Quick question

[Tee ay eye]

How do you punish Falco's double laser from the edge?

 

[Stos]

counter .

 

[Ndot]

^^^^what he said.

 

[AlcyoNite]

if u know he'll do it, counter...

i suppose u could also space, cc the lasers, and d-tilt

 

[Tee ay eye]

Oh ****, duh.

Stupid me.

 

[Weimdog]

crouch cancelling never seems to work for me against lasers... you sure that works?

 

[Brainjack]

no cc is not the answer

like they said, counter

but also if you know it's coming, i do this sometimes

either sh shieldbreaker or shffl nair (this only works if the falco is pretty good at getting the low as lasers, and i mean if they're not....then it's even easier to punish i.e. fsmash, shieldgrab, etc.)

 

[AlcyoNite]

no cc is not the answer

like they said, counter

but also if you know it's coming, i do this sometimes

either sh shieldbreaker or shffl nair (this only works if the falco is pretty good at getting the low as lasers, and i mean if they're not....then it's even easier to punish i.e. fsmash, shieldgrab, etc.)

cc would equate f-airing after being tagged by a laser. the purpose of cc-->d-tilt would be to get a free gimp, but again this would have to be properly spaced.

idk, i just feel like any marth that counters will soon be punished.

 

[IrArby]

I just watched the Fast 1 M2K Dashizwiz set earlier today and there at least two times where M2K jumps just as DSW does his LHDLs and the laser serve to keep Marth airborne and just before he hits the ground M2K hits him with a delayed Fair an Uair on a second occasion I think (he's so low to the ground the second time I couldn't be sure). Check it out at, he does it at least one on Yoshi's Story on the left edge.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think Counter would be better because the fair would probably hit them when they hit the ground which means they could shine or shield, and they would regain their second jump, making them harder to edgeguard.

 

[AlcyoNite]

I just watched the Fast 1 M2K Dashizwiz set earlier today and there at least two times where M2K jumps just as DSW does his LHDLs and the laser serve to keep Marth airborne and just before he hits the ground M2K hits him with a delayed Fair an Uair on a second occasion I think (he's so low to the ground the second time I couldn't be sure). Check it out at, he does it at least one on Yoshi's Story on the left edge.

this is what i was referring to. purposefully getting tagged upon descent to lead into a fair --> edgeguard (only i suggested d-tilt).

good eye, arby

 

[ArcNatural]

cc would equate f-airing after being tagged by a laser. the purpose of cc-->d-tilt would be to get a free gimp, but again this would have to be properly spaced.

idk, i just feel like any marth that counters will soon be punished.

While I understand the take the laser in the air to fair approach. I don't see what CC has to do with it. You can't CC in the air. You can fastfall after the laser though.

 

[AlcyoNite]

While I understand the take the laser in the air to fair approach. I don't see what CC has to do with it. You can't CC in the air. You can fastfall after the laser though.

cc --> d-tilt >.>

 

[ArcNatural]

Ah I just got mixed up there, I know you had the cc -> dtilt but for some reason I thought you were implying CC for both tactics

 

[AlcyoNite]

Ah I just got mixed up there, I know you had the cc -> dtilt but for some reason I thought you were implying CC for both tactics

saight.

btw gj 1,000 posts!!

only 8001 more to go!

 

[BrawlLover]

obviously if you expect it, counter (as Marth, because I main Marth), the only problem is that sometimes you don't expect it, that's all it is to it, it mainly revolves around you reading your opponent and guessing, if you guess wrong, you get hit, if not, free kill

 

[IrArby]

elvenarrow3000 definetly has a point that said Falco would probably be grounded by the time you get you aerial out but, this tech isn't widely known enough that many Falcos would react to it in time since they probably wouldn't expect it. Also, this tech takes really good timing and prediction for the initial jump I'd imagine wheras Counter is a little more open-ended.

Also, and I'm asking not stating on this one, if you get hit by the second laser after you tried to counter the first laser wouldn't you be interuppted by the second laser and take damage/stun accordingly? I'm really not sure but I'll try to look into it tomorrow unless someone else can answer me first.

Oh yea you could CCgrab the lasers but I'm not sure that'll work 100% either if they've got the lasers nice and low. That would probably be % based since laser knockback would have to be taken into account. Still, I'm really not positive on this either. IDK for sure so someone more knowledgeable please discuss.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Counter hits frames fourteen to twenty when it is activated (hit by something) and is invincible from frames one through sixteen. Falco's lasers fire once per sixteen frames in the air, which means you would get the hit on them first.

...so honestly, the invincibility frames don't matter, but... they're there.

 

[BrawlLover]

or...double jump over them...

 

[AlcyoNite]

or...double jump over them...

at which point you limit ur ability to punish. the idea is to be able to control the situation and deal damage because u know what the falco will do.

 

[BrawlLover]

then you are dumb and can't space

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...what are you going to space when you're double jumping over them? Dair? To spike them into the ground, where they'll be waiting for you with a combo since you're in the air doing a high lag move?

 

[BrawlLover]

wow i guess i'd have to suck and just go right above him, no, you obviously don't understand what i said

 

[AlcyoNite]

What's written here already should be more than enough to answer TC's question.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Then explain, please.

 

[Stos]

wow.

it really depends where you're at in the stage -_- and predictions.

if your really close to the edge and you predict hes gonna laser, counter.

if your close to the edge and you dont know what to do, shield lasers to grab or Up B reverse. -_-

or just move away from the edge.

also you can cc the lasers to Dtilt.

 

[BrawlLover]

Then explain, please.

double jump and space your self, he has to land, you still have the advantage, learn to play against good falcos like eggm and you'd know what i mean

 

[Miggz]

Yeah I'd simply counter, especially if you see it coming. Also, practice wave dashing out of your shield.

 

[BrawlLover]

or be safe and keep a 'safe distance' and light shield with r/l

 

[IrArby]

LHDL obviously gives Falco a huge advantage over most players recoving from the ledge. Personally, I wouldn't bank on a shield grab or a CCdtilt since Falco is basically lagless once he hits the ground. I'd go with counter, the M2K thingie, or if they're at a high percent, a reverse UpB since that comes out ridicously fast.

Spacing is also one of the better options since Falco usually has Frame advantages on you in close quarters. You have to make your combos count since Falco can approach pretty much whenever.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Reverse Dolphin Slash is seven frames... it's not that fast.

Also, being above Falco when he's not in hitstun/recovering isn't really a good thing.

 

[Havokbringer]

I would counter if your too close to the edge otherwise I would space it so that I shield both laser but not get shined.

After that you could fair out of shield or go for a grab.

 

[BrawlLover]

Reverse Dolphin Slash is seven frames... it's not that fast.

Also, being above Falco when he's not in hitstun/recovering isn't really a good thing.

you are still not getting it, who the hell in their right mind would jump RIGHT ABOVE falco vertically with him having inv frames and landing on ground, stop being stupid, unless that's how you play, jump into ****, then you will never get better, control your char, bait them but never get so close while double jumping over them, dangit

 

[IrArby]

Reverse Dolphin Slash isn't that fast but you can't CC > Grab, Dsmash, or Dtilt it like you could against a jab or dancing blade string which are the only other moves I can think of with comparable speed.

Also, being above and far in front of Falco, along with PowerShielding/Waveshielding, is the best way to avoid Laser **** if you don't have Platforms to work with.

Watch this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLDGiwUEsc

(I'm sure you've seen it before) 1:50 M2K double jumps to avoid the laser approach and I'm guessing baits it or accidentally lands backwards (probably not) either way he gets the counter off and does something similar a few seconds later where he hits with a full jumped fair and hits him with a bair on the other side on his way down. Coincidentally, Dashizwiz CCDtilts M2K's Dancing blade combo at 2:03 so like I said don't do that **** on the edge against LHDL. Its easy to mess up the spacing. Plus CC is way to ****ing broken if your good at it.

 

[BrawlLover]

the fact of the matter is, there's several ways to get around it, you don't need to be dumb and be at the edge and take the ****

 

[elvenarrow3000]

BrawlLover, I think you're just trolling now, because your strategy doesn't make any sense and I'm pretty sure it's in no way superior to just Countering.

 

[2-Tone]

BrawlLover, you are not making a good argument here. Think about it. Countering the LHDL equals the falco is off the ledge without a jump after being hit. A falco off the stage without a jump is a dead falco most of the time especially against marth. Your double jump strategy is useless. Why would you let him back to the stage and put yourself in a vulnerable position above him? Even if you're not directly above him there is no guarantee that you're going to connect upon falling.

Counter the lasers and then you're set for every edge-guarding option that marth has against falco. Stop trying to make things more difficult and use some common sense.

 

[ArcNatural]

BrawlLover, I think you're just trolling now, because your strategy doesn't make any sense and I'm pretty sure it's in no way superior to just Countering.

BrawlLover, you are not making a good argument here. Think about it. Countering the LHDL equals the falco is off the ledge without a jump after being hit. A falco off the stage without a jump is a dead falco most of the time especially against marth. Your double jump strategy is useless. Why would you let him back to the stage and put yourself in a vulnerable position above him? Even if you're not directly above him there is no guarantee that you're going to connect upon falling.

Counter the lasers and then you're set for every edge-guarding option that marth has against falco. Stop trying to make things more difficult and use some common sense.

...

I don't even know what to say. You don't know the benefits of double jump baiting lasers vs countering? Honestly? Should I even have to answer this?

WHAT IF THEY DON'T LASER? What if they just ledgehop? Now, which is better? Double jump baiting lasers, or countering?

 

[Ryan-K]

if you are fighting falcos who always ledgehop double lasers find some better falcos to fight

marth is pretty safe during his dj when falco is on the edge stop being stupid lol

elvennarrow he isn't trying to be right above marth

if you bait the laser you land on him with a fair or whatever

if you are in a position where falco can uair you or something you aren't spacing right. if you counter whenever you think falco is gonna laser you just make yourself vulnerable to bair at high percent dair at low percent or waveland back on stage to whatever, or you just let falco get back on for free with illusion which isn't countered unless you are far from the edge

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I thought the whole point of the question was that you predicted lasers. Obviously, if you don't think they're going to laser, then you should do something else.