Proof that Sakurai *is* in touch with his franchise...(New Interview w/ Sakurai)

[Roxas215]

That still doesn't mean that the game doesn't have strong universal appeal.


I'd actually like to see the numbers on that. Even then, the numbers weren't terribly far off. The argument was that there was "no way" Street Fighter had as much appeal as Marvel. It obviously has at least similar appeal.

1. I never said that. Did everyone miss me saying im a avid fan of sf??

2. Your right. The numbers weren't that far off. But statscially sf was 3rd place.

3.All im saying is marvel is more fun to watch then sf and theres a ton of reasons why. Wether u think sf is a better game or not is a tottaly different debate.

Also u need to understand that this was the first evo for Ultra as well as the big 7 from japan being there and marvel STILL had more viewrs. The difference in views at normal majors between marvel and sf is alot larger then the evo views.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Marvel vs. Capcom 2

...And this is where we fundamentally disagree. Fighting game series evolves over time. Later iterations are not always entirely similar to previous ones. In fact, it's arguably a bad idea to make another game that's Melee 2.0 simply because Melee has stood as the standard for SO LONG that multiple tournament players aren't going to move over no matter what the new game is like (unless it's almost an exact duplicate of melee). You'd just be splitting the community.

This post is very ironic considering Sakurai intentionally made Brawl as far from Melee as possible and guess what happened? It split the community.

Needless to say your stance holds no more weight than mine does; arguably less considering Brawl being so vastly different from Melee is what led to its eventual downfall. Brawl never would have received nearly as much scrutiny as it did if the development team made an honest effort to make it more similar to Melee instead of intentionally axing everything that competitive players loved about it.

Instead of finding a middle ground between competitive players and casuals the development team chose to blatantly ignore the competitive side, and competitive Brawl suffered as a result. I'm glad the development team is at least TRYING to find a balance this time around for Smash 4.

If a game like this wants to be competitively viable, it needs to be building its own community, not desperately hoping that the old community will adopt it whole-heartedly, because it's never going to happen. There's almost always gonna be more melee tournaments. Street Fighter II (pretty much the original tournament fighter) still has tournaments here and there, and its community isn't nearly as passionate as Melee's.

So, arguing that speed will be appropriate just because it was for Melee doesn't really add up. On top of that, one person could argue that the speed of melee is exactly the reason that melee's community was so divided. So, even if you want to go that way, that sword definitely has two edges to it.

Regardless, I haven't really seen any convincing arguments for why Smash 4 SHOULD be as fast as melee beyond "It'll be exciting" (Which, without other facts backing it up just doesn't necessarily ring true).

I've already addressed all of this. Speed may not be an important factor to you (or Kuma) but I've already highlighted why it will be for many others. Whether that's fair or not just comes down to personal preference.

 

[mario123007]

Sakurai put a much effort to this game guys, the new SSB4 I can it is the best Smash Bros game so far and Sakurai always wants to make look like it is the last game. I don't really care about the whether the gameplay is too fast or not, you will get used to it anyway.

Love the game, love Sakurai.

 

[Morbi]

I am not sure how this interview is any different than the plethora of other interviews where he denounces the competitive aspects of the games and claims to achieve a "balance" by catering to the casual audience. Perhaps I missed something?! Sure, he has a right to do that since it is his franchise and whatnot, but I am not sure I understand why the title was phrased the way it was. Unless you mean in the very literal sense that he is in touch with is own game. I would hope that is the case, and I doubt such an assertion needs proving either.

 

[DairunCates]

This post is very ironic considering Sakurai intentionally made Brawl as far from Melee as possible and guess what happened? It split the community.

Needless to say your stance holds no more weight than mine does; arguably less considering Brawl being so vastly different from Melee is what led to its eventual downfall. Brawl never would have received nearly as much scrutiny as it did if the development team made an honest effort to make it more similar to Melee instead of intentionally axing everything that competitive players loved about it.

1. Just because the execution of an idea initially failed doesn't mean that it's not a sound principle.

2. The "Downfall" of Brawl arguably had more problems, including some community ones than just "not being enough like Melee". Downfall being in quotes because Brawl still did have a tournament scene for years until Project M came out. Most games can't claim that. Just because it didn't get as popular as Melee doesn't mean it was a complete abject failure. It was just as much of a failure as a competitive game as Melee was at being "accessible to casuals". There's problems with it, but it's not entirely true.

3. Obviously this game IS more like Melee than Brawl was. So, there is SOME more speed in it. Going all the way to Melee is like arguing that Melee didn't have problems though.

4. Resting on your laurels is a poor way to evolve a game series. "It worked for melee" isn't gonna work as an argument if the other elements that have been added don't match up with it. As such, from what we've seen, a melee level speed wouldn't match up with the heavier mind games aspect that seems to be coming up from this version. That's why people have been pointing out other games that work with different design ethos, because some of those seems to have a few things in common with this newer smash, and those have been equally successful.

Edit:

I am not sure how this interview is any different than the plethora of other interviews where he denounces the competitive aspects of the games and claims to achieve a "balance" by catering to the casual audience. Perhaps I missed something?! Sure, he has a right to do that since it is his franchise and whatnot, but I am not sure I understand why the title was phrased the way it was. Unless you mean in the very literal sense that he is in touch with is own game. I would hope that is the case, and I doubt such an assertion needs proving either.

It's primarily this bit...

The most important thing is that the game have breadth and depth, since we would like them to be popular with both novices and hardcore gamers. We think that people who aren’t so good at turning the tables and coming back from behind can still get enjoyment out of the [new] game, even if they turn off items and Smash Balls.

Although the pace of the game had to be lowered compared to Melee in order to achieve this balance, we have managed to keep the dynamism because we didn’t have to gear towards novice players like we did with Brawl. In fact, we recreated all characters almost from scratch. Also, I feel on a personal level that this game is more interesting than the three previous games in the series.

...combined with some other comments in other interviews with him and Nintendo reps. The general design ethos here seems to be less technical skill, but more reading and knowledge skill without being completely defensive like Brawl. A lot of people are excited by this proposition. It's obviously not as exciting for the more twitchy tournament players, but that doesn't cover the entirety of hardcore/competitive gamers as has been pointed out in the thread.

 

[pickle962]

I am not sure how this interview is any different than the plethora of other interviews where he denounces the competitive aspects of the games and claims to achieve a "balance" by catering to the casual audience. Perhaps I missed something?! Sure, he has a right to do that since it is his franchise and whatnot, but I am not sure I understand why the title was phrased the way it was. Unless you mean in the very literal sense that he is in touch with is own game. I would hope that is the case, and I doubt such an assertion needs proving either.

Ain't nothing wrong with extending an olive branch to new players who would otherwise suck at fighting games so long as you don't give the shaft to your hardcore fanbase *cough* BRAWL *cough* which from the looks of 4, Sakurai clearly ISN'T doing this time around as all the scrappy mechanics that anchored Brawl are gone, a stronger effort has been made at balancing the roster as much as physically possible (Bowser kicking ass and taking names at San Diego Comic Con anybody? The guy's usually been awful before and its nice to see that heavyweights will actually be a viable option in competitive play for once), and custom moves look to add another layer of competition provided we the community don't go BANNED which doesn't seem to be the case IIRC as most people here are willing to give custom moves sufficient time in the "fighting lab" so to speak until a proper verdict can be reached.

Maybe you did miss something as you said, but when I read the article, I got the strong impression that Sakurai means what he says when he rambles on about striking a balance between Melee and Brawl. Anywhom, do carry on good sir!

 

[Kevandre]

I'd like to clarify- I was being a jackass for no reason. Smashboards has taught me that not all tourney players are bad. It's more the people I met at the one tournament I went to as well as some old friends who were cool usually, but not so much when it came to playing Melee. Looked down upon for not wavedashing, etc. It put an incredibly bad taste in my mouth in regards to the competitive community.

Didn't mean any ad-hominem or disrespect to anyone here.

*facepalm*

1. Why are you on here if you despise the competitive crowd of smash bros which was built from people who loved Melee to death during its heyday? (Ironically, some of those same competitive folks I'm willing to bet love playing with items on wacky stages for ****s and giggles every now and again)

2. The only competitive smash player I can think of off the top of my head who sometimes rubs others the wrong way is Mew2King, but even then, the guy is autistic as they come, so he doesn't always mean what he says most of the time anyway!

3. Not to be mean, but I'm glad the ignore button exists as ad hominem comments like yours infuriate me to no end!

On Topic: I just read the comment section of said article and wow...some people just don't want to give 4 a shot despite the game cutting out all the junk that weighed Brawl down as well as appealing quite a bit to us hardcore fans this time rather than giving us the shaft again! As long as you don't ignore the hardcore audience and their needs (of which Sakurai has seemingly addressed about every one of them), there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving a helping hand to new players who usually aren't very good at fighting games.

This post is so ironic it hurts.

In all seriousness if you have nothing to add except for ad-hominem why bother posting at all? I'll never understand why some always have to make discussions like these so personal...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Nothing good ever comes from these topics. That's a good Sakurai interview, but the most interesting point seems to have been largely missed. The important point here was less that Smash 4 is in-between Melee and Brawl in terms of speed (though it is) but rather that it's more dynamic than either of them, at least in Sakurai's likely very informed judgment. This basically means that smash 4 will have very high gameplay variety which, in the long run, is a far greater predictor of competitive depth than game speed.

Sakurai is also trying to explain how important accessibility really is and how he feels like the biggest problem with most fighting games is that they aren't accessible and how he doesn't want that for smash, and honestly, if you're like me and want to be competitive with smash which is a fighting game, the question of why Street Fighter (the biggest fighter) is so tiny community wise compared to, say, League of Legends is one very much worth asking. I've always felt it's because of accessibility; to play Street Fighter in a way that's actually fun, you pretty much need to spend dozens of hours learning traditional fighting game controls and probably grinding out some basic combos. The game is great once you do that, but you lose over 90% of your potential players before that point even arrives. Smash is the fighter that is different, and Sakurai justifiably wants to emphasize that appeal which in the long run actually helps us a lot given that more players means bigger tournaments, more stream viewers, a more thoroughly explored metagame, etc..

This is before we get into the inevitable Melee vs Brawl stuff which really just gives me a headache at this point. I don't really expect people who didn't play Brawl competitively to understand what was up with the game, but I would just ask for the basic level of mutal respect from those who didn't not to talk as though they know things they don't. Honestly we should just be focusing on smash 4 now so, please, can we leave Brawl alone for now and forever? It wants to rest in peace.

My expectations for a productive discussion here are low, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised?

 

[The Real Gamer]

1. Just because the execution of an idea initially failed doesn't mean that it's not a sound principle.

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that it still failed. Claiming that a "Melee 2.0" (which isn't what anyone is asking for btw) would split the community is a poor argument since this is exactly what Brawl did.

2. The "Downfall" of Brawl arguably had more problems, including some community ones than just "not being enough like Melee". Downfall being in quotes because Brawl still did have a tournament scene for years until Project M came out. Most games can't claim that. Just because it didn't get as popular as Melee doesn't mean it was a complete abject failure. It was just as much of a failure as a competitive game as Melee was at being "accessible to casuals". There's problems with it, but it's not entirely true.

The only reason Brawl was able to even have a thriving competitive community for a while was BECAUSE of Melee, not in spite of it. Without Melee's success as a competitive fighter Brawl's glory days never would have lasted as long as it did. In my opinion when you factor in the split of the community, the longevity of the game when compared to Melee, and the overall design philosophy behind the game I would consider Brawl a failure as far as competitive Smash Bros goes. Of course my interpretation of failure isn't going to be the same as yours or anyone else's. That's subjective.

Also since when was Melee considered a failure at appealing to casuals? Last time I checked the game was just as much of a hit to casuals as it was for the competitive community, until Brawl came out of course.

3. Obviously this game IS more like Melee than Brawl was. So, there is SOME more speed in it. Going all the way to Melee is like arguing that Melee didn't have problems though.

I never stated otherwise.

4. Resting on your laurels is a poor way to evolve a game series. "It worked for melee" isn't gonna work as an argument if the other elements that have been added don't match up with it. As such, from what we've seen, a melee level speed wouldn't match up with the heavier mind games aspect that seems to be coming up from this version. That's why people have been pointing out other games that work with different design ethos, because some of those seems to have a few things in common with this newer smash, and those have been equally successful.

Where did I ever say the game should be at Melee's speed? You're attacking a straw man.

 

[mario123007]

Nothing good ever comes from these topics. That's a good Sakurai interview, but the most interesting point seems to have been largely missed. The important point here was less that Smash 4 is in-between Melee and Brawl in terms of speed (though it is) but rather that it's more dynamic than either of them, at least in Sakurai's likely very informed judgment. This basically means that smash 4 will have very high gameplay variety which, in the long run, is a far greater predictor of competitive depth than game speed.

Sakurai is also trying to explain how important accessibility really is and how he feels like the biggest problem with most fighting games is that they aren't accessible and how he doesn't want that for smash, and honestly, if you're like me and want to be competitive with smash which is a fighting game, the question of why Street Fighter (the biggest fighter) is so tiny community wise compared to, say, League of Legends is one very much worth asking. I've always felt it's because of accessibility; to play Street Fighter in a way that's actually fun, you pretty much need to spend dozens of hours learning traditional fighting game controls and probably grinding out some basic combos. The game is great once you do that, but you lose over 90% of your potential players before that point even arrives. Smash is the fighter that is different, and Sakurai justifiably wants to emphasize that appeal which in the long run actually helps us a lot given that more players means bigger tournaments, more stream viewers, a more thoroughly explored metagame, etc..

This is before we get into the inevitable Melee vs Brawl stuff which really just gives me a headache at this point. I don't really expect people who didn't play Brawl competitively to understand what was up with the game, but I would just ask for the basic level of mutal respect from those who didn't not to talk as though they know things they don't. Honestly we should just be focusing on smash 4 now so, please, can we leave Brawl alone for now and forever? It wants to rest in peace.

My expectations for a productive discussion here are low, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised?

Nwadays the thing that I hate in the Internet is leaks, the new smash bros should nearly a secret, and cool, but all ruined by leaks, however, Sakrai is struggle to make this game more attractive for us even though with leaks and many negative sides around him. That's what I think Sakurai is really a game design master.

 

[SmasherP83]

Nwadays the thing that I hate in the Internet is leaks, the new smash bros should nearly a secret, and cool, but all ruined by leaks, however, Sakrai is struggle to make this game more attractive for us even though with leaks and many negative sides around him. That's what I think Sakurai is really a game design master.

to me Sakurai (Jesus) Miyamoto (God)

But in all seriousness I hate leaks. It honestly ruined the hype for the Shulk trailer which most of us probobly agree.

 

[Morbi]

Nothing good ever comes from these topics. That's a good Sakurai interview, but the most interesting point seems to have been largely missed. The important point here was less that Smash 4 is in-between Melee and Brawl in terms of speed (though it is) but rather that it's more dynamic than either of them, at least in Sakurai's likely very informed judgment. This basically means that smash 4 will have very high gameplay variety which, in the long run, is a far greater predictor of competitive depth than game speed.

Sakurai is also trying to explain how important accessibility really is and how he feels like the biggest problem with most fighting games is that they aren't accessible and how he doesn't want that for smash, and honestly, if you're like me and want to be competitive with smash which is a fighting game, the question of why Street Fighter (the biggest fighter) is so tiny community wise compared to, say, League of Legends is one very much worth asking. I've always felt it's because of accessibility; to play Street Fighter in a way that's actually fun, you pretty much need to spend dozens of hours learning traditional fighting game controls and probably grinding out some basic combos. The game is great once you do that, but you lose over 90% of your potential players before that point even arrives. Smash is the fighter that is different, and Sakurai justifiably wants to emphasize that appeal which in the long run actually helps us a lot given that more players means bigger tournaments, more stream viewers, a more thoroughly explored metagame, etc..

This is before we get into the inevitable Melee vs Brawl stuff which really just gives me a headache at this point. I don't really expect people who didn't play Brawl competitively to understand what was up with the game, but I would just ask for the basic level of mutal respect from those who didn't not to talk as though they know things they don't. Honestly we should just be focusing on smash 4 now so, please, can we leave Brawl alone for now and forever? It wants to rest in peace.

My expectations for a productive discussion here are low, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised?

Interesting perspective. I believe that you hit the nail on the head, Sakurai has been promoting the notion of "this is a balance between Melee and Brawl" for over a year. I highly doubt that that was the point of this article. Your approach is much more accurate in my not so humble opinion. Sakurai has addressed accessibility before, but I construed this article as a design philosophy article rather than a "what Smash 4 is" article.

And with that, I agree. I am a huge fighting game fan, but I do not play a lot of them for extended periods of time as you are required to put in so much time, effort, and devotion. In that way, I am glad that Sakurai comprehends that the FGC could use a game that is easy to pick up and learn. The game that is easy to pick up and learn can still be competitive with fundamental fighting game elements present in the game. In that way, players that lose a lot can still have fun and not drop the game, but players that enjoy competitive can actually consistently win against depending on their skill-level, which will inherently ensure that they do not drop the game either. Really, if you boil it down, I believe that Sakurai wants the game to maintain a sense of longevity to both communities. Brawl might have split the community, but I genuinely believe that he is attempting to rectify that. Or at least that is what I got from it when I applied your perspective.

 

[pickle962]

Nothing good ever comes from these topics. That's a good Sakurai interview, but the most interesting point seems to have been largely missed. The important point here was less that Smash 4 is in-between Melee and Brawl in terms of speed (though it is) but rather that it's more dynamic than either of them, at least in Sakurai's likely very informed judgment. This basically means that smash 4 will have very high gameplay variety which, in the long run, is a far greater predictor of competitive depth than game speed.

Sakurai is also trying to explain how important accessibility really is and how he feels like the biggest problem with most fighting games is that they aren't accessible and how he doesn't want that for smash, and honestly, if you're like me and want to be competitive with smash which is a fighting game, the question of why Street Fighter (the biggest fighter) is so tiny community wise compared to, say, League of Legends is one very much worth asking. I've always felt it's because of accessibility; to play Street Fighter in a way that's actually fun, you pretty much need to spend dozens of hours learning traditional fighting game controls and probably grinding out some basic combos. The game is great once you do that, but you lose over 90% of your potential players before that point even arrives. Smash is the fighter that is different, and Sakurai justifiably wants to emphasize that appeal which in the long run actually helps us a lot given that more players means bigger tournaments, more stream viewers, a more thoroughly explored metagame, etc..

This is before we get into the inevitable Melee vs Brawl stuff which really just gives me a headache at this point. I don't really expect people who didn't play Brawl competitively to understand what was up with the game, but I would just ask for the basic level of mutal respect from those who didn't not to talk as though they know things they don't. Honestly we should just be focusing on smash 4 now so, please, can we leave Brawl alone for now and forever? It wants to rest in peace.

My expectations for a productive discussion here are low, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised?

Another wonderful well thought out post from the user worthy of the "Amazing" in his username. I agree with you on Street Fighter and its high entry level as I recently got a copy of the 2012 arcade edition for a cool 20 dollars plus tax and while it is a fun game to play, I admit I've gotten torn up on the game's Online mode more often than not. I've occasionally won a round or two, but never the match and that infuriates a new player like me more than anything. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten good at throwing out hadokens, Juri's leg energy projectile things, etc but I might as well put a "kick me, im a scrub" sign over my back every time I get online on SSF4: Arcade Edition. If it's not opponents I have no chance against, its my brain going "uhhhh" like an idiot when I get into the heat of a round so to speak and suddenly I can't do X attack to save my life even though I've practiced it to the point of boredom in training mode.

@ mario123007 Agreed. Were it not for the recent 4chan leaks, Shulk would've been a bit more of a surprise as in Mega Man esque surprise in the fact that while the blue robot was highly requested following Sonic the Hedgehog, him joining the battle was still a hype worthy moment since we didn't know for certain if MegaMan actually was going to be in smash 4's roster or not compared to Shulk where the surprise was tainted by those annoying leaks we recently had.

 

[Saikyoshi]

...why am I not reassured?

 

[mario123007]

to me Sakurai (Jesus) Miyamoto (God)

But in all seriousness I hate leaks. It honestly ruined the hype for the Shulk trailer which most of us probobly agree.

And if this hurts your feeling then I am sorry, I really don't want Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt Dog in Smash.
Hey let's talk about this in the leak thread, not here.
Yeah, Sakrai is gives us surprises and Miyamoto he is a genius.

 

[SmasherP83]

Another wonderful well thought out post from the user worthy of the "Amazing" in his username. I agree with you on Street Fighter and its high entry level as I recently got a copy of the 2012 arcade edition for a cool 20 dollars plus tax and while it is a fun game to play, I admit I've gotten torn up on the game's Online mode more often than not. I've occasionally won a round or two, but never the match and that infuriates a new player like me more than anything. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten good at throwing out hadokens, Juri's leg energy projectile things, etc but I might as well put a "kick me, im a scrub" sign over my back every time I get online on SSF4: Arcade Edition. If it's not opponents I have no chance against, its my brain going "uhhhh" like an idiot when I get into the heat of a round so to speak and suddenly I can't do X attack to save my life even though I've practiced it to the point of boredom in training mode.

@ mario123007 Agreed. Were it not for the recent 4chan leaks, Shulk would've been a bit more of a surprise as in Mega Man esque surprise in the fact that while the blue robot was highly requested following Sonic the Hedgehog, him joining the battle was still a hype worthy moment since we didn't know for certain if MegaMan actually was going to be in smash 4's roster or not compared to Shulk where the surprise was tainted by those annoying leaks we recently had.

I feel the exact same way in Marvel vs Capcom 2. No matter how hard and much I train I'll still my butt kicked either way. Anyways like I said before I don't expect anymore veterans to be surprising or excited to be revealed know thanks to the leak....Honestly I wish they didn't leak anything, would've liked the Shulk reveal more than if it wasn't leaked.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Just to clarify I hope people aren't misinterpreting my overall disappointment with Brawl as hating on Smash 4. Even though I am in the minority as a Melee enthusiast around these parts I have high expectations for the game and like I have stated earlier I am just glad that Sakurai is aiming to appeal to all gaming demographics this time around as opposed to just one.

More than anything I just want to see the competitive community for this game thrive and be the best it can be.

 

[DairunCates]

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that it still failed. Claiming that a "Melee 2.0" (which isn't what anyone is asking for btw) would split the community is a poor argument since this is exactly what Brawl did.

That actually doesn't follow. Just because one thing proves true does not mean the opposite must be false. I've never argued that Brawl DIDN'T split the community in some ways, but that doesn't necessarily prove that an extreme of the other side wouldn't do the same or worse. My point has been primarily that just because Brawl made some mistakes doesn't mean that a more melee heavy ethos is actually a good idea for this specific game.

The only reason Brawl was able to even have a thriving competitive community for a while was BECAUSE of Melee, not in spite of it. Without Melee's success as a competitive fighter Brawl's glory days never would have lasted as long as it did. In my opinion when you factor in the split of the community, the longevity of the game when compared to Melee, and the overall design philosophy behind the game I would consider Brawl a failure as far as competitive Smash Bros goes. Of course my interpretation of failure isn't going to be the same as yours or anyone else's. That's subjective.

Yeah. Exactly. My point was that the interpretation of Brawl being an abject failure is mostly subjective and based entirely on a comparison to Melee's popularity. Popularity doesn't always equal success or proper design principle though.

Also since when was Melee considered a failure at appealing to casuals? Last time I checked the game was just as much of a hit to casuals as it was for the competitive community, until Brawl came out of course.

That was in quotes for a reason. I was comparing the term of brawl being a "failure" to some people to melee being a "completely inaccessible to casuals" for other people. Both have solid arguments, but they're gross over-exaggerations, in my opinion.

Where did I ever say the game should be at Melee's speed? You're attacking a straw man.

Once again, if this isn't what you meant, I think this is just a misinterpretation of some of your wording. You gave a very aggressive stance of comparing melee's speed and its necessity for success in the new game. If you weren't asking for Smash 4 to be as fast and admit that Smash 4 is already faster and a good balance, I'm not sure why you were bringing it up to begin with.

If I did misunderstand that point though, I apologize. I do agree that I think the inbetween route we're getting is probably the best for most of these decisions, and I'm excited to see where it goes.

 

[Geizt]

A lot (not all) of the negative statements towards Smash4 just sound like people upset they'll have to learn and be a beginner at a new smash game. Criticism leads to improvement when it's constructive. But equating Smash4 to rock, paper, scissors just because some dynamics were taken out is very insulting to everyone who has worked on it.

 

[Thor]

Honestly we should just be focusing on smash 4 now so, please, can we leave Brawl alone for now and forever? It wants to rest in peace.

I liked the entirety of your post except for this sentence, because I don't want to leave Brawl alone, I want to dig it out and play it with friends who enjoy it like I do, whether because we enjoy all the smash games or because they don't have a Wii U/3DS. I know people who play multiple smash games and mix it up at any one time because of who they are with, and when I'm around we usually do some sort of split, because we enjoy them all. So while I won't be trying to argue with people in here about various games, I'm not going to leave Brawl alone, because I want to keep enjoying the game and playing it with other skilled Brawl players [and maybe get a real Brawl community going where I am].

Just to clarify I hope people aren't misinterpreting my overall disappointment with Brawl as hating on Smash 4. Even though I am in the minority as a Melee enthusiast around these parts I have high expectations for the game and like I have stated earlier I am just glad that Sakurai is aiming to appeal to all gaming demographics this time around as opposed to just one.

More than anything I just want to see the competitive community for this game thrive and be the best it can be.

I'm a Melee enthusiast too - I just happen to also be a Brawl enthusiast (and also play Brawl-, 64, and PM, though I don't usually argue much on the boards about those).

Brawl would have been a great model for a competitive smash experience if it didn't have the hitstun coding error and tripping, and by great I mean pretty much flawless - very few tech skill barriers, some important ATs, reasonable but not absurd combo potential, and a good deal of top tier character variety (no momentum cancelling would help to make MK functionally importantly lighter, since he can momentum cancel very well). As it was, it's still a very enjoyable game in my opinion, but I'm not gonna try to convince you of that [or my previous statement], just say that even as people may seem to heavily hope for/hype/care about Smash 4, it doesn't mean they aren't enthusiastic about the other games.

I agree with the last sentiment, though we doubtless would go about it somewhat differently if we could control what was and wasn't in the game. To each their own.

A lot (not all) of the negative statements towards Smash4 just sound like people upset they'll have to learn and be a beginner at a new smash game. Criticism leads to improvement when it's constructive. But equating Smash4 to rock, paper, scissors just because some dynamics were taken out is very insulting to everyone who has worked on it.

I don't know how many people I've seen/met who hate Brawl because they claim it takes "no skill", is "Too slow", or whatever, then I overpower them in like 2 minutes 30 seconds because they are unwilling to learn the game as Brawl, not as "something that they wish was Melee." I hope that people can overcome this sort of negative labelling and admit Smash 4 =/= Melee but still is [or rather, in all likelihood will be] a great game for competitive people and more casual players alike [All Smash games so far have done this in my opinion, so I guess take it with a grain of salt...].

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People said the Nintendo video had lower landing than the demo.

does this look to be true? If so Nintendo and Sakurai listened to feedback.

 

[DairunCates]

People said the Nintendo video had lower landing than the demo.

does this look to be true? If so Nintendo and Sakurai listened to feedback.

We'll hopefully find out in about an hour if Nintendo lets people comment on the closed media event. Gamexplain confirmed on a video that the event WAS this afternoon.

 

[RanserSSF4]

We'll hopefully find out in about an hour if Nintendo lets people comment on the closed media event. Gamexplain confirmed on a video that the event WAS this afternoon.

I am so interested in hearing about this since the only problem I personally saw in the E3 demo is landing lag on some air attacks.

 

[DairunCates]

I am so interested in hearing about this since the only problem I personally saw in the E3 demo is landing lag on some air attacks.

Sadly, it turns out there WAS an embargo on the press event. So, no one can talk about it until a certain period of time.

On the bright side, this probably means 2 things...
1. Embargos are usually pointless unless they only last a couple of days. So, it's probably for some announcement that Nintendo wants to make later during PAX (there's nothing really big otherwise coming up).
2. If there's an embargo, there's most likely something really cool to discuss. So, whatever might get revealed is at least likely to be interesting.

It is also worth mentioning that people seem to think the landing lag looked reduced in the Shulk trailer. This could either be specific to characters (Samus apparently already has super low landing lag) or could a legitimate reduction.

 

[KokiriKory]

Nice read, thanks for sharing!

 

[StarLight42]

Can somebody give me a heads up on what this means?

If it means it will be slow and clunky like Brawl, what a damn shame, I wish I could stop Sakurai from ruining the potentially best Smash game ever if that is the idea.

 

[Renji64]

I heard they can't talk about the final build of smash yet. But time will tell i'm just gonna wait and see now.

 

[DairunCates]

Can somebody give me a heads up on what this means?

If it means it will be slow and clunky like Brawl, what a damn shame, I wish I could stop Sakurai from ruining the potentially best Smash game ever if that is the idea.

People have already said the E3 build was faster while some characters were still a bit floaty. That's already a decent change, and that was a beta build. Don't worry. This one's gonna be significantly different.

 

[StarLight42]

I heard they can't talk about the final build of smash yet. But time will tell i'm just gonna wait and see now.

Source please.

 

[DairunCates]

Source please.

It's hard to have one for why people can't talk about it. Embargos aren't exactly publicly announced by Nintendo. Gamexplain DID confirm there was an embargo though. They also did say that they heard they would be playing a new build of Smash Bros, and it's rare for a private media event to happen if there's not something big to announce. That's where people are getting this info.

Edit: The comment about gameplay, however, was taken from people noticing a speed increase from the Nintendo Direct that got released in Japan this morning and the several commercial videos they added.

 

[Johnknight1]

Wait so we're expecting more from Sakurai when he's copying and pasting the negative comments ONLY TOWARDS COMPETITIVE PLAYERS AND PLAY (not anything else) that he said in Brawl=???

Remind me why people expect a game most competitive smashers will find enjoyable when most did not find Brawl enjoyable=???

(hence why the game is only a "big deal" at about 5 events tops this year, whereas Melee and Project M are a "big deal" on a weekly basis)

===

If Sakurai wanted to make a good statement with good PR, he should just say "everyone will enjoy it" to be simple, or go into deep depth about how "precise movement in Melee required a ton of technical skill and focus" and "Brawl was campy and campy isn't what we intend". Not these weak blanket statements that come across as negative statements about the competitive players.

Do yourself a favor guys and watch this:

Judging by how Brawl was specifically made to be the anti-competitive smash game (tripping, ladder climbing, the slow and floaty gameplay, and the focus on single-player being the #1 focus), I can't help but notice these anti-competitive play bias by Sakurai. Brawl was simply made to not be fun for competitive smashers, and mostly it wasn't, hence why the Brawl scene stopped growing whereas Melee's and 64's scenes continue to grow (even if 64 is just a "big deal" at a few select events).

Sorry guys, but Milktea > Samurai.

 

[Mensrea]

I'll never agree with his thinking. I don't like the logic. Melee was a fantastic casual game, and the higher tech stuff didn't ruin any casual players fun.

That being said, I'm still excited for Smash 4. I'll play it a ton with friends and what not. I just had to learn to not expect another game with the caliber gameplay of melee. Please don't interpret that as talking down to Smash 4. I'm not saying the game will be bad, or anything of the sort, it's just I have come to accept that Melee was a beautiful accident. Likely to never happen again, but that's ok. Would I be on board for a game as deep and dynamic as melee? Of course, but it won't happen, so why hope?

Sakurai prefers to cater to beginners, and that's totally his choice. If they get to the skill ceiling of 4, they can always graduate to melee for some higher level play. If not, they can keep enjoying 4. It's not ideal, but it's fine.

 

[stfunerds]

The only thing I am worried about is Online Gameplay. Brawl was plagued by lag and limited features. Street Fighter 4 had great online play-in terms of being lag-free and the user options. Now in 2014, Mario Kart 8 has a decent online set-up. No lag and you can bring a friend online. I am hoping Smash 4 goes even further with online options. But so long as me and friend can play together from one Wii u and go online, we will be happy campers.

 

[Johnknight1]

That's why Melee is arguably not as good a party game and not as fun for casuals as Brawl is and the new games are intended to be. Because of the way it's designed Melee's got some crazy skill gaps going on for low level play, which decreases the chances you'll be playing people in at your skill level, and generally the higher the gap in skill is, the less fun everyone is going to have.

Brawl has a bigger skill gap than Melee, because Brawl has so much micro knowledge that you have to know to even keep a match close. You had to know so much more things in Brawl to even compete, namely chain grabs, combos, hitstun manipulation, edge hogging, planking, stalling, and general abuse of Brawl's physics and the unintended features of it.

Brawl also requires a lot more conditioning than Melee in that casual players naturally YOLO and go super offensive, and Brawl is all about camping and poking, and it requires a ton of conditioning to "play as lame as possible" as multiple former top Brawl players used to tell me (and I refused to adapt to).

===

Besides all that, Smash is so much easier to pick up than any other fighting game. You don't need to know button combinations for special attacks. You just push A or B, possibly in one of four directions, or push L/R to shield, Y/X/up on the control stick to jump, or Z/L or R+A to grab.

It's all very simple. The movement being essentially a refined version of Super Mario Bros., one of the most simple but deep games ever and the most played game ever, makes it one of the most accessible games possible. It also naturally is competitive since it doesn't take away control of the character from the player (sans random tripping).

Also....you're saying that people should be able just learn to have fun regardless of the skill gap but...you don't expect yourself to learn to have more fun regardless of the movement options.

Why would that skill gap matter to people if they don't face competitive players=???

That's a m00t point. Me being able to land a super crazy combo doesn't make the game automatically less fun for someone completely unaware of these kind of combos.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm just saying that you shouldn't forget that your opinion isn't everyone's opinion.

Well duh. Each person only speaks for themselves. Children can understand that (but Fox News can't).

 

[Raijinken]

Interpret everything as you will, this sounded to me like Sakurai was saying:

"Melee was harsh on beginners, so we tried to fix that. But we over-fixed it, and Brawl was "harsh" on competitive players. So now we're trying to balance the two approaches to get the widest possible appeal. This keeps it accessible for newcomers and makes it sufficiently non-technical for them to improve. For the competitive crowd, to try to make up for it not being Melee, we're adding in other ways for the game to be deep and have a worthwhile skill ceiling, like the character dynamics, customizations, stage options, and so on. We even partially redesigned characters entirely, instead of just porting them into new physics and changing a special move or two. We're treating this as a new game that everyone could play, not as Brawl 2 or Melee 2 or Smash64 2. I (Sakurai) think it's great, and believe that if everyone gives it a shot, instead of dismissing it, they will think it's great, too."

Of course, that could just be my bias. I've enjoyed every single Smash Bros game for different reasons (64 for novelty at the time, Melee for speed and introducing me to Fire Emblem, Brawl for being non-technical enough for me to be able to improve at and help others improve at visibly, and even the various mods are all enjoyable for bringing a different take on the same game), and everything I've seen has indicated that 4 will fix the issues of past games (though what's to say it won't make its own), and consequently, be the best Smash game yet.

to me Sakurai (Jesus) Miyamoto (God)
But in all seriousness I hate leaks. It honestly ruined the hype for the Shulk trailer which most of us probobly agree.

I still found that trailer hype as mess. Then again, I like knowing what happens, I don't care how I find out. Surprise doesn't affect my enjoyment of an event. I guess most people really can't, but I suggest learning to appreciate things for their execution over their premise, as no leak can spoil the execution (unless it contains the whole thing, which, well, nothing lost there).

 

[Big-Cat]

Your interpretation is great, @ Raijinken .

 

[Jaedrik]

Or say things like "but casuals enjoyed Melee too!" and miss the point but you really can't argue with his logic.

Sir, I do believe you are the one missing the point.
Sakurai's logic is flawed.
He supposes a false dichotomy of casual vs hardcore, as do many others in the video games industry and communities.

Thankfully, Smash Bros. is not an MMO with world pvp, so we can segregate the casuals and hardcore players very easily. What the casual doesn't know cannot possibly hurt them, and even if they do know then why should they improve themselves in that way if they have no desire to be wrapped up in the mechanics moreso? Smash is intuitive at its base level. It is very easy to learn, the only difference between Melee and Brawl is that Melee was far harder to master. Sakurai has nothing to lose by adding advanced techniques such as wavedashing or dash-dancing or shine canceling, or by reverting many of the changes to the physics engine from Melee to Brawl, he has nothing to lose, save the hardcore market, provided he keep the complexity out of the way of casuals. This is why I believe hidden skill based matchmaking is the only route that ought to exist, and it does if I'm not mistaken.

This is a fact, this is truth, and this is in accord with rightly ordered game design.

 

[Raijinken]

even if they do know then why should they improve themselves in that way if they have no desire to be wrapped up in the mechanics moreso? I really don't understand this sort of argument, especially because Smash is so intuitive at its base level. It is very easy to learn, the only difference between Melee and Brawl is that Melee was far harder to master.

The sole issue I have with Melee (which I loved and spent many many hours playing, just like the rest of the series) is that if a casual player wishes to become competitive, they face a very large cliff of minimum technical skill they must climb before standing a chance. No mastery of the basics will grant access to competitive skill, you must become adept at the advanced techniques to stand a faint chance. That's what Sakurai has addressed by making the game less technical, and aye, even by making the game slower (longer execution windows make things easier to do). While Brawl's masterable techniques and options didn't lead to as many diverse options or aggressive play as mastering Melee's did, they were more manageable, and thus it was easier to become decent at Brawl (but no easier to haphazardly beat a better player). Smash 4 is aiming to hit between those, offering a high skill ceiling through character mechanics and some less-technical-more-manageable advanced techniques, while offering a low skill floor with a moderate game pace and very few particularly tricky mechanics (Luma being the notable exception, and hopefully offering great reward in exchange).

 

[Johnknight1]

Interpret everything as you will, this sounded to me like Sakurai was saying:

"Melee was harsh on beginners, so we tried to fix that. But we over-fixed it, and Brawl was "harsh" on competitive players. So now we're trying to balance the two approaches to get the widest possible appeal. This keeps it accessible for newcomers and makes it sufficiently non-technical for them to improve.

If Sakurai were trying to say that, why didn't he just say that=???

Why keep going on and on and on and on and on about not wanting the game to be about competitive play=???

Why not just say "competitive players who love lots of offense, ENJOY!" and "less serious players, enjoy!"

In fact, why hasn't he said that dating back to 2003 instead of having various incidents where he brought negative attention to the competitive scene.

 

[Raijinken]

If Sakurai were trying to say that, why didn't he just say that=???

Why keep going on and on and on and on and on about not wanting the game to be about competitive play=???

Why not just say "competitive players who love lots of offense, ENJOY!" and "less serious players, enjoy!"

In fact, why hasn't he said that dating back to 2003 instead of having various incidents where he brought negative attention to the competitive scene.

Not a clue, but the business world is a tricky place where it can be hard to say things bluntly. Especially speaking through a translator into a language and culture different from your own.

This, at least, looks to me like he's finally apologizing for trying to dumb down Smash too much. I don't see a point in trying to interpret hostility where there may no longer be any. If he more directly said "I wanted the game to be noncompetitive", that would be one thing, but making a game "not all about competitive play" simply means that there is more to a game than competing, which is what any non-niche designer should be about.