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Propaganda

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
Driven by the 'glass-half-empty' morale of the forum, I have decided to write this letter in hopes of reshaping the group-think of our team. My intentions are to establish a workhouse that acknowledges the 'bottom dog' mentality, and yet stubbornly strives toward the goal of metagame dominance. This will support the continued progression of Mr. Game & Watch. - Neb
GW is definitely bad, everyone says i'm trying to play him "like brawl" he doesnt play any different. He still gets camped, he still doesnt really have any safe approaches. Range isn't really an issue in this game so that's nice, but he's still weaker. The extra lag on landings doesn't help as much as I thought it would because the only real punish you can get from a distance is dash attack. His nerfed hitboxes are the main culprit. I never really noticed how vital that was for him to get kills.
Please allow me to begin by saying, this is in fact Game & Watch's third consecutive appearance in a violent sport. By no means a young man anymore, it is understandable for us to observe some questionable revision in his playstyle as he is forced to adapt to age, and the inevitable deterioration of the human body.

For one, he is tinier. But we know that a small hurtbox makes for a difficult target. Especially a target moving fast. See this becoming the foundational principle for players of this character. The skilled G&W will be marked by an uncanny ability to accelerate his speed and movement to the limits of the character model. Buffer, foxtrot, FF, autocancel, DI, crouch, Upb... This should be so strongly enforced throughout our following that it becomes common to hear G&W is "too fast, and uncatchable" within the match-up discussions of our competition. I say this because he is the quickest he has ever been.

Several aerials can be 'explosive', especially rising or FH'd, allow for great DI control in the early frames and also clean sequencing into the other midair spectrum (most notably with bair). Together, Fire and Parachute immediately transport G&W away from or toward his opponent. The option to...

1. Angle upb
2. Cancel into aerials or specials
3. Second jump directly out of an aerial, or later in the parachute animation
4. Drift left - right - or both
5. Delay his decent
6. Redirect his position
7. Ease of resetting Upb

...all greatly transform the benefit of prolonged airtime. Giving us a wide escape route, and aerial dominance by extending our SH and SJ options across the entire screen. It also allows G&W to tailor his tempo for the situation at hand, and inspires countless mixups. While the invincibility frames seem to initiate sooner than we saw in Brawl. The remaining aerials (one of which allows G&W to engage his opponent un-compromised: uair), and the wind hitbox of dtilt, together deny anything coming from above, or from an angle... That is a powerful tool. Few character's are able to control an up-and-down zone as swift and effectively.

On top of this, notice as G&W simulates rising high into the altitude, his body becomes smaller in size until finally releasing the chute to land. As we imagine him coming from the sky, his true size returns within the later frames of his chute animation... The take away here is G&W's command over his hurtbox -- the only way our opponent can deal percent damage. As we explore proper timing/movement in order to eliminate punishment and reposition ourselves for offense, there is a new potential in his metagame.

Yeah like, I'm kinda disappointed observing that G&W especially just doesn't have the potential KO power he used to. His options for edgeguarding are worse. And his Smashes not only are still hard to land, they just don't kill as early as they should. Your opponent SHOULD die at 80% when you land a G&W Smash. That was the appeal to G&W's Smashes, and it isn't there anymore, and his hitboxes and damage racking are also worse.
When it comes down to it, the object of the game is to KO your opponent while not being KO'd yourself. We knockout by racking damage and landing a powerful blow, or gimp. We avoid being knocked out by solid defence, offensive dominance, or evasion...

Look at the tools we have been given. There's Upb, dashA, jab, fair, bair -- and to a lesser extent -- dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, and dsmash. These are arguably the sharpest tools in our box, and a detail they all have in common is the direction of their knockback. It goes without saying that as we inflict more damage, the force of trajectory is sufficient enough to guarantee the foe is repositioned offstage. Game & Watch does not fit the bill of a glass cannon, traditional zoner, or even a juggler... Our current moveset actually supports a playstyle that is firmly centered around edgeguarding.

- Upb, KO/stagespike/steal ledge
- Bair, priority advantage
- Dair, KO/spike/juggling
- Uair, freefall KO setup/juggling
- Fair/Soft Fair, KO/steal SJ/stage spike
- DashA, stagespike
- Dtilt windbox, ledgegrab freefall
- Chef, steal SJ/panspike

When we ready an approach or look to punish our opponent, the thought is to "Evade - Poke - Gimp." In that order. These are our strengths. We gain leverage by pressuring our competition into positions where Game & Watch may fully stretch his aerodynamic playstyle in order to gimp, rack damage, refresh his moveset, and control the options/decisions of his opponent.

I don't mind the power nerf on smashes but the bair nerf is what's the most depressing. We no longer have a way to approach or shield pressure the opponent AT ALL. Yes back air was predictable as **** in brawl but at least we had the option. We have nothing now.
it's just so difficult to have to get somebody to 150% each stock and hope to land a KO with the limited options available while simultaneously having no margin for error against some characters above 90%.

So many characters have specials that can KO, have tremendous reach with those and have multiple powerful options. G&W doesn't have any of that. I can rack damage up really well but I just cannot finish without a perfect read and I get punished so easily if I misread them even slightly.
Before we can discuss approaching, it is good to clarify the reasons WHY we decide to approach. When G&W initiates an offense, his ultimate goal is not to rack up damage and risk trading hits, but to set the match into his favor by bullying enemies off the ledge, or into the air. As stated earlier, we have plenty of tools and mechanical advantages for this. It's only when we imagine G&W being primarily a zoner-type, as with the character Marth, that approaching appears to be a weak point for us.

Fair is now the weapon of choice. Disjointed and safe on shield, with solid damage and minimal landing frames. A single hitbox reduces the trouble that bair finds in DI'ing opponents, and allows for clean shield weakening to open the door for commonly 'unsafe' approaches. Furthering an offensive variety. The soft hit jab resets, and good DI can be used to punish a baited attack. Fair is excellent rising, FF'd, and SH'd. While most mistakes can be forgiven with a buffered jab, shield, spotdodge, Upb, or buffering a retreating bair... The crucial point is that it sends the opponent in a linear path to link directly into the dominance of his edge game.

There are character's that have more options offensively, and others defensively. On the map, G&W seems to fit nicely into a reaction based zone when challenged parallel to his opponent. As stated earlier, the opponents approach is cut to a forward charge because of the priority and quickness of Upb. But establishing caution with bair further limits this path by outranging and prioritising many ground/air options. Use the bair for eating short ranged or non-disjointed hitboxes, but also for poking a weak shield.

Not many people can pressure G&W without a projectile because his escape routes are so intricate, and pressuring him onto the ledge is not actually an advantage for his opponent. This reinforces "Evade - Poke - Gimp." We zone with intelligent use of walls (displaying certain moves to block options), denying aerial angles (Upb), and weaker, short-ranged approaches (bair).

This, along with Upb and Fair Oos, buffed DashA, buffed jab, and our versatile grab, make for solid punishing options that ALL extend to the primary goal -- edgeguard. I would encourage G&W's to approach sparingly.

1. Allow your opponent to initiate
2. Influence their decision with creative walls & spacing
3. Punish

Accumulating damage on your opponent then becomes a natural result of baiting, poking, and defending the ledge. You will be less prone to trading hits and sustaining damage (key as a lightweight), while further confusing and frustrating your opponent.

- INFORMATION -
Options
- Crouch
- Foxtrot
- F-air, reduced landing lag
- Aerial speed and attack sequencing
- DashA less committed; forward knockback
- Smashes safe on block
- Excellent recovery
- Final hit jab, with respectable knockback
- Smaller profile/hurtbox
- Dthrow combinations, low-mid%
- Dtilt windbox
- Usmash impenetrable start-up frames
- Bucket, instant fill opportunities
- True random Judgement
- Move refreshing with uair, dtilt, upb windboxes

Challenges
- Utilt, smaller hitboxes
- Dtilt, cooldown
- Fsmash, spacing and linear sweetspot
- Dsmash, smaller hitbox
- Nair, missing hitbox
- Dair, no slow fall alternative - laggy
- No bucket braking

Questions to Research
- Reduced ftilt cooldown
- Double hit utilt (7% x 2 dmg) out of dthrow
- Punishing new airdodge lag, land traps
- Capitalising on spawn invincibility
- Upb, startup or mid execution invincibility frames
- Dtilt windbox to toss into freefall state as foe snaps to ledge
- More DI control in parachute
- Approaching (outside), with uair to lift aerial approaches that may outrange

My intentions moving forward with this thread is to have continued discussion and testing of the Game & Watch metagame. As the generator of our forum, all new information and insight will be added as they are proven reliable.

Best.
 
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_hunt

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
16
Firstly, brilliant post. You're right. It's time to forget Brawl, cast away the shackles and lamentations of his nerfs, and work towards utilising his tools and assets the best we can!

I see you quoted something I said the other day - about GDubs not being able to kill until higher %s. I posted that while I was in the midst of a 2-8 streak online - highly frustrated. I have since made adjustments and gone 15-5. I was playing G&W completely wrong and was being very '1 dimensional' in my approach.

The new Game & Watch actually has a number of ways to challenge the opponent. Sure, they're not heavy hitting options, but they chip away at them, change up the speed of the game and generally can cause confusion or frustration.

He has a lot of interesting tools at his disposal and I think for the first time ever he may actually be truly unpredictable! That's how I feel right now, at least.
 

Splice

Smash Hero
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As a long time Brawl Game and Watch boards regular/part-time lurker, I definitely gotta say there's always been a negative stigma around the boards. Many people switched to MK or IC's and reserved GnW for doubles only. And when new people came to ask about Game and Watch, answers could be pretty bleak at times. It was pretty sad :(

I support your approach 100% Neb, and hopefully I can help bring some stuff the the table too (I'm waiting for Wii-U though, only playing 3DS at smashfests)

I feel like not listing Usmash as one of our tools is bit of an oversight, which has a deceptively large hitbox and is quite easy to trade favourably and fish safely with, especially with how fast you can chuck a Dtilt out afterwards. I find it the easiest to get value out of but pivot Fsmash is pretty tricky too.
And apparently we have a useful DACUS now? I can't confirm

Dair appears far less safe than it was in Brawl because of the new endlag and the inability to slowfall it, so it's super punishable and hard to get a defense up in time after you land. It'd be good to have more info on autocancel timings though, if they exist.

The other stuff, like our general strengths, I feel you summarised really nicely.
Evade. Poke. Gimp.
I'll be rocking the EPG tag for sure
 

FrameImperfect

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EPG | FrameImperfect here.

Glad to see some positive reception on our old friend. I'll be more than happy to research and test anything suspicious.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
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@ _hunt _hunt
Thank you, hunt. A significant part of G&W's play style is built on intangibles. Variables that go beyond what button you press and affect the thinking of the actual player(s). As you said, there seems to be a deeper well for confusion and uncertainty. Moreso than in Melee or Brawl, he is equipped to be a rather difficult character to read. And also one that can strongly influence his opponent.

This is a good quote to mull over...

"Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people's actions. Your predictability gives them a sense of control. Turn the tables: Be deliberately unpredictable. Behaviour that seems to have no consistency or purpose will keep them off-balance and they will wear themselves out trying to explain your moves. Taken to an extreme, this strategy can intimidate and terrorise." - Sun Tzu's Art of War

However, being predictable can also work in our favour by setting a smokescreen -- a comfortable front behind which you can carry out deceptive actions. No amount of training or discipline can ever fully prepare your opponent for the chaos that prevails in battle. Which is why I believe our house should delve deeper into this truth moreso than all the other character forums to give us the advantage on a completely different scale. Have a library of mental games, brickwalls, traps, movement, positional advantages, etc. Constructively titled and explained so that Game & Watch mains are not having to exert so much mental effort in tournament, and can apply the different strategies by second nature. On the flip side, your opponent will have a headache fighting you -- especially those who believe their character is suppose to have the upper-hand.

Strategies for gathering info on how your opponent plays, others for deception, or intimidation, etc. We need to care about the things the others don't bother to look at. But it means our forum must have a culture that is organised, social, quick moving, and together in the dream of wanting to be on top. That's how we'll win. Defeat in detail.

@ Splice Splice
Most of a character's progression is dependent on the culture of the forum. The environment needs to support growth to grow. Since you were present around that time, you might remember the Marth community in Brawl. They were all knowledgeable on their character as well as other characters, the boards were well updated and everything had it's place. They came together on many possible ways to reconstruct their match-ups to his advantage.. It paid off.

At the end of the day, we need to be confident in the character. And if/when we're not, at least have faith in what the forum is capable of accomplishing together.

I also wanted to say that you made some great points about Usmash. When you reason it, the move is pretty safe because the damage output will usually trump the damage of a traded hit. The hitbox is quick, especially off a charge release. There are then frames in which G&W is invulnerable. Like you said -- a great move for fishing. If they're quick to approach, they learn a lesson. And if they bait it, we can buffer something else. Changing the release time also has carry over, and suddenly every time you put on the helmet, your opponent doesn't know what to do.

On the other-hand, dair is very specific. We have to consider the situation. With it's hitbox being directly under G&W, he is able to cover himself at an angle that is difficult for other aerials whenever we're above the opponent. However, it doesn't add to his offense on-stage because bair and fair are better equipped at applying a safe hitbox on grounded enemies. When G&W and his opponent are both in the air, dair is a safe option. If you're out-spaced by an aerial, it is better to b-reversal chef or judgement. A situation like this is then further avoided by proper use of the floating portion of Fire, and simply knowing when to expend your SJ.

What use do you see for ftilt?
 
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SFA Smiley

The SFA King
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I don't have time to read this right now, because im about to go out but i'm interested and excited to check this out.

I was also gonna make a video about the new way to play him in this game but If I find this really good, do i have permission to do a video version of this guide? (basically)
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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I haven't been around more partly because there is next to no G&W footage for me to analyze, but I've been trying very hard to be optimistic about G&W with what little I HAVE seen about the character.

As I've stated in other locations, I believe G&W is a more...evened out character in this game. The old playstyle we were used to with really powerful bullrushing aerials has been nerfed, but in exchange G&W is a more mobile character who can afford to play a bit more on the fly than in previous games.

It's not like G&W's gameplan is MUCH different. You're still first and foremost a spacing character that abuses disjoints for air control. It's just that I observe in actual practice you have a bit more room to make on the spot plays due to buffs to G&W's Jab, DA, and lower aerial attack durations. So you don't train wreck people by crashing into them with a single big move anymore. G&W's options are indeed...more evasive in this game.

Some nerfs are undeniably lame. D-air being a lot less safe on landing and removal of Bucket Braking mean you can't make as many mistakes with him. Smashes being weaker mean your powershield plays and hard reads don't feel nearly as good anymore. I do think though we can establish win conditions with good F-air spacing, the usual U-air juggles/traps into kills, and rediscovering edgeguarding which G&W is still competent in due to his strong recovery.
 
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Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
I don't have time to read this right now, because im about to go out but i'm interested and excited to check this out.

I was also gonna make a video about the new way to play him in this game but If I find this really good, do i have permission to do a video version of this guide? (basically)
Of course. I believe you make-up 90% of the G&W footage we have to pull from. It's proven very helpful to me, so if you're willing, please do.

Some nerfs are undeniably lame. D-air being a lot less safe on landing and removal of Bucket Braking mean you can't make as many mistakes with him. Smashes being weaker mean your powershield plays and hard reads don't feel nearly as good anymore. I do think though we can establish win conditions with good F-air spacing, the usual U-air juggles/traps into kills, and rediscovering edgeguarding which G&W is still competent in due to his strong recovery.
At best a mix-up in brawl, dair has always been risky on grounded opponents. It's utility, I believe, has not evolved in any substantial way. But should be used more sparingly as our remaining aerials are better at covering the options it provided in the previous game. I'm sure you know it's a decent move when both players are in the air, especially edgeguarding, or striking through platforms. But G&W should not seek to position himself directly above the opponent... it's not a stronghold for us.

Going along with nerfs, uair does not produce the powerful draft it did in brawl. The hitbox may be smaller. Nair has also been stripped of a hitbox, and the lot of his moveset promises a horizontal trajectory. If it wasn't for the new spotdodge lag, I might say this drastically affects his juggling game. Yet in comparison to our edgeguard, juggling does not stand on equal ground. Off stage, we put our opponent in a comprised state since they will lose a stock if unable to recover, and at the same time, cannot risk being predictable. Recoveries are one of the easiest reads in the game. So I find juggling to be far less lethal, and edgeguarding to be G&W's primary position of power. It also multiples the strength of his aerials (ie. bair) because your opponent's spacing is hindered by the need to reach the map.

I agree though -- fair is going to be fundamental.

PS - Nice speaking with you again, it's been sometime.
 
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FrameImperfect

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Whenever we throw our opponents, 9 times out of 10 it needs to be down throw, it's our most reliable throw option unless you're preparing to gimp the opponent, in which case b/fthrow. It may sound obvious but so few G&W players i meet online do it.
 

_hunt

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2014
Messages
16
You're right.

dthrow is such an effective combo. I've only started using it in the last 50 matches or so (I was never good enough to grab in Brawl) and since then my win percentage has shot up. I played my cousin the other day for the first time since learning to grab and he was complaining about how 'cheap' and spammy it was haha. It's so effective.
 

Rich Homie Quan

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
887
I usually just play GnW for fun, but your post kind of inspired me, Neb. You da man

Let's make this dude the best he can be
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
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Apr 11, 2008
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You've inspired me, Neb. I'm here for Mr. Game & Watch again!

We'll definitely need to explore the new Ledge mechanics and our move interactions with it to maximize our revised game plan. A lot of the stuff we used to do still works, but we have to be even more savvy since we lost a lot of outright kill potential in the transition from Brawl -> Sm4sh.

Goodness, Dash Attack is beautiful - Anyone know if we have a cute DACUS now?
 

Kofu

Smash Master
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I was going to make a post about how much of what you talked about in the OP is basically the same as what we had in Brawl, just that we have to be more careful with it now, but I can't properly compose my thoughts or put in the appropriate effort to really type it out. :p I'm probably most disappointed with the removal of NAir's SH autocancel. It was our only AC aerial in the first place, and it was such a great ground spacing tool.

Personally, I'm not seeing the hype for DA, or at least how it's that much different than Brawl. I always thought it was an underutilized option in that game for punishing spotdodges/rolls/ledgegrabs. And on that last note, you can't really stage spike with it anymore since the knockback is (usually) forward now.

As far as I know, Mr. Escalator, we do have a DACUS now, but I don't have the equipment to test it. You'd have to get concrete confirmation somewhere else.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
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@ Mr. Escalator Mr. Escalator
Thank you. So good to have the old brothers back. Let's take no prisoners this time around.

@ Kofu Kofu
There are points I reintroduced for newcomer emphasis, but also to demonstrate the minor peculiarities from Brawl, and how these details affect the overall scheme of things. This is apparent in Upb, which aside from added SJ mechanics, also exhibits a quicker start-up, higher apex, and perhaps frame 1 invincibility. Since we have an enduring moveset, there are going to be tactics that survive. However, they don't operate in a way that allows us to completely transplant his old playstyle into this game. My sticking point is that despite mechanical differences ("nerfs"), we can still pull off some of the old tricks, and that ultimately his strengths have shifted to the ledge. As well as overall character movement.

Smiley has confirmed nair into dsmash (14:11). And since Dsmash is by no means our quickest option, it seems the lag isn't substantial. To me, fair is a solid go-to on the ground and guarantees consistent damage. Having two hitboxes also has carry over as a versatile spacing tool.

DashA appears to have less start-up and moves G&W quicker. The benefits might be something you practice in order to perceive, but many of our following are in agreement here. There could be a second, situational hitbox, but otherwise it will consistently tackle forward. Stagespike confirmed (8:20). This situational hitbox I referred to, I've noticed, is probably triggered on low hurtboxes (ie. a prone, or ledge grabbing opponent). Either way -- beside the ledge -- our enemy is going off the map and into a disadvantaged state.

Have you noticed new options for G&W?

@ FrameImperfect FrameImperfect
I want to take you up on your offer. There's a lot of speculation on his moveset, so we need solid information in order to continue. Could you possibly test these:

1. Is Upb invincible on startup
2. What affect does dtilt (wind box) have on an opponent that is holding on, or snapping to the ledge
3. DashA hitbox affect on fallen and hanging opponents
 
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wavesofwar74

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I mained G&W throughout the life of Brawl, but never really took him competitively. When Smashfor came out, I was torn between playing someone new, and gravitated towards Pac-Man, since he seemed a bit similar. But I felt weird about it, like "Am I really going to abandon Gdubs?" This post rekindled that flame in my spirit of being a wonky, confusing, unexpected enemy, and I won't be turning back!
I'm going to be reading through the forums on strategies to get me up to speed, but can you recommend a few articles that I absolutely shouldn't miss? I'd love to help with any research too, I want to make sure we keep em all on their toes!
 

FrameImperfect

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@ Mr. Escalator Mr. Escalator
@ FrameImperfect FrameImperfect
I want to take you up on your offer. There's a lot of speculation on his moveset, so we need solid information in order to continue. Could you possibly test these:

1. Is Upb invincible on startup
2. What affect does dtilt (wind box) have on an opponent that is holding on, or snapping to the ledge
3. DashA hitbox affect on fallen and hanging opponents
No problem, Neb. I'm currently testing the invincibility of Up B in training mode vs. Doc. Speed slowed to 1/4th.

I'm able to do Up B through Doc's pills on startup. A small "spark" appears when you go through it. I'm able to do the same thing against a full Charge Shot or Sun Salutation.

In summary, Up B is invincible on startup against projectiles.

EDIT: Okay guys, i think i found something significant, I'll send you my findings and let you guys be surprised.

http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=rar85jc_aZs

Apparently, DPC Fsmash works in this game just like in Brawl.
 
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Neb

Smash Lord
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Apr 19, 2008
Messages
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@ wavesofwar74 wavesofwar74
Glad to have you back. Our team is slowly taking shape.

Since the game is still very new, there aren't many informative articles for you to read. This thread appears to be the start of our competitive metagame discussion. Practicing the information in here will get you up to speed and support you as we build the forum. If you're eager to help in this process, here are some things you could research:

1. Follow-up options out of dthrow (especially with utilt, and dtilt windbox)
2. New ledge mechanics/rules
3. Confirm or deny Dash Attack Canceled Usmash

@ FrameImperfect FrameImperfect
Thanks, man. This could be an impressive buff to our defensive/evasive playstyle. Invincibility frames at start-up is a priceless tool, especially when the character is actively moving as an option against multi-hit attacks. Even rushing a projectile approach. There's potential here for a dragon punch shoryuken, minus the vulnerability. Excited to see the information you have for us.
 
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Kofu

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@ Kofu Kofu
There are points I reintroduced for newcomer emphasis, but also to demonstrate the minor peculiarities from Brawl, and how these details affect the overall scheme of things. This is apparent in Upb, which aside from added SJ mechanics, also exhibits a quicker start-up, higher apex, and perhaps frame 1 invincibility. Since we have an enduring moveset, there are going to be tactics that survive. However, they don't operate in a way that allows us to completely transplant his old playstyle into this game. My sticking point is that despite mechanical differences ("nerfs"), we can still pull off some of the old tricks, and that ultimately his strengths have shifted to the ledge. As well as overall character movement.
The only question I have here is what the change in SJ mechanics are involving Up-B. I don't mean to sound like a critic, but I believe that they function similarly to Brawl in that you could use Fire, use an aerial, then use the SJ. Is there something I'm missing? I'd love to be able to jump directly out of Fire.
Smiley has confirmed nair into dsmash (14:11). And since Dsmash is by no means our quickest option, it seems the lag isn't substantial. To me, fair is a solid go-to on the ground and guarantees consistent damage. Having two hitboxes also has carry over as a versatile spacing tool.
I've been able to string multiple NAirs into each other from SHs, so I know it's still a good juggling tool at lower percents. It does seem to be, however, less safe in general, since from what I can see the hitboxes don't seem to go as low. The bigger loss is that, since the move actually ended before the SH did in Brawl, we could jump again to maneuver before hitting the ground. Knowing that NAir can lead into DSmash is nice, though.
DashA appears to have less start-up and moves G&W quicker. The benefits might be something you practice in order to perceive, but many of our following are in agreement here. There could be a second, situational hitbox, but otherwise it will consistently tackle forward. Stagespike confirmed (8:20). This situational hitbox I referred to, I've noticed, is probably triggered on low hurtboxes (ie. a prone, or ledge grabbing opponent). Either way -- beside the ledge -- our enemy is going off the map and into a disadvantaged state.
I should have been a little more specific; I think DA is a great option, but it was a good move in Brawl too. I think you're right, though, it does seem to come out a mite quicker. In my experience hitting people with the front of the move will launch them forward and hitting people with the back of it will send them behind you, which is reversed from Brawl. It's also a little more useful at punishing attacks from shield with the lessened hitstun.
Have you noticed new options for G&W?
Well, what I came in here to post initially was this research thread that states that our DACUS actually stops us, just like it did in Brawl.

Other options I've seen are using DTilt to punish people using specials to recover horizontally, especially if it puts them into specialfall. Either they'll go prone off the stage and die, or be placed in a helpless state over the stage, allowing us to juggle them with UAir, hit them with an aerial, or predict where they'll land and hit them with a smash (or if you're feeling lucky, Judge).

I've also seen FTilt become more usable in general. In Brawl it basically had no use. FSmash was more powerful and also had a lingering hitbox, and DTilt was faster (and longer) and had enough knockback to make it safe. With the removal of FSmash's lingering hitbox and DTilt's added ending lag (as well as its more situational uses with the windbox), FTilt has become a lot more enticing as a grounded spacing tool.

Jab is also a lot better thanks to the finishing blow added to it. It's probably better for punishing really close attempts on shield than anything else.

The new DThrow opens up some options as well. It has more true combo potential and as has been noted in another thread, seems to legitimately lead into Judge at low percents. At a little higher percents you can nail them with an aerial, and when the knockback gets really high Up-B can nail them as they fly out of our grasp.
 

Neb

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In Brawl, Kofu, you could only SJ after an immediate aerial. This time we're able to aerial > SJ during any frame of the parachute animation (20:44). His floating ability now becomes a dependable tool for spacing, evasion, returning above the opponent, and attacking off the map. It's something to explore.

In total agreement with your remarks on nair and ftilt. Chair looks solid off a pivot, and will likely be the new choice for his ground game. Theorising now... G&W's ability to zone on the map may be level with Brawl. I say this after considering versatility of the pivot tilt. A typical counter will be to shield dash, however G&W's pivot grab is still deceivingly reliable. It's actually quite good. We have usmash and jab, but notice that G&W is perfectly set to fair or shrink into an Oos response. Even a crouch is good to mix in, especially with our priority Upb to punch through... virtually anything. Such options would give him a false retreat that allows us to effectively regain lengths of the map, or reset the neutral position, and is a difficult tactic to counter. In the back of my mind, I also consider what chef could offer as it seems quicker in some regarded.

What potential do you see for a jab trap?
 
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wavesofwar74

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I've come to the same conclusions as Kofu in regards to Gdubs' DACUS, namely that whenever I manage to pull it off, I stop completely. If the goal is to travel distance while prepping an upsmash, a sliding diver is going to cover more ground. I imagine this would be useful up to a few times per match, but any more will probably become predictable.

On a different note, I've been finding bair>ftilt>dash to be a useful little combo. The chair just comes out so fast and the horizontal knockback put Marth right in the way of my DA. I'm going to keep this in mind as I play more matches and see how other opponents react to it.

One last thing I've been LOVING is the upB---so much kill potential there because of how easy it is to chase a launched enemy, get between them and the stage, and trampoline! I noticed that the trampoline doesn't go straight up anymore, but has a slight arc at the top of the jump, towards the direction you're facing when the upB is performed. I also need to test more whether knockback direction is somewhat dependent on the direction you're facing when you make contact with your opponent. I'm not sure on this, but I thought I noticed some amount of influence there.
 

Mr. Escalator

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I figure many of you saw already, but there's some landing lag frame data that's out:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair|Air Dodge
Mr. Game & Watch | 12 | 15 | 24 | 12 | 28 | 22
What's really notable is that, on the whole, G&W's landing lag on his aerials has increased from Brawl. The exception is that Fair's landing lag essentially swapped places with Bair, and now Bair is the laggier of the two upon landing. This isn't too bad for Bair, however, since it does have the landing hitbox.

Oh, and Dair has 13 more frames of landing lag and isn't able to be slowfalled - keep this in mind when you consider using it onstage.

I can't wait for more usable Frame Data!

Also, as far as custom moves goes, what are everyone's thoughts? Heavy Trampoline has been putting in work for me, and I'm impressed. Bucket/Judgement don't feel like they are worth changing.
 

A2ZOMG

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All versions of Chef look usable for different purposes. Regular Chef controls air the best on stage. Fast Chef is good for a more standard projectile zoning. Giant Chef probably has the most utility when edgeguarding.

Heavy Trampoline also looks legit too, and I'd probably consider running that consistently. Though it might be worth considering running the other Up-B custom if you really like D-air edgeguarding.
 
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tomCat

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Oct 1, 2014
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Ftilt and Jab are so fast to come out now.

As a GW in Brawl I thought that GW was so much worse in this game until I saw this thread. It totally reinvigorated my GW spirit and he is by far my strongest character because of the amount of mindgames you can play between parashoot and chef. Unpredictability is his gig, for sure.

In fact, in For Glory I can't hold a positive win ratio as any other character other than GW. But some match-ups are far more difficult than others: Lucina and Marth, to name two in particular. Lucina makes me want to merely jump off the edge after she easily first stocks me thanks to her fat hitboxes. If I try to play the match-up out, it's usually a long game of evading and chef-dashing. Peach has a similar match up. I only wish I could bucket her turnip (and similarly, all the other projectile items that he can't bucket).
 

WindozeNT

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I've been experimenting with Oil Panic and found that it got a huge buff. You can now bucket explosions, and most will be insta-fills. Bob-Ombs, gooey bombs, motion-sensor bombs are among the best items.
With Bob-Ombs, you can either hold them or get near them before they destroy themselves or walk into you, then bucket to catch the explosion. You can also do the same with gooey bombs, except you can throw it on the opponent then run into them so the gooey bomb sticks to you. Run around until the bomb starts flashing, then stop and bucket. With motion-sensor bombs, you can walk on one and bucket (or wait for someone else to walk on it instead). Bombchus thrown by opponents can also be bucketed, but they only give you 2 units. Duck Hunt's cans can be bucketed for a single unit of oil, but only if the can blows up by itself, not by hitting you. You can't bucket smart bombs, deku nuts, Hocotate bombs or X-bombs, however.
The greatest thing about this aside from being able to bucket even more things is that Mr. Game & Watch is invincible for the duration of the explosion and takes absolutely no damage or knockback from it (but only if the explosion is bucketable). All of the explosion's damage go directly into the bucket without negatively affecting G&W, making Oil Panic a more important move than it previously was. The filling process is also instant; by the time the explosion is over, Mr. Game & Watch has already put away the bucket, so it can be possible to make the opponent overlook the fact he now has a full bucket and think the move just negated damage. I think this can be great in mind games (although he flashes when he has a full bucket). Additionally, explosion oil tends to normally KO anyone it touches. The move as a whole appears to cap at 60%.

Another thing I noticed is that it appears to be slightly easier to land the meteor smash in his Donkey Kong Jr.
 
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Cecil-

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New to comp smash, and holy crap G&W just seems really good. He just has random gimpy hitboxes and damn. I've never really liked G&W before either.

I'm completely sold on Heavy parachute, it has really great height being perfect for followups, and it KO's when sweetspotted. You lose a bit of height but its worth it. And I haven't tested this but it might have super armour as well, or at least on startup.

His bair has a hitbox that sends them straight down and can KO. You have to hit on the 1st hit while landing while your opponent is offstage.

Theres a situational gimp combo which may or may not be a guaranteed KO, dthrow-heavy tramp-dair on the edge on most chars at about 30%. Even onstage, dthrow-heavy tramp-fair is guaranteed and does something like 25%. Heavy tramp has a really good height and is a great followup to dthrow.

DashA definitely has another hitbox, I have a clip of it getting a KO at 50% but can't link it till I get 10 posts :(

I'm gonna upload some more kooky stuff that I've found, I have footage of the bair hit too.
 

AdaptiveTrigger

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Started playing Game and Watch and I'm really enjoying him, but I'm starting to notice some problems with specific character match ups. So far I've been having this problem with Greninja and Fox, but I'm quite sure there are others.

Down throw into Utilt doesn't work on these characters at all (their stances make them crouch under the Utilt entirely). Instead, I can try comboing into Ftilt after about 8% (before the grab). Before 8%, I try jabbing them (which is a habit I'll have to stop because of what's next).

Even worse, GaW's jab does not string well against these two to the point to where I could jab them then try to continue the jab string only for them to break out of the combo, interrupt my jab string completely, and start jabbing me without any way to stay safe after the jab is initiated.

I'm having a lot of difficulty racking up damage and defending myself even when I read my opponent successfully. Bleh...what to do?
 

Bonds

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G&W can still kill pretty well because of the new engine and airdodge landing lag. We have the threat of powerful aerials, so an empty jump prompting an airdodge near the ground could land us a free upsmash, which still kills mad early
 

Ryusuta

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Honestly, I've been playing Game & Watch a lot out of curiosity and I have to say he really isn't THAT badly nerfed. Like... yeah, the Bucket Brake is gone, but he's still got a lot of nice tools and barely seems different at all. I'm also finding a lot of interesting uses for his XXL Chef and Heavy Trampoline customs. Overall, he's kind of been an interesting secondary for me lately, and I'm enjoying him a lot.
 

Hydruz

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sweet thread. i gotta say gnw is alot different than brawl and maining him in brawl alot of bad habits carried over, dair is pretty much useless to use unless for edgeguarding, and landing with any ariel is begging for a punish. i do like the bucket-throw shenanigans, hes definitely going to be a beast in teams like he was in brawl. he feels like a whole new char which is i guess cool, but i do miss plowing someones first stock at like 70 with a nice fsmash read
 

Ryusuta

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sweet thread. i gotta say gnw is alot different than brawl and maining him in brawl alot of bad habits carried over, dair is pretty much useless to use unless for edgeguarding, and landing with any ariel is begging for a punish. i do like the bucket-throw shenanigans, hes definitely going to be a beast in teams like he was in brawl. he feels like a whole new char which is i guess cool, but i do miss plowing someones first stock at like 70 with a nice fsmash read
What's this "going to be" stuff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg

<3
 

Azekahh

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I've been playing G&W since Melee, and although I'm not really that good at Melee competitively, I've been loving him in Brawl, and in 3DS so far. It's so fun to go up against people on For Glory who just don't see G&W coming and to be good enough with him that you can beat them really well, and those D-Throws help a whole heck of a lot... although, they are a bit tricky on the timing.
One combo that I've been using frequently is D-Throw to U-Air to Fair (if they're close enough), and unless they're playing with a character who has a parry move, it kills most of the time around 100-130%.
 

KokiriKory

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Hey man thanks for the write-up. I feel dirty running around the stage, but he's got that ability. It should be used.

Very frustrating, he's always been one of my favorites and I feel like i have to relearn him (while almost every character seems to have made a smoother transition).

practice practice practice



edit: well 12 hours later I feel VERY comfortable using G&W. I own him again. :) That dash attack.....

Thanks again!
 
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TheGentlebro

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Wow, this is all very helpful information.

Definitely a new way to look at G&W's play style for me, especially since in Brawl I pretty much just spammed forward airs at people (I wasn't very good at Brawl :3) I'll be practicing him more and making note of stuff on this thread, and I'll be sure to report if I find anything that could be beneficial or otherwise to the guy.
 

Metmetm3t

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Wow, this is all very helpful information.

Definitely a new way to look at G&W's play style for me, especially since in Brawl I pretty much just spammed forward airs at people (I wasn't very good at Brawl :3) I'll be practicing him more and making note of stuff on this thread, and I'll be sure to report if I find anything that could be beneficial or otherwise to the guy.


Hello, and have I introduced you to the Alabama Smash League? Come chat with us in the Alabama Thread or on our Facebook Group
 
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Dr. Robotnik

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What a brilliant and way ahead of the meta post this was. At the high caliber play im at right now, everyone ive talked too seems to think Gnw is bad and unviable. Ive money matched a few good players with my scrub gnw from just the stuff i was learning on my own without research and was turning some heads. After getting back from North West Regionals and taking 5th and almost beat M2k (came to last hit in 2 rounds) i really decided to go under the Lab with Gnw seeing the limitations of my own character Yoshi and needing something to fill for those bad match ups.

What im finding is i feel Gnw is actually a much MUCH stronger character than people realize and just about everything you said in your post is not only true, but very insightful. With now the frame data posted and more knowledge on more characters, I really want to represent Gnw at APEX 2015.

I need some help though. I need some more tight frame data on some of Gnw moves. the most important one is his upsmash. Invincibility starts on frame 4, hit starts and ends 24-25 and invincibility ends on frame 26. The animation is fast enough where it doesnt look like gnw leaves the upsmash animation, so im curious if the move ends completely on frame 27 or 28, if so, that leaves only 5-6 frames of vulnerability. Ive been beating out ganon f-air and so many powerful moves by baiting them when they approach in the air by catching them in the d-tilt wind box, than upsmashing and getting free hits. It also feels much safer than spot dodging.
 
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