faster if you just mash randomly on the buttons, actually. Cyclone mashing techniques are not applicable to regular mashing because they centralize around mashing that one button, and positioning can be awkward at times.

the dthrow to cyclone is a good 50/50.

Uh, nope. If you miss you can actually die.

It only works when people don't know how to jump. If you DI up and away, and mash jump, Luigi can't reach you.

Even if you DID airdodge... There's still a chance you can miss due to Luigi's airspeed. It's not reliable at all.

It's not even a 50/50. I don't know why people keep calling it that. DI away and jump (airdodge). Problem solved.

 

[JayZee1700]

Just one minor thing I want to point out, 28 frames is nearly half a second. This game runs at 60FPS, so 60 frames=1 second

Oh my bad sorry, thought it was 30 FPS

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Let's about rock smash for a second. It's a move that gives zard very generous super armor, can be b-reversed (and you can reverse it on the ground too), plus it has excellent duration (can someone give me the frame data? I forgot sorry), it's strong, and can do a decent amount of damage to shields not to mention the initial headbutt has enough KB to get a kill if you time it right making it an excellent counter option.
The only problem is that the damage from the debris is random and the range is subpar, the super armor is also completely dependent on the rock so if someone hits it with a strong smash and breaks it your super armor is going bye-bye, the biggest weakness though is that zard is dedicated to the move and if he's in motion the move stops all of his momentum making it super punishable on whiff. It's excellent for mix-ups, counters, and in some cases as a semi anti-air move plus it's one of zard's more go-to specials along with flamethrower, however it's weaknesses mitigate it's use and it's sometimes situation dependent. I'm going with B-rank for this.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Nosferatu should definitely be moved to C. The vertical hitbox is deceptively large, so it's very easy to punish someone shielding on a platform.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok started school, so expect the d-special list for tommorow (for real this time). We are so close and got a cool idea for last list (yeh d-special aint the last one

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

1 week later.....

 

[ARGHETH]

Jesus Christ. Gimme a minute, I'll make a new one.

EDIT:

Spoiler: DownB

A->S
E->D
E->D
D->C
C->B
D->C
Probably other stuff I'm forgetting.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Neither Robin or Shulk should have moved up, move them back down.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, Shulk's fine where he is. @Masonomace 's post on it earlier is more than enough reason.

 

[TDK]

Why is Disable in E when there's a garuanteed confirm into it that will lead into a kill?

 

[Flamegeyser]

FLUDD in A? I mean it has plenty of utility, but it's not quite THAT powerful, is it?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Not sure I agree with Mr. Game & Watch being so low on the list.

Don't get me wrong, Oil Panic isn't amazing or anything. It is super laggy, to the point that some characters with projectiles can punish you for absorbing successfully, let alone missing. On top of that, you may need to successfully use it up to three times to get the functionality of the move. With those things said though, if you do get a full bucket, you have AT THE BARE MINIMUM a frame 2 attack that does 18% damage in a wide area with forgettable knockback. Projectiles that have any substance to them (Fireballs, thunder jolt, any charged projectile, etc.) do anywhere from 30% to 60%, with enough knockback to K.O. at 0% in many cases. Heck, the strongest projectiles that are absorbed can kill at 0% from pretty much anywhere on the stage, and will also break shields. The attack can be comboed into from throw, and has much more reasonable end lag than the bucket does.

So, yeah, I guess I'm just not seeing how a move that in several matchups is comparable to the K.O. Punch or Rest is F Tier, when both of the aforementioned moves have made A tier.

You also have to factor into this the fear element of the move. Yes, you can never get Oil Panic if someone just never throws out projectiles you can absorb, but any move powerful enough to scare your opponent away from using one or more of their moves almost entirely doesn't sound like a bottom-tier move to me. As for those citing the matchups it does nothing in? Oil Panic works on roughly 3/5 of the cast (Though admittedly about a third of those it does work on it doesn't work well enough to be a huge threat). The characters it works on include high end threats like Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Fox (technically)

In any case, I can see it being in the C range due to inconsistency, but not bottom tier.

Also, am I the only one who thinks King Dedede might need to be in his own tier? Jet Hammer is just... so bad... it heavily limits your mobility while charging, so most characters can just throw stuff at Dedede to break the charge, and the fact that it builds up damage encourages opponents to run away and let you hurt yourself.

 

[ARGHETH]

Based on the twenty thousand "why is this character in E tier" posts, I'm going to move every non-DDD character in E into D tier next time.

 

[Molk]

Not sure I agree with Mr. Game & Watch being so low on the list.

Don't get me wrong, Oil Panic isn't amazing or anything. It is super laggy, to the point that some characters with projectiles can punish you for absorbing successfully, let alone missing. On top of that, you may need to successfully use it up to three times to get the functionality of the move. With those things said though, if you do get a full bucket, you have AT THE BARE MINIMUM a frame 2 attack that does 18% damage in a wide area with forgettable knockback. Projectiles that have any substance to them (Fireballs, thunder jolt, any charged projectile, etc.) do anywhere from 30% to 60%, with enough knockback to K.O. at 0% in many cases. Heck, the strongest projectiles that are absorbed can kill at 0% from pretty much anywhere on the stage, and will also break shields. The attack can be comboed into from throw, and has much more reasonable end lag than the bucket does.

So, yeah, I guess I'm just not seeing how a move that in several matchups is comparable to the K.O. Punch or Rest is F Tier, when both of the aforementioned moves have made A tier.

You also have to factor into this the fear element of the move. Yes, you can never get Oil Panic if someone just never throws out projectiles you can absorb, but any move powerful enough to scare your opponent away from using one or more of their moves almost entirely doesn't sound like a bottom-tier move to me. As for those citing the matchups it does nothing in? Oil Panic works on roughly 3/5 of the cast (Though admittedly about a third of those it does work on it doesn't work well enough to be a huge threat). The characters it works on include high end threats like Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Fox (technically)

In any case, I can see it being in the C range due to inconsistency, but not bottom tier.

Also, am I the only one who thinks King Dedede might need to be in his own tier? Jet Hammer is just... so bad... it heavily limits your mobility while charging, so most characters can just throw stuff at Dedede to break the charge, and the fact that it builds up damage encourages opponents to run away and let you hurt yourself.

It should also be noted that outside of absorbing projectiles, Oil Panic does have a secondary use as a recovery mixup. If G&W pulls out the bucket while in the air, then double jumps and pulls out the bucket again, it causes his double jump to rise significantly higher than it normally would, to the point where he can make it under say, battlefield from ledge to ledge when he wouldn't be able to otherwise. G&W's recovery is already great to begin with, so it's not something you'll be seeing super often, but it's worth taking into account in my opinion.

Unsure where i'd rank it myself, but i thought that information was worth sharing regardless.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I still can't agree with a move that gives easy grabs, allows momentum halt and safer landings with free hitboxes afterwards and doubles as a huge projectile being in the same tier as Lucario Or DDD's Down B.

Move Mega Man's Down b to D-Tier or C Tier. D is fine, but E is definitely not.

 

[ARGHETH]

I still can't agree with a move that gives easy grabs, allows momentum halt and safer landings with free hitboxes afterwards and doubles as a huge projectile being in the same tier as Lucario Or DDD's Down B.

Move Mega Man's Down b to D-Tier or C Tier. D is fine, but E is definitely not.

Based on the twenty thousand "why is this character in E tier" posts, I'm going to move every non-DDD character in E into D tier next time.

It's in E and isn't DDD's, so it's getting moved up.

 

[Routa]

Why is Disable in E when there's a garuanteed confirm into it that will lead into a kill?

The move itself is meh at best. Outside the setup it is just... nonexistent.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It should also be noted that outside of absorbing projectiles, Oil Panic does have a secondary use as a recovery mixup. If G&W pulls out the bucket while in the air, then double jumps and pulls out the bucket again, it causes his double jump to rise significantly higher than it normally would, to the point where he can make it under say, battlefield from ledge to ledge when he wouldn't be able to otherwise. G&W's recovery is already great to begin with, so it's not something you'll be seeing super often, but it's worth taking into account in my opinion.

Unsure where i'd rank it myself, but i thought that information was worth sharing regardless.

I can confirm this is indeed a useful technique. One of the best players in my area (and a good friend of mine) is a G&W "main" (I use that term loosely; he uses a good portion of characters; Doc, Luigi, Wario, Pit, to name a few, but Doc and G&W are his main threats), and he uses this technique all the time.

Not only does it help for getting that extra height in a jump, but it also helps in mixing up recovery fall speed and stalling momentum. I've seen him fake out opponents by double jumping, and then using the bucket to cancel the momentum of the jump (think like a double jump cancel in Melee), and then counter-gimp people with G&W's amazing Up B.

Bucket gains a lot of utility in terms of recovery and off stage.

Not to make it sound incredible, but it has more uses than meets the eye.

just think if bucket braking still existed...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I know we're way past this part of the discussion, but what's so good about Sonic's f-smash?

 

[Routa]

I know we're way past this part of the discussion, but what's so good about Sonic's f-smash?

It is strong and fast. Add to that Sonic leaning backwards when charging and you get yourself really good killmove.

 

[JayZee1700]

Jesus Christ. Gimme a minute, I'll make a new one.

EDIT:

Spoiler: DownB

A->S
E->D
E->D
D->C
C->B
D->C
Probably other stuff I'm forgetting.

Thank you for moving to C

E > C
Read the above comments, they say it all
D > C
Read my last message (It's a little while ago)
B > A
This move is a big reason why Wario is a decent character.
-Fast (Half Waft @ Frame 5, Full Waft @ Frame 9)
-Kills stupid early
-Super armor on Full Waft
-Easy to combo into due to Wario's incredible air mobility
-Safe on shield
-Waft with no charge makes you trip lmao

I see nothing bad about the Waft other than the time it takes to charge it, but is heavy, so he can live long enough to get rage, which makes his already strong fart even stronger.

I rest my case.

 

[Poisonous]

Waft should definitely be, at the very least, A tier if not S.

Looking at the move objectively, it's usable at both Half Waft state and Full Waft.

Half Waft:
-First available at 55 seconds, the move does 20% and gains 1% every 5 seconds capping at 30% (31.5% whilst fresh which is will always be).
-It hits frame 5 which is incredibly fast for such a potent kill move, almost twice as fast as Mario Usmash and twice as fast as Cloud's LCS. This makes it a potent OoS tool as it can be done after a Jump OoS making it take 11 frames to come out. This is comparable to Mario Usmash OoS.
-Half Waft is active for 4 frames and has a generous hitbox with no sourspots.
-Judging kill power is difficult as there are so many variables (how much is it charged, stage position, opp's weight), but half waft can be very powerful. At max charge, right before it becomes Full Waft, it has more knockback (but sends at a worse angle making it kill slightly later, but still very comparable). Center stage on a midweight character, it's not surpring to see a mid-charged Half Waft kill at 70-80%.
-Half Waft can be combo'd out of FF Dair (varying rage required for heavier characters, no rage required on very light characters such as Sheik, 62% needed for Greninja, 78% for Lucario, etc).
-It can also combo out of aerial bike, falling Up Air, Nair, Fair at specific %s, late hit of Dash Attack (tripping), and tech chases/jab locks due to its speed. Whilst it can combo off Nair, it will very rarely kill off a full Nair (Nair 1 into Nair 2) unless it is nearly at Full Waft as Nair stops linking into itself at relatively low %s for whatever reason. It can also combo off of Down Tilt if RTC'd and the late hit of Utilt combos nicely into Half Waft.
-Half Waft is the preferred variant when punishing whiffs or laggy options as it is much faster and easier to land

Full Waft:
-Available at 1:50, the initial hit does 27% and the late hit does 20%.
-Hits frame 9 with frame 5 superarmor (the same frame half waft comes out) that lasts until frame 10. This is identical to Mario Usmash and slightly faster than Cloud's LCS.
-The initial hitbox is only active for 2 frames by itself, and the rising hitbox is active for 16 frames. This can be extended by Wafting on Wario's bike which extends full Waft by 30 frames. You can extend half waft as well, but it gains as much duration as Full Waft does. I'll talk more on this in a bit.
-Full Waft is very dumb, and rage makes it even more ridiculous. https://gfycat.com/AnguishedRaggedAmericancrow This Gif speaks for itself.
-The Hitbox for Full Waft is just ridiculous as well http://puu.sh/tB9mp/a700fcbefb.jpg
-Full Waft can be combo'd off of Nair, falling Up Air, tech chases, and Jab locks. It can combo off of Dair vs lighter characters with enough rage (116% needed for Mewtwo, 141% needed for Sheik/Fox). The late hit of Utilt also combos very nicely into Full Waft too.

With Bike at ledge, Wafting on Bike with the right spacing and timing covers every single getup option for 46 members of the cast. 14 characters can roll as their only evasive option if done right, these are Mario, Zelda, Sheik, Duck Hunt, Falco, Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Falcon, Wii Fit trainer, Pacman, Dr. Mario, Megaman, and Ryu. The most relevant of those being Mario, Sheik, Pikachu, Lucario, Falcon, Megaman, and Ryu. Roll can be covered separately if it is anticipated as it is one of the more punishable ledge getup options.
Wafting on Bike extends the hitbox from 2 frames, to 32 frames. Wario can wait out the initial invicinibiltiy where a character cannot input a get-up for 20 frames, then waft and cover all options for those 46 members (including hanging on ledge) and cover almost every option for the other 14, bar roll. Additionally, Wafting on Bike is a very easy way to catch recoveries due to the ridiculous hitbox and since it lasts for 32 frames, unless a character can delay their recovery for exceptionally long, it's difficult to avoid.

In a pinch, Waft can be used to recover and as it has a potent hitbox whilst rising, it is difficult to safely stop him from coming back if he uses it. As it lasts for so long, it can also be used to catch airdodges and the like.

Waft also lets Wario camp effectively as he is charging it without needing to commit. This lets him play in special ways vs certain characters who don't like approaching themselves. Noteably, it let's him play uniquely vs Lucario. He can afford to not engage Lucario until Waft is available and then hit him to about 30-40% and wait for an over commitment or a confirm into Waft. If Wario lands Waft, odds are he's winning that game. As a move alone, any other character would be ridiculous with Waft.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

D > C
Read my last message (It's a little while ago)

I personally think Stone is right where it should be. The aerial version is too slow to hit people with outside of a read, the grounded version is unsafe on shield, both are super unsafe on a miss, and the special armor can be beaten by any character with just a grab, as well as command grabs or strong smashes. While it does have uses in edgeguarding, most of the cast get hit upwards and just recover over you now since you dropped so low and had so much endlag. You almost never see this move in high level play, and with good reason. It's just too slow, and most of its niche uses are done better by other moves.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Neither Robin or Shulk should have moved up, move them back down.

Nosferatu is C tier pretty much just by virtue of being a command grab, since command grabs are amazing.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

B > A
This move is a big reason why Wario is a decent character.
-Fast (Half Waft @ Frame 5, Full Waft @ Frame 9)
-Kills stupid early
-Super armor on Full Waft
-Easy to combo into due to Wario's incredible air mobility
-Safe on shield
-Waft with no charge makes you trip lmao

I see nothing bad about the Waft other than the time it takes to charge it, but is heavy, so he can live long enough to get rage, which makes his already strong fart even stronger.

I rest my case.

Also mention the fact that the hitbox gets extended significantly (I think it was 30 frames as Poisonous brought up earlier) when Wario uses it when near his bike.

 

[ARGHETH]

Basically, you guys want:
B-> A
E->C
E->D

PlusE->D

Correct?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So I suppose we're done?

If so, would it be a good idea to average every character's ranking on each respective move tier list by a 0-6 point scale?

S=6
A=5
B=4
C=3
D=2
E=1
F=0

 

[ARGHETH]

So I suppose we're done?

If so, would it be a good idea to average every character's ranking on each respective move tier list by a 0-6 point scale?

S=6
A=5
B=4
C=3
D=2
E=1
F=0

It's only been a day since the update, give it time.

I'll probably do that in the meantime, though, since that'll take a really long time.

EDIT: Did aerials, and apparently you guys think Olimar has one of the worst sets of aerials in the game...he got straight Ds and averaged below everyone except Little Mac.

 

[Dig Dug]

Did aerials, and apparently you guys think Olimar has one of the worst sets of aerials in the game...he got straight Ds and averaged below everyone except Little Mac.

Cuz everyone hates Olimar Nah, tbh his air game is pretty sub par. However, I don't think it's quite that bad. Personally, I'd rank them like this.

Fair-D
Bair-C
Uair-C/B
Dair-C
Nair-D

Just what I think. Won't give my reasonings unless people want them since those discussions are done and over with and I don't want to clog up the current discussion with a big long post about it.

 

[ARGHETH]

I did it.
Results were...interesting, to say the least.
Here's a list. These are in order, left to right and top to bottom

Spoiler: Rankings

4/B:
3-3.5:
3.5-4:
2/D:

Tier List format:

Spoiler: Tier List

Spoiler: other

• Doc with data
• 6 = S, 5 = A, 4 = B, 3 = C, 2 = D, 1 = E, 0 = F
• 41 characters were between 3 and 4, which were C and B tier respectively. This made the tier list rather odd looking, so I split it at the 3.5 line.
  
• Bowser and Bowser Jr were exactly one place apart (3.857 and 2.857)
• Bowser Jr and DDD were the only characters to not have a move in A or S tier.
• Apparently, multiple move tier lists used F instead of E (S A B C D F instead of S A B C D E).
• I have aerials, tilts, throws, smashes, and specials averaged out, but ranking them would take a while and it's late here.

TL;DR: characters go towards the middle because averages.

 

[BunbUn129]

This thread seems to overrate MK's up tilt and d smash which helped get him to 2nd, which is flat-out wrong looking at his current meta standing.

 

[Frihetsanka]

This thread seems to overrate MK's up tilt and d smash which helped get him to 2nd, which is flat-out wrong looking at his current meta standing.

Solution: Go through everything again and revise it! After Z-air has been done, of course. Z-air shouldn't take long though, seeing how only 5 characters have one.

 

[JayZee1700]

If there isn't any unfinished business in the Down Special list, I'm going to get started on the 5 Zairs.

In order of best to worst:

- Not only does she have the longest tether, it is an incredible zoning tool, combos directly into ZSS's scary grab, deals the most damage, and can even kill near the blast zone! It's clear that this is the best Zair in the game.

- Samus barely comes out as 2nd best over Link. Both have the same landing lag, both have the same range (Sort of. Will explain in Link bio) Link's Zair does more damage, but since Samus's comes out 4 frames faster, I think that makes her Zair better.

- With the second longest Zair, it comes out frame 12, does average damage than all of the other Zairs, and out-ranges Samus's Zair because they both have the same pixel measurements, but Link's position when he shoots the Hookshot extends the hitbox ONE PIXEL further. Combos directly into grab at certain %'s, has no landing lag, and is one of Link's best zoning tools.

- Although his tether is the shortest, it deals the second most damage. Also, it is an amazing zoning tool that, like everyone else, leads into his cool grab setups.

- Just because he has the second shortest tether and deals the least amount of damage, doesn't mean it's absolute crap. It still combos into grab, although not as easily as the other Zairs.

So:

S -
A -
B -
C -
D -

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Hey, ARGHETH , I was thinking of downloading image to my own Imgur and then posting the tier list to r/smashbros. Would you allow that?

 

[Funbot28]

Hey, ARGHETH , I was thinking of downloading image to my own Imgur and then posting the tier list to r/smashbros. Would you allow that?

U mean like all the lists? Cause I guess u can do that but like I will have to send u all the image files.

 

[ARGHETH]

Hey, ARGHETH , I was thinking of downloading image to my own Imgur and then posting the tier list to r/smashbros. Would you allow that?

Uhh
You could.
But I imagine that it wouldn't exactly go over well with them in general.

If you post it, then mention that the list isn't mean to rank character viability, considering it doesn't take into account none-move characteristics.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

U mean like all the lists? Cause I guess u can do that but like I will have to send u all the image files.

Nope, just the Google Doc and the list itself.

BTW, I just posted the tier list on r/smashbros, and here's the feedback!

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5qhnx9/smashboards_has_just_now_completed_their_own/

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Lucas's Z-air is extremely good. It's a good zoning tool but it's also an extremely good whiff punish tool. It gives access to Z-air -> Footstool infinite on around 10 characters and Z-air F-smash is true on more than half of the cast around kill percents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrYfRj_nz7c&feature=youtu.be

Also Lucas's PSI magnet is a lot better than Ness's and should be at least one tier higher. It's a good stalling move that can be used offstage to bait approaches it has a hitbox that semi-spikes people on hit and the healing muiltplier is 2,5x. Ness "only" has 1,5x. This is also the reason that Lucas/Lucario is such a good doubles team.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Small thing, but you think we could also rank pummels?