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Punishing with Peach's shoulder pad thingy

RyokoYaksa

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I thought it important to discuss this rare, but important phenomena. The critical hit of usmash.



The best way I can describe the uber spot of Peach's usmash is that it's a small sphere located roughly at Peach's upraised shoulder. It hits for 19% uncharged and is just shy of the KO power of Fox's usmash, but this attack sends foes straight up instead of slightly off-center. Either way it's Peach most powerful KO move by far aside from bombs and death turnips.

The screwy thing with this hitbox is that, because the volume it takes up is so much less than that the other 3 hitboxes, it takes critical positioning to get it off without the uppermost hitbox taking priority over it. Even if your target happens to be in both the 15% hitbox and the 19% hitbox, the 15% hit will take precedence over the 19%. This adds to the critical spacing needed to connect with this move. In a real match, usmash isn't something that you can spam, so it takes very precise setups to go about hitting with this otherwise godly power hit. Since this is essentially the only uber-powerful move Peach has, we might as well share our knowledge on how to hit with it when possible.

Shield breaks: Virtually any character can be sweetspotted with usmash on a shield break if you time it right. The timing and positioning of Peach varies due to constantly moving body of your shield broken opponent, and often involves very specific timing (practice, practice). Kirby, Pikachu (but not Pichu), and Jigglypuff cannot be hit from a shield broken state, they are too short. Being directly below them on a sloped surface is the only way to connect with it.

How do you shield break? Skillful use of Mr. Saturn, or death turnips. Hey, it's more than what other people get, and if you do break their shield, you get a chance to really punish a la Fox.

Team Play: When your teammate has caught someone in a grab, it's also easy to shoulderpad the grabbed enemy. Position yourself so that the enemy is in between you and your teammate, and usmash. More often than not you'll get a shoulderpad out of it. Again, practice and see. Fox and Peach are quite deadly this way, both being capable of usmash killing when either one gets a grab.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbAOsQo4aKY <-example here

*Several dash attacks can also be punished by usmash when shielded. They're already running into you so half the setup is done. Prime examples of who can fall to this are Jigglypuff, Peach, Zelda, Samus, and more that I can't confirm at the moment. Be aware that you need at least 13 frames of advantage for this to work, assuming your timing is perfect.

Many characters can also be hit if you chase their rolls perfectly. Any type of roll can be punished. A tech roll, ledge roll, etc. This works when they manage to roll into you, but not past you. More oten than not they'll wind up into the shoulderpad.

If your opponent DIs your dthrow incorrectly (towards you instead of away) and you usmash in response, the sweet spot is capable of connecting. Like against Roy, Ganon, Sheik or others with similar fall speeds. They need about 100ish damage racked up first.

From dtilts with no DI
The 3 fast fallers fall so quickly that, after being dtilted at certain damage levels, they'll fall right into the usmash sweetspot without being able to escape. You can charge it up, and if you release it at the right time, it will sweet spot and KILL. However, they need to not DI the dtilt.

Fox: starting at 70 and up to 85 (roughly), connecting with a dtilt that isn't DI'd will pop Fox up into the air and fall, and leave him stunned enough so that he falls right into the usmash sweet spot (you may have to dash over a bit first). These two moves wind up doing about 32-34 damage, and gets vertical KOs below 110%.
Falco: add about 3 damage to Fox's figures.
Falcon: Works from a little under 80 to slightly 90, I can best gather.

There are several other numbers on characters where you can dtilt-usmash, but I'm too lazy to figure them out. They're all low figures, so they won't lead to kills.

Jiggs: both her dash attack and her Pound leave her vulnerable to usmash when you shield it. dash attack almost assuredly leaves the puff getting sweetspotted, while the Pound is dependent on her position.
If Jigglypuff misses a Rest, you cannot normally punish her with a shoulder pad. However, if she is on a significant slope (the ones on DK64 are enough), you can get under her and hit with it when you turn your back. Push her a little to the slope if you have to.

Ganondorf: Works when Ganondorf misses his ground Down+B and you're inside him.

Sheik: You can punish her Vanish lag with this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDcBFA5beMI
However, it is much harder than the vid makes it appear.
1. You must be right next to her, with back-turned for the sweetspot to hit.
2. The usmash must connect 25-29 frames after Sheik lands. Too soon and it won't sweetspot. Too late, and Sheik can act.
3. Pivoting an usmash is not easy on the fly.

I'm not quite done, but help me out here, guys.
 

Quetzalcoatl

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for fox and falco, you can up smash them out of their fwd b and up b and if you space it nicely, you can get the sweet spot, remember that vid ryoko, of you up smashing that fox on 69% and it star KO'd him? XD
 

TiRune

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
for fox and falco, you can up smash them out of their fwd b and up b and if you space it nicely, you can get the sweet spot, remember that vid ryoko, of you up smashing that fox on 69% and it star KO'd him? XD
you know, when I first started playing peach, that was THE move I used to stop fox and falco from coming back.
I have to thank Ztevie_boy (very old peach guru who retired) for learning me to use the u-smash :p. After reading this topic I should start trying to use it more often again, I'm interested in if I can learn myself to sweetspot it ;). nyways, I'll try on a pr0 marth for sure XD

oh btw, just got my tv-card to work. expect some vids during christmas (big 40-hour ssbm marathon then)
 

Quetzalcoatl

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I've found something quite important about hitting with the up smash.
Almost every character can be hit while standing with an up smash if peach has her back to the front of the opponent. It seems that when in this position, the sweet spot will hit as opposed to trying to up smash by going face to face, where you will get the small knockback hit on most characters. You can even sweet spot up smash jigglypuff in this manner, but for some reason (may have to do with slight hitbox rearrangement) you cannot up smash jigglypuff while she is resting.

I thought it was important to really emphasise practicing this and getting used to how to hit with it and what characters have to be hit in vertain ways (eg. you can sweet spot up smash yoshi face to face because of how his nose sticks out (my theory anyway)).
This is because it is peach's most powerful KO move and I've found that when I shield crack the opponent, down smash is just going to be DI'd upwards and doesn't have nearly the same KO power. Its also good to know how you should go about punishing slow attacks, eg if link misses the hookshot, line up the up smash in the proper way (your back to his face) and REALLY punish him with a sweet spot up smash rather than a down smash that is just gonna get DI'd anyway.

I've been trying to come up with a way to get a missed rest jigglypuff into a sweet spotted up smash but no luck so far other than starting to charge the up smash near the end of the rest and releasing it when jigglypuff is back to the neutral standing pose, the problem is that the opponent will probably react in time which could lead to a complete waste of opportunity altogether. The best thing I have in this instance is to pull a turnip jump over jpuff's head, throw it up, then do a floating dair, and follow with uair, the turnip will hit somewhere in between the attacks and just adds to the damage.
 

Mikey Lenetia

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I find there is also a mini-punisher you can do to fastfallers if they get hit with a down smash at low percents. They'll sometimes get hit twice, then they will flop on the ground. If they don't tech it, just up smash, and you'll automatically get a sweetspoted up smash and they'll already be at around 30% - 40%, and from there I think it is possible to follow with other moves like up airs or a neutral air.
 

tsetse

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Originally posted by RyokoYaksa


Basic stuff: Virtually any character can be sweetspotted with usmash on a shield break if you time it right. The timing varies due to constantly changing hitboxes. Basically the one character I remember that can't be punished this way are the small guys (Jiggs, Pika, Pichu, maybe GW)
*Many dash attacks can also be punished by usmash when shielded. Prime examples of who can fall to this are Jigglypuff, Peach, Zelda, and more that I can't confirm at the moment.


So is a Shield Break when someone stops shielding or something else? What is it?
 

Yuna

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Shield break: When you shield until your shield is broken, there is a sound effect, an explosive special effect and you go flying up a little and then fall to the ground and are immobile for quite some time (I think it's the same animation as when you are "Sung").
 

Mikey Lenetia

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It is kinda the same thing, but while shieldbroken, you're standing and rocking back and forth. When you are Sung, the character falls down so they're laying and/or on their knees.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Wait, that post has been up for one and a half months and you wait until the immediate DAY RIGHT AFTER I CHANGE HOSTS to view it? You picky *******.

Oh, and the link is fixed. Of course, you could have just used my website link next to the PM button in every post I make, as well.
 

flagitious

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OMG JIGGS PWN3D

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
I've been trying to come up with a way to get a missed rest jigglypuff into a sweet spotted up smash but no luck so far other than starting to charge the up smash near the end of the rest and releasing it when jigglypuff is back to the neutral standing pose, the problem is that the opponent will probably react in time which could lead to a complete waste of opportunity altogether. The best thing I have in this instance is to pull a turnip jump over jpuff's head, throw it up, then do a floating dair, and follow with uair, the turnip will hit somewhere in between the attacks and just adds to the damage.
Your idea gave me an idea :) Grab a turnip, stand next to the resting jiggly throw it up (weak throw if you don't have much time). Go to the other side of jiggs and start charging an up smash. The turnip comes down and knocks her right into the sweet spot if you have correct timing and positioning.

This makes me so happy because I too wanted a good way to punish jiggs when she missed rest. It made me mad that such a powerful wiffed attack couldn't really be punished nearly as bad as other characters could punish it. This combo will kill jiggs from insanely low percentages.

Anyways sorry to not have responded sooner on such an interesting topic as this. I'll try to look for some other isntances where you can sweet spot upsmash. This move really goes to show how doing your homework can pay off in a battle.

Also someone mentioned punishing link's missed grab. I didn't have much success getting this sweet spotted unless I was behind him facing away. Even if it works it just doesn't seem to kill him very well do to his weight or fast falling speed or whatever. I'll try that out more later too.

EDIT::::::
Ok when I said insanely low percentages, I got it to work starting at 30% on pokemon stadium with a regular turnip. The bad news.... the turnip can just be crouch canceled, but the good news if you think jiggs is going to crouch cancel you can downsmash. There might be better options ill look into it but must sleep now.
 

Quetzalcoatl

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Ah! so simple, I can't believe that didn't occur to me, i though about using the turnip to push jiggs into an up smash but i never tried it for some reason, great discovery.
 

stilettotrap

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I've gotten into a habit of punishing laggier attacks by running through the opponent and usmashing. Most of the time, the sweetspot connects... If not, it's very rare to get the weakspot over the regular usmash when you're that close to the opponent.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Regardless of how close you might be, a part of your opponent must still be overlapped the small sphere in Peach's... shoulder pad for the critical hit to connect. If you know the attack hitbox and look closely at your opponent's vulnerable hitbox, understand how to hit with it will be much easer.

For example... you shield break Samus. While she's rocking back and forth from shield break, if she leans into you and you usmash (with your back to her), you will not get the critical. However, when Samus rocks back, you will get it(!). Why is this? Easy... her arm cannon and only that swings right into the shoulder pad for a critical.

And I will say now that running straight into the opponent and usmashing in the middle of their dodge (if they use it) is cool.
 

flagitious

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You can sweet spot upsmash on marths forward smash from the shield if you block it from right next to him facing other direction.
 

RyokoYaksa

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If Jigglypuff misses a rest and is on a significant slope (DK64 is enough). Get right next to her, turn your back, and charge that usmash. Fox, eat your heart out.
 

Peaches

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SOunds like fun in the right circumstances. Also sounds way to hard to setup.
 

RyokoYaksa

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It's actually fairly easy to do when the opportunity presents itself. Which is once in a blue moon, but not necessarily difficult.

Also, when your teammate grabs an opponent, just get somewhat inside the grabbed person and usmash for an automatic shoulder pad. Just watch out for your teammate's pummel attack when doing this. One reason why Peach/Fox is so deadly in teams is that they can BOTH sweetspot their usmashes easily this way.
 

exarch

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You can also punish characters getting up from the ledge by doing this. Obviously you have to guess right, but typically, the character will stand up long enough for you to uber sweet spot, without them being able to shield. I haven't done it on many people, but i know it works vs ice climbers at least.

Sidenote: Don't be afraid to shield upsmash ledge hoppy characters. I've only done it to Luigi, and Luigi no like. I should take my own advice and do it to more characters... aka Sheik.
 

Drumma_Boi

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I have also noticed the priority of the U-smash cuts right through many charecters u-b and other recovery moves. If it hits the small hits it bounes them out alittle making way for u to rush in while floating to b-air or n-air. If the weak box hits then o well guess u get a sweet spotted one (**** the luck). This is best set up for me by pulling a turnip during an edge guard and throwing it up (hard or weak depending on there returning speed). This has a chance of stopping there recovering over ure head. Then you can edge hog to force them on the level. Then edge hop and slide onto the stage and u-smash. If that is unclear at all please correct me. I love turnip edge guard set ups if u couldnt tell.
 

Wave⁂

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exarch said:
You can also punish characters getting up from the ledge by doing this. Obviously you have to guess right, but typically, the character will stand up long enough for you to uber sweet spot, without them being able to shield. I haven't done it on many people, but i know it works vs ice climbers at least.
i agree, but that sounds a bit TOO hard. dsmash would be easier.
 

icy_icicle

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Pretty interesting. I have to check this out. However, when you face away from your opponent and USmash, do you have to be touching them with your back? That seems a little difficult to set up.
 

NDigighost

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well my friend and i play doubles together, most of the time he plays luigi and i play peach. no it was obvious that on 2v1 when im grabbing he should do a fire punch (sweetspot up-b). but we were thinking what do do when hes grabbing. with big charas i used ryoko's idea.

with characters that are too small to be sweetspotted from inside the grab (mario, space animals, ice climber, kirby, pika, pichu, jiggs etc.) you can have your partner grab him, and then stand with your back to your partner and wait for the mash out, i found that there are 2 animations. one is where they slide out of the grab, in that case, you should turn around and grab. the 2nd is that you jump out of the grab, now in that case, the jump goes straight to the sweetspot.

p.s. this is all theory atm, not sure if it works.
 

GigaMan

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you have to swett spot up smash i didnt know so i cant help u sorry
 

RyokoYaksa

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This thread has also been updated with more accurate descriptions.

And yes, this is an extremely rare occurence that you may only experience once every 100 matches or even less. However, it is still worth learning due to this sweetspot's power being so far ahead of anything else in Peach's normal repertoire.
 

icy_icicle

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Just like to add, that indeed, Jiggs can be sweet spotted on a flat surface. All you have to do is stand next to him, so that you are tangent with his side, throw a turnip up, WD straight through him to the other side, start charging, and release right when the turnip hits him. It works, I can confirm it as I've done it multiple times now.

I didn't come up with it, Quetzcotl did, just thought I should mention it, to help punish the rest spammers.
 

Powda193

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can't Jiggs CC the turnip?
yes, if u are expecting them to do that then dsmash instead (this was all mentioned in previous posts)

really nice discovery ryoko... i almost NEVER usmash with peach... im gonna try and work it into my game more.
 

Cort

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Very good Peach topic, from Ryoko as usual.

I'd like to see these setups on video sometime, as it's slightly hard to picture in my mind, and I don't have my gamecube with me =P
 

icy_icicle

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It's actually not that interesting to look at. I can't really describe it, except that it SOUNDS more powerful than a regular upsmash, and they fly higher.
 

darkatma

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Hey i finally read your thead

you have a typo/error thingy on the shield break section :p
When you say jigglypuff can't be punished from shield break, that's correct, but the reason you give is that jiggly, like kirby and pika, is too short to be punished.

Jiggly can't be punished from shield break because jiggly automatically dies :p


Okay, yay for reviving a 3 year + old thread
 

Cort

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This thread is ridiculously useful.

I've been implementing usmash into my game, it's quite useful.
 
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