Proposed Ruleset for Smash 4 Tournaments

[Overswarm]

I'm not going to go and claim that the data OS presenting is wrong or right, or that he's correctly or incorrectly using it or communicating it to present his case. I haven't even looked at it. But I think if anyone is going to bother, they should do so properly. Having some data to present is not always better than no data at all.

And thus you have no voice. That's the long and short of it. No data, no voice. I get that data can be used incorrectly; that's why the source data should always be available (Dazwa's thread).

When we were doing the Meta Knight stuff I actually had a guy who did this for a living help me with it. I'd have been the first guy to say "MK is fine" if I found the slightest evidence for it, trust me on that one. I like Brawl a lot. I just didn't like MK and the vastly dwindling stagelist that lowered the character coutn to "MK and flat/plat characters that do better against MK".

 

[Ulevo]

And thus you have no voice. That's the long and short of it. No data, no voice. I get that data can be used incorrectly; that's why the source data should always be available (Dazwa's thread).

When we were doing the Meta Knight stuff I actually had a guy who did this for a living help me with it. I'd have been the first guy to say "MK is fine" if I found the slightest evidence for it, trust me on that one. I like Brawl a lot. I just didn't like MK and the vastly dwindling stagelist that lowered the character coutn to "MK and flat/plat characters that do better against MK".

I do not need data to poke holes through a flimsy argument, OS. And that's all data is used for, to justify and solidify an argument. Just because I'm not willing to read through your Mt. Everest posts (particularly because I know it doesn't matter, you're unlikely to properly convince the people who need to be convinced when Smash Wii U launches) doesn't mean I do not see inconsistencies based on logic and experience. But that's fine.

 

[Overswarm]

I do not need data to poke holes through a flimsy argument, OS.

You do when the other side's "flimsy argument" is supported by data.

 

[HugS™]

Lol those tournaments were chosen before the fact, not because of the fact. If you want to chalk the results of my 2 judgmental selections off to cherry picking, as in, and the largest tournament of all time and the largest tournament to happen most recently, I guess that's fine. But you're blowing off my haphazard selection too.

Unfortunately I can't gather large amounts of recent data. Maybe you have some?

 

[BSP]

It's mainly the difference of
Pictochat's randomness has a far bigger effect on the game than Yoshi's Island. (subjective line that has to be drawn somewhere)
Excluding Ness, who does get randomly gimped by the stage (by shy guys or the ghost), the ghost generally only saves you from death, by putting you in an easily abusable position, which is even worse when you consider the characters who are easy to gimp who'd need the ghost in the first place.

And there's the whole thing of, the ghost's don't force you to commit to an option (leading to your opponent getting a free punish), while hazards often do (the pictochat ones included, the safe zone isn't an argument against that).
.

You're correct in the "too much interference" line has to be drawn somewhere, but for YI:B, death at 30% from a gimp vs. offstage with your double jump plus ~11% is a pretty big deal in my book. Pictochat is worse, but that's pretty bad too.

I agree with your sentiments on Halberd and random hazards in general. The hazard appearing at time X and not time Y is important when a match is going on.

"Safe Zone" on pictochat

 

[LiteralGrill]

As a minor aside, anyone who thinks implementation would be an issue should just put their minds at ease. Our community has no shortage of people well capable of designing the data storage and output systems (I can think of one person very quickly who would jump at this chance), and a culture of gathering and reporting data would probably not be hard to establish given that any TO who declined to participate just disenfranchised his community which is something that no good TO would want to do.

Oh you! Embarrass

Well... Hopefully I was the one being referenced anyways.

Because I ALREADY AM DOING THIS!!! Seriously, ANY TO who isn't lazy will be able to enter data from events into out system so we will all easily be able to look at results. PLEASE if anyone comes across this post who wants input on how the system will work just PM me. I need as many ideas as I can get to make this an epic success. Data from EVERY tournament we have would be an amazing thing for Smash, I've already dived head first into it, come join me! :D

I do not need data to poke holes through a flimsy argument, OS. And that's all data is used for, to justify and solidify an argument. Just because I'm not willing to read through your Mt. Everest posts (particularly because I know it doesn't matter, you're unlikely to properly convince the people who need to be convinced when Smash Wii U launches) doesn't mean I do not see inconsistencies based on logic and experience. But that's fine.

EVERYONE forgets the 3DS version...

You know, potential TOs for THAT game may be in here too right...? (Cough Cough )

 

[Overswarm]

Lol those tournaments were chosen before the fact, not because of the fact. If you want to chalk the results of my 2 judgmental selections off to cherry picking, as in, and the largest tournament of all time and the largest tournament to happen most recently, I guess that's fine. But you're blowing off my haphazard selection too.

Unfortunately I can't gather large amounts of recent data. Maybe you have some?

That's not how data works! Two tournaments of any caliber aren't indicative of national trends. Choosing one tournament at random is ALSO bad. That's not how you use data to come to conclusions. Don't believe me? Choose the hottest day on the calendar, the hottest day in the past month, and then some random day and use it as a barometer for temperature. It doesn't work because you don't have enough data points are are using them incorrectly.

You CAN gather large amounts of data. You choose not to.

 

[Ulevo]

You CAN gather large amounts of data. You choose not to.

To be fair, your position is trying to change the status quo, so it makes sense that you've made the effort to collect such data. There wasn't necessarily an impending need for people to prove what was already a common consensus that was considered fairly straightforward.

Assuming an argument can be made that is reasonably sound and it has properly interoperable data that helps to prove it without being misrepresented, I'm sure there would be a need to collect that information outside of just satisfying curiosity and people would feel the need to do so. Having that expectation of anyone right now isn't reasonable because there has never been a need for it.

Collecting information from the start of Smash Wii U/3DS is something that I think would be beneficial for many reasons, including ones outside of this topic. I suggest that would be a good place to begin.

 

[Ghostbone]

That's not how data works! Two tournaments of any caliber aren't indicative of national trends. Choosing one tournament at random is ALSO bad. That's not how you use data to come to conclusions. Don't believe me? Choose the hottest day on the calendar, the hottest day in the past month, and then some random day and use it as a barometer for temperature. It doesn't work because you don't have enough data points are are using them incorrectly.

You CAN gather large amounts of data. You choose not to.

You're still trying to use data (that people have poked holes in multiple times) from predominantly mid level play at a 2010 tournament series to support your argument, I don't see what grounds you have to stand on here.

You're correct in the "too much interference" line has to be drawn somewhere, but for YI:B, death at 30% from a gimp vs. offstage with your double jump plus ~11% is a pretty big deal in my book. Pictochat is worse, but that's pretty bad too.

Yea Yoshi's Island can be pretty dumb.
But usually the dumb stuff happens far less often than on other random stages, and the dumb stuff doesn't fall under my criteria for banning most dumb stages (forcing one player to commit to an option that the other player can then punish)
I feel a lot of players, whether they'd word it that way or not, dislike most stages for the same reason (as it feels like you're fighting against the stage rather than your opponent when the stage is forcing you to commit to an option, which is a legitimate observation)

 

[LiteralGrill]

So... If we collect data from the VERY beginning of both Smash 4 games, would people use it as a basis for decisions? This is my HUGE project here. We'd have in depth data from the beginning of time to work with. Unbiased cold hard numbers to look at from every tournament hosted.

I could even go so far as to allow the database to collect info from all tournaments we have NOW for the older games, though I know by this point it wont be AS useful.

If top TOs and thee Back Rooms will use this information, I'll make sure this is all done. Heck, I'll do it by Apex and we can collect every scrap of data there, sound good? We can see what this will look like for the future. Just get all you TOs and top level players here, and tell me what would make the system most convenient for you, if I have to have TOs mail me all the match slips from tournaments to enter in myself by hand, my body is ready. Just tell us what you want and we'll do it.

 

[Ulevo]

So... If we collect data from the VERY beginning of both Smash 4 games, would people use it as a basis for decisions? This is my HUGE project here. We'd have in depth data from the beginning of time to work with. Unbiased cold hard numbers to look at from every tournament hosted.

I could even go so far as to allow the database to collect info from all tournaments we have NOW for the older games, though I know by this point it wont be AS useful.

If top TOs and thee Back Rooms will use this information, I'll make sure this is all done. Heck, I'll do it by Apex and we can collect every scrap of data there, sound good? We can see what this will look like for the future. Just get all you TOs and top level players here, and tell me what would make the system most convenient for you, if I have to have TOs mail me all the match slips from tournaments to enter in myself by hand, my body is ready. Just tell us what you want and we'll do it.

I don't think it makes much sense to use data from previous games in the series because much of the data would be incomplete, spread out, and would postulate inconclusive results. If things like frame data on ledges led to planking problems in Brawl and those are fixed in Smash Wii U, data on that won't really be useful, as an example. Even for stage parameters or any item functions, both with the items themselves and with how they interact with the environment, can alter results. i.e. Final Destination in Melee is actually quite different from Brawls Final Destination, and could be as such in SWU. And items and their effects in a hitstun prominent environment versus one where hitstun is canceable will produce different results.

I think a database should be used to collect information for both Smash Wii U and Smash 3DS tournaments from the start and have it exist as a gradual, continuous process. This would certainly help shed the light on specific subjects that need to be addressed when the time comes, such as whether or not to ban a character should we ever need to, or if a specific character(s) dominate one counterpick too much for it to be legal.

EDIT: I know Hugs was asking for specific recent data, this was kind of a side note.

 

[HugS™]

I was asking if you could gather some recent data for me. Can you?

 

[[Corn]]

I always love reading OS posts.

I always love scrolling past them. :3

 

[Ghostbone]

So... If we collect data from the VERY beginning of both Smash 4 games, would people use it as a basis for decisions? This is my HUGE project here. We'd have in depth data from the beginning of time to work with. Unbiased cold hard numbers to look at from every tournament hosted.

If we could get every tournament of Smash4 to collect the data MLG did (or at least similar data), that would indeed be fantastic.
At least every major should try for it.

 

[Ulevo]

If we could get every tournament of Smash4 to collect the data MLG did (or at least similar data), that would indeed be fantastic.
At least every major should try for it.

I'm glad you feel that way. Talk about it here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-iv-data-collection-project-discussion.339991/

 

[Overswarm]

I was asking if you could gather some recent data for me. Can you?

I could, but you'd have to pay me. Unfortunately without starting off right you can't collect much data. All I could feasibly gather for Melee tournaments recently would be character usage, what characters lost to what and how often, potentially player specific values, etc.

People need to collect data outside of what is shown in a tournament result and a bracket to get anything meaningful. It's one of the more useless things when trying to look at policy. Great for global trends like character usage and the like, but not so great for the "why" behind stuff.

 

[Ulevo]

I could, but you'd have to pay me. Unfortunately without starting off right you can't collect much data. All I could feasibly gather for Melee tournaments recently would be character usage, what characters lost to what and how often, potentially player specific values, etc.

People need to collect data outside of what is shown in a tournament result and a bracket to get anything meaningful. It's one of the more useless things when trying to look at policy. Great for global trends like character usage and the like, but not so great for the "why" behind stuff.

If you feel that way, then perhaps you should pitch some of the ideas you have for proper data collection that should be implemented for Smash IV in the thread I linked so that hopefully we have this information in our future?

 

[KishPrime]

Threads like this just make me sad. I'll never understand why people want to cut out 75% of an amazing game's core mechanics before they even play the game, so I won't bother arguing this time. One needs only to check out some of the FCD videos from last year to see amazing play and matches on Brinstar/Mute City.


Man up.

 

[nat pagle]

Threads like this just make me sad. I'll never understand why people want to cut out 75% of an amazing game's core mechanics before they even play the game, so I won't bother arguing this time. One needs only to check out some of the FCD videos from last year to see amazing play and matches on Brinstar/Mute City.


Man up.

Because they don't want high profile tournament matches decided on "lol lava".

 

[Overswarm]

Threads like this just make me sad. I'll never understand why people want to cut out 75% of an amazing game's core mechanics before they even play the game, so I won't bother arguing this time. One needs only to check out some of the FCD videos from last year to see amazing play and matches on Brinstar/Mute City.


Man up.

I'll keep fighting the good fight.

Because they don't want high profile tournament matches decided on "lol lava".

They don't. You just think they do because you don't know any better.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Stuff

I meant more that we could keep data from current events of other games in the system too so people playing the other games still have access to this cool program too. I bet 64, Melee, and Brawl players still would be curious about data from today's tournaments.

If we could get every tournament of Smash4 to collect the data MLG did (or at least similar data), that would indeed be fantastic.
At least every major should try for it.

Well, I'm already months into working on being able to do this, lucky us!!!

 

[nat pagle]

They don't. You just think they do because you don't know any better.

Then tournaments would have all had them since forever, you think this logic suddenly makes everyone say, "hey, lets allow all the stages and items! What a great idea!".

Go ahead, allow as many stages as you want at your own tournament and see how many people take it seriously. No one would take a basketball game seriously played on a cracked playground's court.

 

[Overswarm]

Then tournaments would have all had them since forever, you think this logic suddenly makes everyone say, "hey, lets allow all the stages and items! What a great idea!".

Go ahead, allow as many stages as you want at your own tournament and see how many people take it seriously. No one would take a basketball game seriously played on a cracked playground's court.

The prior isn't true, unfortunately. If it was we wouldn't have a problem.

I did make tournaments with liberal stage lists. They had a ton of entrants.

 

[Frogman751]

i feel so bad for hugs because a lot of people are hating on him because they are all to ******** to see the real principle of the post. (Caps Lock time) THE SMASH COMMUNITY HAS DEBATED **** LIKE THIS FOR 3 GAMES ALREADY, OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT PLAY WITH ITEMS IN COMPETITIVE PLAY AND WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT KIND OF BULL**** TO LOOK FOR IN A STAGE IN ORDER TO BAN IT. Please do not hate on hugs...he knows what the **** hes talking about,

 

[nat pagle]

The prior isn't true, unfortunately. If it was we wouldn't have a problem.

I did make tournaments with liberal stage lists. They had a ton of entrants.

Really? You did? I guess everyone's just taking that up now and all the majors should do the same. And even if people entered your tournaments with liberal stage lists, it doesn't excuse the fact that quite a few stages benefit certain characters greatly, are liable to randomly benefit or hurt someone, or get in the way of the fighting so much that the outcome is greatly skewed.

Actually, go ahead and give the stage list for your tournaments. And I can go ahead and list off how the more liberal stages screw certain characters and give advantage to another. Or I can just link you to the wiki page that says why they are banned.

I'd also suggest making your way over to the Apex section in order to voice your concerns to. No reason not to fight for your point on the biggest stage possible.

 

[Overswarm]

Really? You did? I guess everyone's just taking that up now and all the majors should do the same. And even if people entered your tournaments with liberal stage lists, it doesn't excuse the fact that quite a few stages benefit certain characters greatly, are liable to randomly benefit or hurt someone, or get in the way of the fighting so much that the outcome is greatly skewed.

Actually, go ahead and give the stage list for your tournaments. And I can go ahead and list off how the more liberal stages screw certain characters and give advantage to another. Or I can just link you to the wiki page that says why they are banned.

I'd also suggest making your way over to the Apex section in order to voice your concerns to. No reason not to fight for your point on the biggest stage possible.

Go ahead and back up your assertions.

 

[nat pagle]

Go ahead and back up your assertions.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Banned_stage

http://www.apex-series.com/rules/brawl/

And every other major tournament that doesn't use a liberal stage list. Personally, I'm down with OP's ruleset. No nonsense.

 

[LiteralGrill]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Banned_stage

http://www.apex-series.com/rules/brawl/

And every other major tournament that doesn't use a liberal stage list. Personally, I'm down with OP's ruleset. No nonsense.

A bunch of those stages in the Apex ruleset are things people in this very thread said should be banned. And is that the rules for this year just to check? Even last year a lot of those stages are being banned in more and more tournaments.

And using the same wiki that says Luigi's Mansion is still being progressively banned is a terrible outdated resource.

 

[nat pagle]

A bunch of those stages in the Apex ruleset are things people in this very thread said should be banned. And is that the rules for this year just to check? Even last year a lot of those stages are being banned in more and more tournaments.

And using the same wiki that says Luigi's Mansion is still being progressively banned is a terrible outdated resource.

I'm not sure, but there's still quite a lot banned in the Apex ruleset. Regardless, many stages get banned in Apex as opposed to them becoming legal. I just googled it.

And Smash Wiki is right on most of the bans, you can change it if you want. The point still stands, we aren't going to a more liberal stage list.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not sure, but there's still quite a lot banned in the Apex ruleset. Regardless, many stages get banned in Apex as opposed to them becoming legal. I just googled it.

And Smash Wiki is right on most of the bans, you can change it if you want. The point still stands, we aren't going to a more liberal stage list.

Who's "we"? Depending on whoever else is going to do 3DS tournaments, I know I at least will be advocating on that end for an open ruleset with "only ban when game breaking" as a pillar. And I plan to require proof a problem exists as well.

Also, ask people why RC is banned. I bet they wont be quoting the wiki, you will hear "MK was too strong on that stage". That kind of argument was used to ban the stage by most people, even though it was proven to not actually be the problem everyone said it was.

The wiki on some stages does not even have ban reasons for some stages, and some information in some of the pages is false on top of that. Sorry, you can't use that as a resource, and if people are it shows people are misinformed when making rules, something I've complained about in this thread previously. Something that is a problem. Voting to ban a stage when not actually knowing about it is BAD.

 

[salaboB]

And Smash Wiki is right on most of the bans, you can change it if you want. The point still stands, we aren't going to a more liberal stage list.

You're right, but only because of close minded people who think that having to deal with a stage hazard takes less skill than having a flat level that never changes.

("Random deaths" are another way of saying "less skill is involved" btw. You may not have fully worked through to that conclusion yet, but it's how the logic ends.)

 

[Mr.Showtime]

You're right, but only because of close minded people who think that having to deal with a stage hazard takes less skill than having a flat level that never changes.

("Random deaths" are another way of saying "less skill is involved" btw. You may not have fully worked through to that conclusion yet, but it's how the logic ends.)

Then you are pretty much saying let's allow items. Your counter-argument is atrocious. At least some up with relevant arguments like Overswarm.

 

[trash?]

overswarm I'm not willing to deal with you, because your attitude is legitimately smug as hell, for someone who can't fully understand that people can subjectively dislike one stage over the other. norfair isn't fun for most people to play, so people do not play it. it's not god damn rocket science

drop the "EVERYONE BUT ME IS ILLOGICAL" schtick, it makes you sound delusional

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Can't we just save it until we at LEAST have had this game publicly played?

 

[nat pagle]

Can't we just save it until we at LEAST have had this game publicly played?

Yeah we can, but there are some stages that clearly won't be viable for competitive play. For instance, we know the 3DS stage with the giant spike thing for example, would definitely be banned.

But overall, this thread is more or less the criteria for a stage to be banned in any Smash game.

 

[kackamee]

I like when people can't argue against Overswarm and resort to insults before they start with anything else.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yeah we can, but there are some stages that clearly won't be viable for competitive play. For instance, we know the 3DS stage with the giant spike thing for example, would definitely be banned.

But overall, this thread is more or less the criteria for a stage to be banned in any Smash game.

I mean I agree with that criteria, and in-fact, I encourage a more detailed criteria just so we don't deal with bull****. Go for it in-fact, really. Save us time.

I just think we can wait as well but whatever, hype.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

I like when people can't argue against Overswarm and resort to insults before they start with anything else.

I argued against him and have yet to resort to insult. He is probably the prime suspect of insulting people. That's kind of a hypocrite thing to say. I would like him more if he didn't constantly call people who disagree with him illogical morons (of course, this is not exactly what he says, but usually along the lines).

 

[trash?]

I like when people can't argue against Overswarm and resort to insults before they start with anything else.

it's almost like people don't like how obnoxious he is to others or something

 

[kackamee]

I mean I agree with that criteria, and in-fact, I encourage a more detailed criteria just so we don't deal with bull****. Go for it in-fact, really. Save us time.

I just think we can wait as well but whatever, hype.

Why do you agree with it? Something that limits potential diversity and viability. Of course stages with random hazards that instant kill would be banned, but we've made it to the point where pretty much any stage that isn't flat with a couple platforms will never be played on. In my opinion, I liked the diversity of stages and I think it's pretty sad that we want to cut so much already from a game we haven't even touched.