R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #5: Donkey Kong

[itsthebigfoot]

Being entirely reactionary = bad.

DK ultimately takes a risk in this matchup more than ROB because he HAS to approach. ANYTHING he does that ROB knows how react to can and WILL be punished. The key thing I should point out though is that ROB doesn't have to react to anything to force DK to approach. When he shoots a laser, he is able to deal damage from a distance, and DK does not have a way to deal damage from that distance.

The only time DK has a low risk situation to KO someone is from a headbutt combo, but there is significant risk trying to actually land the headbutt (don't believe me? Check your frame data, and it's MUCH easier to punish stuff out of shield in real life matches, which I don't do as effectively online), which is a more situational and punishable attack than the Giant Punch, minus the fact it doesn't need to be charged. Granted, this makes ROB need to think twice before shieldgrabbing, but ROB has more than one way to punish DK's approaches and DOES have enough time in between attacks to do something out of shield.

A DK that properly spaces is more easily punished than other high level characters that properly space. In order for DK to be perfectly spaced, he needs to keep his hurtbox AND his hitboxes away from attacks in risky situations, and he needs to avoid any projectiles that the opponent may have, not to mention he must keep the opponent away from his blind spots in front of him and below him, which are worse than the blindspots ROB has below and behind him. Other characters, they properly space, you attack their hitboxes, and end up getting hurt in the process. Or they just stay away from you and are able to hit you.

Yes this is theory talk, but you should keep in mind people have not been developing strategies for countering DK as long as they have for someone like....Snake. Snake was CLEARLY a broken character when Brawl came out. Most people thought DK sucked for a long time before Riot won a 60 man tourney (yeah, skler's guide to Link still says DK is worse than Link). Yes, people have been spending a lot more time countering the sacred 7 than they have countering DK, who I understand is doing decently right now.

All in all, I think you overestimate DK. I feel the main reason he's doing well right now is because he's a lesser used character than most, and not considered a "real" threat due to DDD's infinite chaingrab on him. See, I don't hear anyone saying DK has any "broken" defensive techniques. And for a good reason cause other characters have more broken stuff to use, and yet THOSE things are being countered in various ways as we speak. Snake's F-tilt for example can be punished on its ending lag. G&W's Back air can be Up-Bed out of shield easily by a few characters. Metaknight's Tornado can be countered with all sorts of dumb stuff and can be DIed out of easily by lightweights. These are examples of techniques that are CLEARLY more broken than stuff DK has, and you expect your stuff to stay not countered forever when in reality DK clearly isn't a character who is always able to force the game on his terms?

I'm gonna bring this out of the rob boards because it isn't really part of the discussion, but most of your points are off by a long shot

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, most of your matchup numbers are off by a longshot too.

I mean come on, DK doesn't lose to Fox. Fox can't take a hit and his recovery is terrible, and I don't care about his lasers. You outspace him and he takes too many risks trying to approach.

Also, Bowser doesn't win against Falco either. Good luck actually getting a grab on Falco.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Why are you guys trolling the ROB boards? They asked for some DK input not a huge theoretical debate.

These huge walls of text are ridiculous and when you read through one the next says the exact opposite. After you finish reading it all you really have nothing to go one but what the other players say.

 

[Sudai]

Don't worry Omni, I'll parse all the pertinent info for the official match synopsis.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

Sudai has the matchup description pretty much nailed on page one. HOWEVER. for killing i would actually emphasize the use of ROB's spike while DK recovers. Yes, the really laggy spike that has very little uses. It can get in some quick KO's if the DK plays a ledge game.

Otherwise, Bair and projectiles are your main friend in this matchup. (uair if DK is above you)

 

[i1337]

just a random note, dk's dsmash should kill rob somewhere between 105%-115%, depending on the stage.

 

[stingers]

Yes, the really laggy spike that has very little uses.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

robs spike is the bowser fsmash of aerials

except the drawback is worse, and it only kos off the stage

so its crappy bowser fsmash off the stage.

but yeah, sudai nailed it, 50/50ish, and i'd ban japes, jamn knows why

 

[Sudai]

Banning japes is a good call, imo. If it's legal at the current tourney. If not I'd suggest you guys ban Lylat instead. If japes is legal though, ban it.

I'm content calling this a 50-50 match-up and calling case closed unless anyone else really wants to contribute.

 

[Cyphus]

i like all thats been said so far.
ROBs a good target for a chain of B.airs (usually 3 in a row) if he's caught in the air. I think the more farmiliar the DK player becomes, the less effective laser and gyro becomes. I've learned to powershield them much better now, and it helps my approach. Regardless, they will hit ur huge body from time to time, and they can **** up his recovery.
Both characters can live to 150% often. Sudai usually kills me w/ B.air and SexKick. I usually kill him w/ D.Smash/F.air..maybe? iunno

i think all in all its a very fair fight. ROB and DK dont really have anything truly "supereffective" against each other. 50/50 sounds right.

I REALLY donnot like brinstar for DK. I've tried it tournament after tournament and it just doesn't work. Yea the sides and cieling are nice, but the ground simply does not work for me. It takes away SO much of his spacing game. I like Battlefield and PictoChat the most.

 

[Sudai]

<3 Cyphus.

Why haven't you been on AIM lately, didn't get a chance to ask you to come here till we got everything wrapped up. Hah.

 

[blakinola]

I've always had trouble with ROB. You have no choice but to approach, and you get hit for everything. I give the advantage to ROB (55-45) simply because ROB can just camp DK and win if the ROB isn't a ******.

if it's the last stock and rob is using upB i always go for spike, because he can't air dodge. the worst that'll happen is a simultaneous exchange, but the kong will live. (at high enough percents of course). Pretty much everything DK does can be punished (even dtilt, the fastest tilt!).

DK's safe with multiple air bairs to juggle rob and the occasional africa punch out of nowhere. Ugh it's so hard to say sometimes, but it really comes down to the character's skills and who is playing who better at this point. It's anyone's match. But not overwhelmingly in anyone's favor.

 

[Sudai]

Ultimo, powershielding makes handling the projectiles and approaching a -lot- easier for DK and it's not too hard to learn the timing.

As for your off stage DAir idea, it's pretty bad. ROB's UAir is disjointed and faster than DK's DAir. Just an FYI. : )

 

[blakinola]

Everytime I've fastfalled it, it comes out and we exchange hits. The Dair stays out for a while. But I guess our experiences vary.

I'm not amazing at powershielding, guess I should practice that. But I'm pretty aggressive, so that works against me sometimes :/

 

[Sudai]

Yeah, powershielding is a bit tricky to learn at first but it's pretty easy if you just sit down and learn it or try to do it a lot in matches.

As for the DAir, even fastfalling it doesn't make it disjointed. In general (save for specific match-ups) I do rising UAirs when recovering and the opponent decides to be above me. ROB's UAir is nicely disjointed so in theory ROB shouldn't get spiked by DK but if it works, it works. At worst you take some damage from UAir and recover in a potentially bad position (ROB's UAir won't put you in a bad position often at all though). Best case scenario, ROB is dead. Actually, I'm gonna correct myself real quick. If the ROB has enough fuel, they can just drop down instead of doing a rising UAir and let you die. XD

But yeah, as said, if it works it works and personally, I rarely think to drop lower when I'm confident I can beat a DAir with a UAir.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Powershielding helps DK alot in general. Its worth while to practice for any matchup, particularly those with projectiles.

Whats the prefered stage for each character to play the other on?

 

[DRaGZ]

Powershielding helps DK alot in general. Its worth while to practice for any matchup, particularly those with projectiles.

Whats the prefered stage for each character to play the other on?

Wide and clear line of sight seems to be the preferred kind of stage for R.O.B., considering he does not want to get screwed by DK's outrageously good close-up game. And I'm guessing DK wants the platforms and close-up arenas.

 

[Sudai]

I CP FD and if we got that on the neutral I CP lylat. Probably one of the few fights I don't CP an actual CP. Haha

Always, always ban Brinstar against DK. I tend to ban Japes if Brinstar isn't allowed, thoough. His up-b is ******** here. :/

 

[lord karn]

Last time I fought a DK I banned Green Greens. Too much nonsense on that level. He took me to Lylat and I got a triple up air combo on him doing 60% coming through the stage with a wave bounced up b. So cool. I also comboed him into my bouncing gyro at some point without meaning to. Brinstar is definitely more advantageous for him, but the match can change more rapidly on Green Greens do to some random gay thing.

 

[Sudai]

Green Greens is banned most places. :x

 

[CBK]

Play an amazing Dk and you'll see what I mean and don't let me get a hold of your top or it's over!!!

 

[CBK]

Still think it's a 60:40 DK, but then again I've only played Tommy, Hitori, *random R.O.B.s* Oh new to the fame scene if you know him Demon?

 

[Sudai]

Never heard of Demon, Hitori is a decent ROB, but T0mmy? Did you don't know how bad we all laugh at T0mmy, do you? Haha

 

[CBK]

DK only needs to worry about Top when it's laying on the ground, other than that he can dominate rush down R.O.B. since dodge and down smash are very punishable by DK. I love running into a dodge down smash with Congo Copter becasue of SA frames **** Copter still hits. Down b works wonders for getting them air born. Without top Lazer is all about LOLOLOLOL for DK, he should never fear. If he's charging a punch, Dk's buffer dodge while lazer hits SA punch charge is still going. Don't forget about nine wind or Forward B.

 

[CBK]

No I dont', but I'll MM any R.O.B. Sure boast boast I don't mean. If anyone is going to the SF tournament I'd love to friendly at least to show you guys what DK is capable of.

 

[CBK]

So at least you can compare and see how the matchup is.

 

[Sudai]

CBK, I play Cyphus' on a consistent basis, I'm fairly sure I know what a good DK can do.

Also, I really get the impression that you don't know what the hell you're talking about based solely on the way you type. Welcome to the ROB boards. : )

 

[CBK]

Okay Sudai.... well what can I say that's the input I'm putting in and if you don't like it don't take it. I hope your coming over for the West coast east coast tourney in the summer down in Cali. It would be fun to see what happens.

6:4 DK
Play an amazing Dk and you'll see what I mean and don't let me get a hold of your top or it's over !!

 

[Sudai]

I was actually planning to be there, we'll get some friendlies/MMs in there. ; )

 

[CBK]

OH MM definately if you want to make it a main even lets say this make it big like 200 bones?

 

[Sudai]

Sadly that's a bit much for me. I'm on a budget and just going's gonna cost me a lot of my budget. I can do $20 if you want though.

 

[CBK]

sure that would be great! Hope to see you there!~

 

[stingers]

Hell I'll MM you for $200 if you come to NC XD

 

[CBK]

Where? NC>>>>>>.hrm...NO clue where your talking...which state?

 

[stingers]

...are you serious

 

[CBK]

Okay wow um you guys gonna have any invitationals any time in the near future, thats the only way I would go.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Where? NC>>>>>>.hrm...NO clue where your talking...which state?

lol .

 

[Syde7]

Where? NC>>>>>>.hrm...NO clue where your talking...which state?

*hands him a 4th grade Social Studies book*

Jk, it was just too good to pass up.

btw... North Carolina

 

[Syde7]

Sorry for the double post... but, i dun know if anyone knows this or not (you probably do)... that the SAF on DK's up B isn't immediately at start up. Its slightly after. You can squeeze in a d-smash before the SAF kicks in. Just... thought id mention it. Sorry if its old news.

 

[Demp]