Questions about Sonic's Recovery (or recovery in general, I suppose)

[McFox]

Anyone who has played the game, please help me out here.

It seems like Sonic has about a million options for getting back to the stage, and seeing as how this is old-skool-style Sonic we're talking about here and not 3D Sonic, I will have no moral qualms about playing him (seriously, if Sonic Wind had shown up, I wouldn't be able to play as him).

That said, one thing does confuse me. I know that Sonic can do moves out of his up B, meaning that his up B doesn't send you into special fall. He's also got his double jump (obviously), his Footstool Jump, and his side B which, correct me if I'm wrong, does a little hop (I'm not 100% on this one).

My question is, what option are actually available when you're recovering? Ok, so I get hit way out to the side. If my side B is a recovery move, I use it first, if not, I double jump. The opponent comes out to gimp my recovery, but I FSJ them. Then I up B. Do I have any other options after up B? Can I do side B?

Or, say I only get knocked out a little ways, and the opponent immediately follows me down. Can I up B over them, FSJ them as they attempt to recover, and then use my own double jump, since I haven't used it yet?

I'm kind of confused, and yeah in two days I can try it out for myself, but I need something to talk about.

*EDIT* And I would have put this in SamuraiPanda's topic about FSJ, but that's more about actually strategy and implementation. This is just a topic so someone can answer my question. And hey, maybe someone will think of something in answering my question that no one has yet.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

You can't do anything aside from a moves/aerial dodge after the upb.

Side-b and Down-b are able to be used as recovery moves, but be careful if you don't have a jump, because you'll be stuck in that ball. Really, homing attack to upb is all you need in most situations.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Homing Attack (N-special) is decent (and gets much better if your opponent is in range to home into...I could potentially see a teammate helping you recover with this in teams if it homes into your teammate).
Always use Spin Dash (F-special) or Spin Charge (D-special), the former preferred, BEFORE using the double-jump, for the reason that IoZ explained.
As for the Spring Jump (U-special), after you use it, you cannot use the double-jump (you lose it if you haven't used it before), and you cannot do anymore specials until you land or get hit.
Now, the Footstool Jump does NOT count as your regular or double jump; it's special! As long as you are not under a free fall, you can do it. It IS possible to Footstool Jump on people after the Spring Jump (claims Sonic Orochi), so if you Spring Jump, and they edge hog you, you can Footstool them while they are hanging if you get close enough. This makes Sonic pretty much impossible to edge hog if the Sonic player knows what they are doing and doesn't mess up.

 

[Emerald Chaos]

and seeing as how this is old-skool-style Sonic we're talking about here and not 3D Sonic, I will have no moral qualms about playing him (seriously, if Sonic Wind had shown up, I wouldn't be able to play as him).

Ok......What?

Ummm look again at his character model. Did you miss he green eyes? Or maybe the buckles on his shoes? Is he a sprite? No. He IS in 3-D. This. Is. NOT Classic Sonic. And even mst of the moves which are based off of Classic SOnic come from a 3-D game. (e.g. The wind-up punch comes from Sonic the Fighters)

I guess you won't be playing as Sonic since he has a homing attack. Which is a move based off of his 3-D games. He also has two taunts based off of his post 1999 style.

It really annoys me that when people see Sonic being done well they INSTANTLY say that it's "old-skool". Even when it blatantly isn't. It isn't the Sonic of 1991 come into the future and he doesn't just have one move (No, seriously).
People seem to want to pointlessly entirely deny that the Sonic of today can be done well so much as to say that it's classic Sonic even when it isn't.

And really, if you wouldn't play as a character JUST because of one move (Which would have probably have been a lot better than the modern technique that he actually got), then you are even more petty than I am typing this up. [/end rant]

And I apologise for going off topic But I've seen it said one to many times about Sonic in Brawl and it really annoys me.

 

[McFox]

Wow, you totally pegged me. You're so smart.

When Brawl was announced and people began immediately talking about Sonic's inclusion (of course), EVERYONE added the Sonic Wind to his moveset, because they thought it would be a good idea? The fact of the matter is that I see Sonic Wind and everyone's want of it being in the game as a symbol of what has destroyed the character in the last ten years for me.

See, here's the thing. Sonic the Hedgehog cannot be done in 3D. At all. Ever.

Not well, at least.

Every 3D "adventure" he's appeared in has been an adventure through bugginess and tedium. There has been nothing appealing about a 3D Sonic adventure game, ever. And I own several of them, because I didn't want to give up on him. Sonic Adventures 1 and 2, and Sonic Heroes.

I completed Sonic Adventure 1. It was not great, but it wasn't a terrible game. The parts where you got to play as Sonic were fun. The rest of the game... was not.

Then came Sonic Adventure 2, which wasn't as good as 1, and also introduced us to Shadow the Hedgehog (Because where could we get brooding mysteriousness from the Sonic series before that? Oh wait, we didn't need it.). But hey, the Sonic and Shadow levels were fun, and if Shadow HAD died at the end of the game, it would be much better. But seeing as how he keeps coming back (I know he was Super Shadow when he fell to Earth, I don't care, it was much better story-wise for him to stay dead), I can fault them for exploiting Shadow's appeal over keeping their artistic integrity.

It should be mentioned at this point that Sonic Adventure 2 is also incredibly buggy. Trying to run across ramps half the time ends up with me falling to the lower platform, instead of actually completing the animation.

I own Sonic Heroes because I received it as a gift, and haven't played it for more than several hours. I was stuck on a pinball part of a level for so long that I have never returned to the game.

I have never played Shadow the Hedgehog, but seeing as how it was universally panned by everyone, ever, I see no need to.

The most recent "reinvention" of the franchise on the PS3/360 was nothing new at all. I never played as Silver, but then, if I wanted to play as Silver the Hedgehog, I'd buy a game CALLED Silver the Hedgehog. I played the demo where you got to play as Sonic, and it handled just as terribly as the Sonic Adventures that came before it.

Sonic used to be a fun series. Dr. Robotnik stole animals and turned them into robots, to what I always assumed was remake the entire world in the image of Robotropolis or whatever. Sonic could release the animals inside by jumping on them or smashing them, and so you set out freeing animals until you could stop Robotnik.

That was the plot of those games. Was there ever need for a cut-scene longer than 3 seconds? No. It works, and the game were fun. If you were running full-speed, you could get through three loops, jump way off a platform and smash into robots, using their momentum to send you into a spring, etc.

The new Sonic games have nothing in common with the old ones. Metroid is a good example of a 2D game that can actually translate into 3D without being crappy. Sonic is an example of wasted potential to the nth degree.

What's the only good Sonic games that have come out in the last 10 years? The Sonic Advance games, and the Sonic Rush games. And oops! Guess what? Those are all 2D games.

~~~

My POINT in all this is that while yes, you are right, the Sonic in Brawl is MODELED after 3D Sonic, and YES, he does use the homing attack which does not appear in 2D Sonic games, he still doesn't remind me of 3D Sonic. The reason I say this is that, if Sega were given the chance to make Sonic's moveset instead of Sakurai, you can bet that it would have included a lot more than just variations of the spindash. Sonic Wind would have made an appearance, and tons of other unnecessary moves, just to try and make the character relevant again.

What Sega doesn't realize is that adding all that stuff IS what makes the character unappealing to fans of Sonic. Sonic's roots are simple, and that's where people want to see him stay. Sure, the Homing Attack comes from Sonic Adventure, but it's still a simple variation on the spindash. It's old-skool in style and flavor, and it hearkens back to a simpler time in Sonic's life where he didn't need all of that unnecessary ****, and just ran around and destroyed robots.

Saying I wouldn't have played as Sonic because of the one move is a bit of a hyperbole, but I would have been disappointed beyond belief.

This IS old-skool Sonic not because of his character model or his moves, but because the overall design of him is simple. Over half of his moves have him turning into a ball and smashing into stuff. That's what the Sonic I know from my childhood would do, not the new Sonic who has destroyed most of the nostalgia I feel for his character.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

This is why I dislike Sonic fans. Even admins get off track and start ranting about his games in a topic dedicated to Sonic's recovery. Take the fanboyism to AIM/MSN, please, guys. Or to a lame thread like "Who likes Sonic T.D. I do thats who". Don't plague SSBB threads with arguments about which games sucked and which games rocked, nor characters that are irrelevant to SSBB gameplay, it's poor form.

Seriously, Sonic fans are ********. We don't have the Samus fans bashing on various Metroid games, or the LoZ fans talking about how Twilight Princess sucked. Even the Ness/Lucas fans are seemingly more mature than us. Coming to the Sonic boards is like going to the Roy boards of old. Stop being rabid fanboys, and start being competitive-minded players.

Or go to some Sonic fansite/gamefaqs so you can rant about whatever. Seriously, guys, it's getting old.

 

[ChewyChase]

Wow I was just about to post that, McFox, you and I could be clones...

2.5D is where Sonic belongs, I wanted a level editor SO badly for Sonic Rush Adventure.

At least there's leaderboards for the time trials... which I dominate 2 of.

What is with all the Mods in the Sonic forum though, eh? They all do know who the best is XD...

 

[Dragonbreath]

This is why I dislike Sonic fans. Even admins get off track and start ranting about his games in a topic dedicated to Sonic's recovery. Take the fanboyism to AIM/MSN, please, guys. Or to a lame thread like "Who likes Sonic T.D. I do thats who". Don't plague SSBB threads with arguments about which games sucked and which games rocked, nor characters that are irrelevant to SSBB gameplay, it's poor form.

Seriously, Sonic fans are ********. We don't have the Samus fans bashing on various Metroid games, or the LoZ fans talking about how Twilight Princess sucked. Even the Ness/Lucas fans are seemingly more mature than us. Coming to the Sonic boards is like going to the Roy boards of old. Stop being rabid fanboys, and start being competitive-minded players.

Or go to some Sonic fansite/gamefaqs so you can rant about whatever. Seriously, guys, it's getting old.

Can we get this man a sticky, please?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I wish, but the mods are too busy fanboying to notice. Seriously, Kuja and I should both have our threads stickied by now, but certain people are still too busy going "OMG NOTHING AFTER SNK3 WAS ANY GOOD".

Fail.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Just admit Sonic fans. The Sonic games are now made of phail. SEGA and their fans killed Sonic not Sonic himself.

Anyways I also found something really odd at some point when you do the Spindash it does like a rainbow and then you could a quick homing attack.

It happens a really random times but anyways just through it out there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Hey Izzy, youre an awesome dude, but dont you think youre being a bit harsh. I think that i take opinions from both of you. yes sonic was always better in 2/2.5 D but as with all of these game franchises, it has to evolve. Now while i liked SA 1 and 2, i ddo believe that every non- handheld sonic game since than has been subpar. and thats why it hasnt happened with other series'. the games that brought mario, link, and samus to 3D were all very well made and thought out, and their sequels have continued that thread. i think this is because the devs. of those series have stayed true to the roots for the most part. mario, still jumps and throws fireballs. linkis still the silent hero that saves the princess from ganon, and samus still shoots down metroids and space pirates. but sonic had something of a departure from his pre-DC style. and while SA 1 and 2 were good, their sequels continued to folo the tried and true method less and less with less and less effort. until the games were filled with gimmicky and superfluous nonsence... (Silver the Hedghog... WTF) and no longer resembled the sonic games of old. but at the same time it doesnt do us any good to complain about it because you know what, in this day and age, the gaming technology that we have now will make everything b4 STH3AK obsolete and almost unplayable trust me ive tried. now having sonic wind as an option in this game would have made me dis like him a little bit and i agree with mcfox that giving sonic team control over his moveset would have been disasterous, but at the same time izzy is correct as well in saying that these posts have almost nothing to do with the game and are thereby, "in poor form" (even tho im doing it right now... plz dont hate me izzy!!) the non-related-to-brawl-rants about sonic need to stop. the original question of this thread was answered so i think its appropriate that this thread be promptly shut down and that everyone learns from the experience

 

[InterimOfZeal]

^this is exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't even read your post because of punctuation/ranting about the games.

I'm not being harsh. If you want to discuss Sonic games, do it on GFAQs, or in a ******** thread (which should be locked, anyway). Don't waste anyone's time with it here. We're trying to learn to play the character, not learn the history of Sonic and fanboi about him.

EDIT: Dark Knight, does it actually show a rainbow, or are you talking about how it arcs?

 

[DarkKnight077]

^this is exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't even read your post because of punctuation/ranting about the games.

I'm not being harsh. If you want to discuss Sonic games, do it on GFAQs, or in a ******** thread (which should be locked, anyway). Don't waste anyone's time with it here. We're trying to learn to play the character, not learn the history of Sonic and fanboi about him.

EDIT: Dark Knight, does it actually show a rainbow, or are you talking about how it arcs?

How it arcs, it arcs like a curve. It happens randomly though, too bad I couldn't record my friends wouldn't let me. >>;

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre right and im sorry. Please Dont hate me! iwas agreeing with you for the most part. see i even started punctuating!

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I mean run-on sentences, no capital letters, no indentation, etc.

Dark Knight, it's done by jumping right as you're about to move forward, but before does the little hop. Seems to have only 1 frame to input it in, maybe 2 or 3 at the most. Either way, pretty hard to time.

 

[McFox]

Did you even read my response? I doubt it, because that's the thing about the internet, you can scroll past something and immediately forget about it.

You're right, that kind of long-winded answer probably wasn't necessary. But when I talk about a very important part of my childhood, I tend to get like that. Sorry if I can't be in "correct form" 100% of the time. I'm an Administrator, yeah, but I'm also just a regular guy who likes video games and who is going to try and defend himself if he gets called out on something.

Anyway, for those of you who actually answered my question, thank you. As SamuraiPanda and others have said, Sonic's recovery-gimping techniques are going to be able to be put to good use, countering all of the "Sonic has no KO moves!" nay-sayers.

Another question while it's on my mind, does Sonic's Dair snap to ledges?

 

[DarkKnight077]

Nope Sonic's Dair doesn't do that. I've tired it and missed. I was like *Faceplam*. And he doesn't auto-sweetspot like the rest of em.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Yeah, Sonic just hates auto-sweetspotting. He thinks it's unfair, or something.

That's not to say he doesn't have ridiculous edge-grab range. He can reach it from more distance than SSBM GaW/Doc could. Pretty crazy.

McFox, if it's in your power, could we please get a sticky for mine and Kuja's threads?

 

[Tyeforce]

Wow, you totally pegged me. You're so smart.

When Brawl was announced and people began immediately talking about Sonic's inclusion (of course), EVERYONE added the Sonic Wind to his moveset, because they thought it would be a good idea? The fact of the matter is that I see Sonic Wind and everyone's want of it being in the game as a symbol of what has destroyed the character in the last ten years for me.

See, here's the thing. Sonic the Hedgehog cannot be done in 3D. At all. Ever.

Not well, at least.

Every 3D "adventure" he's appeared in has been an adventure through bugginess and tedium. There has been nothing appealing about a 3D Sonic adventure game, ever. And I own several of them, because I didn't want to give up on him. Sonic Adventures 1 and 2, and Sonic Heroes.

I completed Sonic Adventure 1. It was not great, but it wasn't a terrible game. The parts where you got to play as Sonic were fun. The rest of the game... was not.

Then came Sonic Adventure 2, which wasn't as good as 1, and also introduced us to Shadow the Hedgehog (Because where could we get brooding mysteriousness from the Sonic series before that? Oh wait, we didn't need it.). But hey, the Sonic and Shadow levels were fun, and if Shadow HAD died at the end of the game, it would be much better. But seeing as how he keeps coming back (I know he was Super Shadow when he fell to Earth, I don't care, it was much better story-wise for him to stay dead), I can fault them for exploiting Shadow's appeal over keeping their artistic integrity.

It should be mentioned at this point that Sonic Adventure 2 is also incredibly buggy. Trying to run across ramps half the time ends up with me falling to the lower platform, instead of actually completing the animation.

I own Sonic Heroes because I received it as a gift, and haven't played it for more than several hours. I was stuck on a pinball part of a level for so long that I have never returned to the game.

I have never played Shadow the Hedgehog, but seeing as how it was universally panned by everyone, ever, I see no need to.

The most recent "reinvention" of the franchise on the PS3/360 was nothing new at all. I never played as Silver, but then, if I wanted to play as Silver the Hedgehog, I'd buy a game CALLED Silver the Hedgehog. I played the demo where you got to play as Sonic, and it handled just as terribly as the Sonic Adventures that came before it.

Sonic used to be a fun series. Dr. Robotnik stole animals and turned them into robots, to what I always assumed was remake the entire world in the image of Robotropolis or whatever. Sonic could release the animals inside by jumping on them or smashing them, and so you set out freeing animals until you could stop Robotnik.

That was the plot of those games. Was there ever need for a cut-scene longer than 3 seconds? No. It works, and the game were fun. If you were running full-speed, you could get through three loops, jump way off a platform and smash into robots, using their momentum to send you into a spring, etc.

The new Sonic games have nothing in common with the old ones. Metroid is a good example of a 2D game that can actually translate into 3D without being crappy. Sonic is an example of wasted potential to the nth degree.

What's the only good Sonic games that have come out in the last 10 years? The Sonic Advance games, and the Sonic Rush games. And oops! Guess what? Those are all 2D games.

~~~

My POINT in all this is that while yes, you are right, the Sonic in Brawl is MODELED after 3D Sonic, and YES, he does use the homing attack which does not appear in 2D Sonic games, he still doesn't remind me of 3D Sonic. The reason I say this is that, if Sega were given the chance to make Sonic's moveset instead of Sakurai, you can bet that it would have included a lot more than just variations of the spindash. Sonic Wind would have made an appearance, and tons of other unnecessary moves, just to try and make the character relevant again.

What Sega doesn't realize is that adding all that stuff IS what makes the character unappealing to fans of Sonic. Sonic's roots are simple, and that's where people want to see him stay. Sure, the Homing Attack comes from Sonic Adventure, but it's still a simple variation on the spindash. It's old-skool in style and flavor, and it hearkens back to a simpler time in Sonic's life where he didn't need all of that unnecessary ****, and just ran around and destroyed robots.

Saying I wouldn't have played as Sonic because of the one move is a bit of a hyperbole, but I would have been disappointed beyond belief.

This IS old-skool Sonic not because of his character model or his moves, but because the overall design of him is simple. Over half of his moves have him turning into a ball and smashing into stuff. That's what the Sonic I know from my childhood would do, not the new Sonic who has destroyed most of the nostalgia I feel for his character.

Am I the only one who actually likes his newer games?! Geeze... Anything before Sonic Adventure was boring to me. It was just...plain. Everything Sonic Adventure and up (excluding Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog '06) is so much better IMO. An actual storyline in a game helps. IDC what most people say. 3D Sonic is full of win.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

IF YOU'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE GAMES, DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! SERIOUSLY, WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

God.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I usually hold b to help me recover, then use up b. together they make a long recovery. Or u can hold b muptiable times for a farther distance

 

[CT Chia]

what is this thread!? seriously...

it has gone so off track from talking about recovery to ranting about sonic games over the past decade. i cant even read all the posts here, as much as i would like to and normally do, because im so dumbfounded by most of the comments.

you cant just write off the sonic games as bad. of course the old games are amazing, but i happen to like the 3d games. sonic adventure? it was cool. sonic adventure 2? even better, and a great game IMO. sonic heroes? not as good as the adventure games, but introduced the interesting 3 player thing and had a really cool ending and brought back classic characters like the chaotix. sonic for 360? while it was buggy as hell, and the worst 3d sonic, there was like, a good part or two in there i guess haha. blaze in 3d is awesome. sonic and the secret rings? its different and fun. and dark spine sonic is kick ***. then theres the mobile ones, and anyone that says sonic rush is a bad game is an idiot, though the advance titles started to get a lil stale. o yea, i forgot to mention shadow the hedgehog. very good presentation of the story with all of the multiple endings and the guns actually helped provide a new fast style of gameplay. i even speed ran the game and hold the record for it (and its recorded)

it all comes down to opinion, something everyone is entitled to. as for what sonic is here in brawl, theres no doubt hes based more on a classic sonic because of the abundance of spinning attacks. a newer sonic would find a way to incorporate the bounce attack, wind, and some sort of fire attack.

as for being back on topic...

as soon as your sent flying use the dair to help stop the momentum. you wont be shot straight down so no problem with that. if your about to die off the side and dont have much time, u have no choice but to double jump right away and hope for the best with ur upB. if you have time, charge up the sideB (u still keep similar momentum while charging, so thats why if ur floating more and more off the stage, you dont wanna die off the side while charging), and let it go when appropriate. only use the sideB if u have ur double jump as its the only way to cancel it in the air. u can go very low with it, jump up, perhaps wall jump if u need more height and upB and be ready to attack someone trying to intercept you.

you can sideB on the stage but if your not careful your left vulnerable, but it can be used in some situations. the neutralB is a lil too unpredictable for my taste in recovery, and u can be hit out of it easily since it well... brings u right to your opponent lol.

 

[Zarez]

Sorry to continue going off topic, but I wanted to make something clear. Although still from a 3D game, the homing attack is actually from Sonic 3D Blast, not the Adventure games.

 

[RayJT9]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Rv4eo1zc4

Unsure if this is of use to you guys, probably just a repost, but just stumbled onto that.

--Ray