quantity is as far as we can go

[SubparSmashBrother]

Everyone knows more characters = more money. Don't expect 50+, but definitely more than 39. Nintendo wouldn't let sakurai have the same roster size as brawl even if he wanted to.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Everyone knows more characters = more money. Don't expect 50+, but definitely more than 39. Nintendo wouldn't let sakurai have the same roster size as brawl even if he wanted to.

Funny that everyone knows something with no basis behind it.

I'm going to out on a limb and say that there have been zero studies indicating your claim.

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

Funny that everyone knows something with no basis behind it.

I'm going to out on a limb and say that there have been zero studies indicating your claim.

You're an idiot, and from the way you worded that, probably a douche too.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

As long as simply reworking all veterans to some stupid new combat system is considered adequate by the development team as suggested by some folks (which it won't be), I'm good.

But yeah, fans don't know how to understand quotes, apparently.

 

[finalark]

Pick 2 and only 2 to improve or expand on:

That's not how you spell balance.

But the image is correct. Honestly I feel like one of the issues with Brawl was that it had too much content. Be honest, how often did you play the demos that were included with the game? How often did you even take a look at stickers after you finished SSE? How about the coin launcher? How many times did you play that?

IMO Smash 4 should cut down on the excessive features and focus on improving game play and balancing characters.

 

[BSP]

Quality > Quantity

I will gladly take a small increase in roster size and balanced gameplay over some blown out adventure mode, stickers, coin launcher, 500000000 trophies, etc.

 

[soviet prince]

lets face it the characters are very important sales point in this game and if there is not at least 45 there will be a backlash from the fans

 

[Kink-Link5]

At least 45? Like you're entitled to something? Please, you're lucky the game is being made. Any backlash is a direct result of unrealistic expectations of grandeur.

 

[Metal Overlord]

^ Agreed

Honestly, just give me Mewtwo and Roy and maybe a couple of new characters and I'll be content. We don't really need a ****load of new characters, there's more to Smash and why I along with others fell in love with this series than just that. I care more about revamping existing characters, anyway

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Quality > Quantity

I will gladly take a small increase in roster size and balanced gameplay over some blown out adventure mode, stickers, coin launcher, 500000000 trophies, etc.

Or increase the moveset. How?
Usually A + left = A+ right and B + left = B + right
but it could become:

A + forward = attack 1
A + backward = attack 2
B + forward = special attack 1
B + backward = special attack 2

 

[Big-Cat]

Or we could have 3D fighter combos. Link could have A > A > 3A for a one-two swing into Lethal Blow combo.

 

[DarkShadow20]

At least 45? Like you're entitled to something? Please, you're lucky the game is being made. Any backlash is a direct result of unrealistic expectations of grandeur.

How is 45 or even 50 characters up from 39 in Brawl "unrealistic expectations of grandeur"? That would be the lowest increase in characters the series has seen.

 

[Kink-Link5]

This sense of entitlement again.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Yeah, let's see how well the game goes over if it has the same amount of characters as Brawl had.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Your point, if you would please? I'm not a fan of vague sarcastic statements with no weight to them.

 

[Big-Cat]

Quality > Quantity

If the returning characters are changrd greatly, then a smaller amount of newcomers is perfectly fine.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Your point, if you would please? I'm not a fan of vague sarcastic statements with no weight to them.

And what was the point of your previous post? I don't feel entitled to 45-50 characters, nobody does. We just expect that number based on the amount of characters that has been added each time.

 

[dengel]

Quality > Quantity

I will gladly take a small increase in roster size and balanced gameplay over some blown out adventure mode, stickers, coin launcher, 500000000 trophies, etc.

Indeed. Seriously, how many people actually care about stickers/coins/trophies? I'd rather they removed that stuff entirely and focused completely on characters/gameplay/balancing. I would like it if they did the same to Adventure Mode, but they might surprise us and make a good one :/

This is my opinion on the number of characters. I'm hoping they'll have somewhere in the low to mid 40s with Lucas, Lucario, Wolf, Toon Link, Sonic, Snake, Ike, and Pokemon Trainer all getting cut. That leaves plenty of space for new characters.

Oh, and if Banjo-Kazooie is somehow in the next SSB game, Idgaf what else they do. I'd buy it in a heartbeat and main BK.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Indeed. Seriously, how many people actually care about stickers/coins/trophies?.

I love the trophies. I love going through the trophy gallery almost as much as I love playing Smash.

Also, don't you DARE take my Toon Link away from me.

You can get rid of the stickers, though. Nobody likes those.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Indeed. Seriously, how many people actually care about stickers/coins/trophies? I'd rather they removed that stuff entirely and focused completely on characters/gameplay/balancing. I would like it if they did the same to Adventure Mode, but they might surprise us and make a good one :/

I agree, but this isn't really about quantity in terms of that extra crap. It's quantity in terms of characters. Had they not wasted so much time on the extra fluff in Brawl like the SSE, stickers, masterpieces, etc we probably would have gotten a few more characters.

 

[dengel]

I love the trophies. I love going through the trophy gallery almost as much as I love playing Smash.

Also, don't you DARE take my Toon Link away from me.

@trophies Well, would you really take the trophies over better quality gameplay?

@toon link You know it's gonna happen, don't even deny it.

 

[Ove]

I think trophies are nice. It's a good way to showcase the eminent history of Nintendo in an interesting way.

@ Toon Link: we don't need two Links.

 

[Kink-Link5]

And what was the point of your previous post? I don't feel entitled to 45-50 characters, nobody does. We just expect that number based on the amount of characters that has been added each time.

The point is that expecting anything means setting expectations for something almost no one in the world knows hardly anything about. It also means that you're setting yourself up for disappointment and backlash if and when things don't go as picture-perfect as you pretend they they are with basis on the past rather than, say, actually known statements about the future of something such as this. Expecting something positive from the black unknown is very much feeling you have to right to something positive from the black unknown. Expect nothing, and these falsified polyannaistic views of the future you have made for yourself won't be able to disappoint you.

Expecting something is what gave us Brawl.

 

[DarkShadow20]

You mean statements like the one in the OP which has been heavily misinterpreted to meaning that SSB4 will not have more characters than Brawl? Sakurai would have to be a complete idiot to do that.

And *gasp* some people actually liked Brawl!

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

Hey Darkshadow, just stop arguing with the guy. Everyone knows you're in the right here, this guy's just arrogant. Don't feel like you have to prove something to him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No one has to prove anything.

Being right or disappointed vs Being right or surprised seems like an obvious choice to me.

 

[kisamefishfries]

It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.

Ok so according to Sakurai we have reached the limit of characters that is doable... so that means probably a few new characters, in replacement of some characters that were canned. But if we can just bring over data like people keep saying we can I don't see roster expansion being a problem, just like melee to brawl, from brawl to U all characters will be 90%+ identical. (I mean few changes) so then where is all this extra time going to go? OH thats where. This scares me, I don't want new things like what I'm expecting. This statement makes me think a ton of stupid stuff like a primary focus on Asymmetrical gaming or motion controls. The only reason this scares me is the SSE. I just played this not 30 minutes ago. It is the most un-enjoyable gaming experience of any Nintendo game I played. It was an attempt to make a cool story behind the game. But all it did was waste a bunch of time. I could rant about SSE but its not like that, I see Sakurai thinking that the SSE waas a new direction to take the series. I will be mortified if anything like that is in the next game. Im 100% positive it took a TON of development time and nobody liked it.
Conclusions
The roster will not expand, just alter.
A ton of extra time will be had on something no one knows about instead of expanding the roster.
Sakurai wants to take the series in a "new direction"

 

[Ove]

@Kink-Link5: there is nothing wrong being optimistic. Yes, there is a slight possibility that an optimistic person will be disappointed, but on the other hand that doesn't mean you should be pessimistic and lower the bar of expectations just so you will be pleased with whatever the outcome will result in.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I think trophies are nice. It's a good way to showcase the eminent history of Nintendo in an interesting way.

@ Toon Link: we don't need two Links.

Why don't we? They both bring something unique to the table, and they both represent two completely different styles of games.

Again, I'm sick of this knee-jerk hatred clones get in the Smash community. Street Fighter 4 AE has 5(Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Oni) characters with minimal variations in their movesets out of a roster smalller than Brawls, and nobody throws a hissy fit over it. Have anyone calling for Toonie to be dropped ever actually played him or Young Link? Because it seems to me like you haven't.

Edit: Another rant. Everyone is so goddamn selfish when they talk about the roster. "There's a character I don't know/like/care about? Cut them so that there can be room for characters I want!" Seriously, I don't give a damn about half the roster, but at least I have the decency to respect the people who do like characters that I don't particularly care about.

 

[Kink-Link5]

@Kink-Link5: there is nothing wrong being optimistic. Yes, there is a slight possibility that an optimistic person will be disappointed, but on the other hand that doesn't mean you should be pessimistic and lower the bar of expectations just so you will be pleased with whatever the outcome will result in.

I'm the most optimistic person in the world. Optimism is looking at what you have, and enjoying, indulging in, and appreciating it. Optimism is a reflection of that which exists, pollyannaism is expecting bright perfection from the future, and is a very unhealthy way to live as it can often lead to depression much more easily than approaching the future cautiously can.

Pessimism is like, not liking what you get/have. Cynicism is expecting nothing but despair for the future, and is the "safe route," so to speak, as a mechanism to avoid disappointment and the "post-hype drain."

You have a very strange perception of me if you think anything I've said is pessimistic, rather than optimistically cynical.


*These probably aren't the real definitions of these terms, but for conversational purposes, these will be the terms I'll be using in this regard for the duration of this conversation.

 

[dengel]

One does not simply choose to expect less in order to not be disappointed.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oh .

 

[kisamefishfries]

One does not simply choose to expect less in order to not be disappointed.

Why not? No point in having your hopes up just to be disappointed. about 75% of the things people want as additions from brawl/melee won't be added so why bother expecting them? Assume a 35 character roster with a physics engine half way between melee and brawl. Around 35-40 stages so that each franchise can have 1, bigger franchises get a few more and we can bring back some old ones for nostalgia. that is my expectations. any improvement over that is icing on the cake.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I actually have my expectations set to "slightly worse than Brawl," which is still giving a lot of assumption for the game since it could be a **** ton worse than Brawl; Human condition only has so much of a threshold for expectations though.

It's also worth noting that expectations and standards are very different and should be held differently.

 

[Ove]

Why don't we? They both bring something unique to the table, and they both represent two completely different styles of games.

Again, I'm sick of this knee-jerk hatred clones get in the Smash community. Street Fighter 4 AE has 5(Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Oni) characters with minimal variations in their movesets out of a roster smalller than Brawls, and nobody throws a hissy fit over it. Have anyone calling for Toonie to be dropped ever actually played him or Young Link? Because it seems to me like you haven't.

Edit: Another rant. Everyone is so goddamn selfish when they talk about the roster. "There's a character I don't know/like/care about? Cut them so that there can be room for characters I want!" Seriously, I don't give a damn about half the roster, but at least I have the decency to respect the people who do like characters that I don't particularly care about.

Obviously, you haven't played SSF4:AE. The difference between named characters are huge, they all have a very unique playstyle where playing Ryu, for instance, is all about zoning whereas a good Akuma player is heavily depended on good mix-ups and footsies.

I am not saying that we should remove Toon Link. I am just saying that we don't need Toon Link, we already have one Link. If Toon Link is taking a spot from a possible alternative that represents a more diverse side of the Nintendo library, then I guess I would like to have him removed. But if that's not the case, if Toon Link doesn't take someone else's place, then I more than ever want him in.

@ Kiki: Please note what you are saying. You said that one shouldn't expect something positive from the black unknown. However, afterwards, you say that one shouldn't expect perfection from the future. To me, you have a negative attitude to the simplicity of optimism, which you would like to call pollyannaism and is a much more extreme form of optimism.

You are a pessimistic person in such way that you don't let people have the reasonable opinion of including a couple of more characters. Instead, you spoil the creative atmosphere these people contribute with when they discuss new possibillities in the next smash by stating the fact that they might be disappointed if their wishes don't come true in a very unpleasant and negative way.

 

[dengel]

Why not? No point in having your hopes up just to be disappointed. about 75% of the things people want as additions from brawl/melee won't be added so why bother expecting them? Assume a 35 character roster with a physics engine half way between melee and brawl. Around 35-40 stages so that each franchise can have 1, bigger franchises get a few more and we can bring back some old ones for nostalgia. that is my expectations. any improvement over that is icing on the cake.

What you want =/= what you expect
I may want Banjo-Kazooie in the next Smash Bros, but I definitely don't expect him.
That being said, you can't simply choose what you expect. What you expect is what you logically deduce will happen. Using logic, it makes Banjo-Kazooie's appearance in the next Smash Bros very unlikely, so I don't expect him. Someone telling me to expect less, so that I don't get disappointed in the future, does not change my real expectations. I can't change my real expectations without some sort of reasoning or new evidence.

Pretending to have lower expectations is just lying to yourself. I may say that I expect only 35 characters, but deep down I really expect somewhere in the low-mid 40s. Then, if the game comes out with only 35 characters, I'll still be disappointed, even if I pretend to expect less like what you're saying I should do.

 

[Big-Cat]

Obviously, you haven't played SSF4:AE. The difference between named characters are huge, they all have a very unique playstyle where playing Ryu, for instance, is all about zoning whereas a good Akuma player is heavily depended on good mix-ups and footsies.

It helps that Ryu, Ken, and Akuma have had nearly 20 years of independent development following their debuts.

The main reason why Smash fans are so knee-jerk when it comes to clones is because there is typically material for those characters to choose from for moves or even enough room to give the characters alternate takes on another's attacks. Like, take Fox's Fox Fire and turn it into a Flash Kick variation for Falco.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Obviously, you haven't played SSF4:AE. The difference between named characters are huge, they all have a very unique playstyle where playing Ryu, for instance, is all about zoning whereas a good Akuma player is heavily depended on good mix-ups and footsies.

I have, actually, but I'm not very good at it. Maybe "minor variations" wasn't the best choice of words, but my point still stands. SF4AE has 5 similar(but not identical) characters that each have been given unique playstyles by tweaking the properties of their moves. The same is true of most of the clones in Smash: Toon Link is unique from Link, Falco (especially in Brawl) is unique from Fox, etc.

Also: Something people point out when talking about clones is that creators use them so they can recycle animation data. This is true for some characters, but not for others. Ganondorf's moves, while similar to Falcon's, received completely different animations on a lot of his moves in Brawl. Same deal with Luigi, as well as Toonie and Falco to an extent.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It helps that Ryu, Ken, and Akuma have had nearly 20 years of independent development following their debuts.

The main reason why Smash fans are so knee-jerk when it comes to clones is because there is typically material for those characters to choose from for moves or even enough room to give the characters alternate takes on another's attacks. Like, take Fox's Fox Fire and turn it into a Flash Kick variation for Falco.

That and most smashers look at the game on a more general (casual) level.

Such a lens gives us Ryu, Ken, Sean, Sakura, Akuma, Oni, Dan, Gouken, and Gouki as "clones."

There are some people that consider moves like Dolphin Slash a "clone move" of Mario's simply because it is a diagonal rising strike.


It also doesn't help that due to the 6-button layout of Street fighter, very few normals end up being "iconic," causing the differences in normal moves to be insignificant on an aesthetic level.

 

[El Duderino]

Obviously, you haven't played SSF4:AE. The difference between named characters are huge, they all have a very unique playstyle... I am not saying that we should remove Toon Link. I am just saying that we don't need Toon Link, we already have one Link.

I see the problem here, you are considering the stale Toon Link, not the fresh one.