Project M v3.5 Blog on Tethers Released by PM Dev Team

[EmptySky00]

I really hope they go with option one. Honestly, claw shot re grab ledge stalls are just swag points mostly. Not really needed.

I also hope that Ivysaur and Olimar get the same treatment as ZSS. Link, TLink, Samus, and Lucas don't need to be able to tether more then once because they have up B's that act as third jump. Ivy, Olimar, and ZSS don't. With there only recovery option being a tether I see why they would make there limits 2.

Though now that I think about it ZSS does have down B to gain distance. Not sure if she can still wall jump or not.

All that aside I wonder what they have in store for the fly guys and floaters like Mewtwo, Pit, Meta Knight, and Peach? Mario, too. I really don't see why but he gets a lot of complaints for some reason... :/

EDIT: Now that I think about it, kinda seems like people with GREAT tethers (Samus, Lucas, Ivy) ruined for people with decent....and trash tethers. (Link being decent, TLink being trash)

So yeah, THANKS FOR GETTING EVERYONE SO SALTY AND RUINING IT FOR THE REST OF US!

....messed up part is Samus has great recovery not even including a tether option. >.>

No they are not lol. They refresh invincibility.

And Mario... God how do people really not see it?

 

[Mr.Random]

Recoveries deserved to get nerfed and I'm glad they are getting nerfed. Some of the recoveries are brain dead and require little skill.

 

[ghandi32]

So happy about this. Z tethers are so strong right now because of the possible mix ups. Many characters can cancel their tethers into a move that leaves you at a disadvantage. Up b tethers are simpler because that is their only move to get back on.

And to those saying this is a nerf that will leave tether characters useless, look at melee samus. You just need to be more cautious about how you recover.

 

[iHook]

Just another step on the staircase that Ivysaur has been tumbling down since 2.5

I personally like the idea of making all tethers reel in on contact. That way the options are cut down, and punishes are more likely.

 

[NeffJeff95]

Now I'm getting into the competitive scene, but can someone simplify how tethers will be changed?

 

[Satan-]

LOL I though Warchamp said they had no plans for a version name yet on JapanTime. Well I guess he lied lol.

You do realize the version name was revealed in the last blog post 5 days ago...

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

No they are not lol. They refresh invincibility.

And Mario... God how do people really not see it?

So does tap down fast fall insta jump sweet spot, though I will admit that a tether re grab might be safer/faster. :/

I don't know, bro... I just don't see wall jumping out of Up B as that huge. It's not like he has JET PACK ARMOR *COUGH*DEEPKONG*COUGH*

On a serious note, so what the guy can stall with a cape, do a little tornado, and wall jump? I think the cape stall is fine because there are a few characters that can slow falling and wall jumping out of Up B just makes him predictable. Only thing I'll agree on being janky is Mario's magic Up B glove that sweet spot ledges in a ten meter radius.

Now that's suspect...

 

[XMiggzX]

Wow this is looking pretty good, Good Job PMBR

 

[DarkDeity15]

Whelp, Link just got nerfed. But why not just add Melee teathering to make teather recoveries more skill-based? #feelingsalty

 

[proxibomb]

Not bad. All we need now to make Project M perfect is adding Pichu as a character.

I'm being serious.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Oh. A'ight.

 

[Daftatt]

Note to self: Do not update Project M past 3.02

Lol, then have fun playing with absolutely no one come 3.5

"Hey guys, want to play P:M?"
"Definitely! ... Oh, dude ,why don't you have 3.5?"
"Oh, yeah they balanced some game mechanics and I was already dependent on abusing the status quo and am unable to adapt to minor alterations in playstyle, so I refuse to play the updated version"
"... Well bye then."

"Wait Don't Go!! Oh darn, Daftatt was right all along I suppose"

 

[Toxicroaker]

Here is something that @cmart (a PMBR member) posted on the Bowser forums when 3.0 just came out that I immagine would also directly apply here.

I don't know how many of you guys came from Melee Bowser, but PM's fortress hogging was a joke - and I don't regret reverting it to something more reasonable for a moment. The current Fortress mechanics are still really easy, and allow fortress hogging in almost every situation. So why was it made harder? Because it never should have been that easy in the first place.

Now just let me switch up a few words here and there and... bingo.

I don't know how many of you guys came from Melee, but PM's tether mechanics were a joke - and we don't regret reverting it to something more reasonable for a moment. The current tether mechanics are still fairly easy, and allow tethering in most situations. So why was it made harder? Because it never should have been that easy in the first place.

This is more or less what I think about it. Especially the part in italics. And don't think that I am just saying this because it doesn't affect me. One of my mains are Ivysaur, and he will be hurt a lot. I back the PMBR 100% with this and look further to more updates on the next version of PM.

 

[TwicH]

Yeah I main Sonic so this isn't really an issue for me. Let's talk about character balancing now.

 

[Lupoor]

Rest in pieces Ivysaurs, there goes your only recovery option.

 

[EpicCupcakez]

So ZSS, Ivy, and Lucas are basically ****ed...

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

The only thing I can say I want changed is that Power Suit Samus' tether sometimes doesn't connect to a ledge and causes her to go into vulnerable mode and die. Although I think that's how it was in Melee, that gets annoying. I've heard the tether will connect if you tether when you're below the ledge, as well as that PMBR is working to fix this. That's the only input I have on the tether issue.

 

[Diabolical]

Here is something that @cmart I back the PMBR 100% with this and look further to more updates on the next version of PM.

Yo, it's PM Dev Team now, not PM Back Room

 

[Diabolical]

The only thing I can say I want changed is that Power Suit Samus' tether sometimes doesn't connect to a ledge and causes her to go into vulnerable mode and die. Although I think that's how it was in Meleee.

Tethers connected to walls in Melee.....

 

[SmashShadow]

I agree with the first part but 80 frames of lag is a bit much. With that kind of lag I expect to see Falcon Punch used as an edgegaurd.

 

[Gene]

Link just can't seem to catch a break in smash bros.

 

[Diabolical]

I agree with the first part but 80 frames of lag is a bit much. With that kind of lag I expect to see Falcon Punch used as an edgegaurd.

50 frames not 80

 

[Problem2]

I love how everyone said that edge guarders need to get better, but if anything, the only meta that was really improving was the tether recoverers were getting even smarter with tether recoveries. It reminds me of the early Brawl Metaknight debates and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Osennecho]

...Poor poor Lunchables... Now your recovery might actually truly be badish.

Also I feel like this is 2 big of a nerf to tethers which is saying a lot considering I dual main Puff and Roy. I don't exactly mind the nerf though if it's being done more as a test to see the extent of the effect it will have if they are open to buffing it slightly in the update following it.

Depending upon the ease of edge/platform canceling the forced hop (if that works) or it not existing to cancel the lag at all, that might be the only nerf needed imo as most tether characters have a poorer onstage game (Lucas aside....) so I was fine with 3 tethers, or 1 tether and their current getup.

It will be interesting to see just how big of an effect this will have.

 

[kaizo13]

people already complaining and they haven't even tried it yet lmao

this is exactly why the pmbr is so tight lipped about PM's progress. You guys make it difficult

let them work, they know what they're doing.

 

[J3f]

Whelp, Link just got nerfed. But why not just add Melee teathering to make teather recoveries more skill-based? #feelingsalty

It currently isn't possible to add Melee tethering because of engine limitations. Having tethers ignore edge hogging was a work around.

Soooo...... anyone else get the feeling that PM 3.5 will be 20XX edition. With recoveries being nerfed universally characters with dominant on stage gameplay and decent edge guarding will force out other top tiers who used to be able to compete because at least they could get back on stage.

To misquote the Incredibles "When everyone is bad at recovery no one is."

I also feel it's really ham handed to dull out nerfs to everyone at this point in PM development. Why not nerf the characters that need it, have some characters be able to regrab multiple times and others not be able too.

The One second forced recovery is just laughable, especially for anyone with out another recovery move.

I really hope the PM Dev Team doesn't go too far in making the game like Melee, because that means everyone's going to just Main Spacies all the time as the only viable characters.

 

[DarkDeity15]

It currently isn't possible to add Melee tethering because of engine limitations. Having tethers ignore edge hogging was a work around.

Soooo...... anyone else get the feeling that PM 3.5 will be 20XX edition. With recoveries being nerfed universally characters with dominant on stage gameplay and decent edge guarding will force out other top tiers who used to be able to compete because at least they could get back on stage.

To misquote the Incredibles "When everyone is bad at recovery no one is."

I also feel it's really ham handed to dull out nerfs to everyone at this point in PM development. Why not nerf the characters that need it, have some characters be able to regrab multiple times and others not be able too.

The One second forced recovery is just laughable, especially for anyone with out another recovery move.

I really hope the PM Dev Team doesn't go too far in making the game like Melee, because that means everyone's going to just Main Spacies all the time as the only viable characters.

The PMDT wouldn't allow that to happen. Especially since one of their main goals is to have a balanced game lol. And after thinking about it, I'm not too worried about Link. He still has AGT and Zair cancel up B, so his recovery is still good imo. I'll just miss the old ways of recovering and edgegarding with Link.

As for other characters with teather only recoveries, I'm sure the PMDT know what they're doing, so I doubt their recoveries would be overly nerfed/affected.

 

[Yeroc]

It's worth noting that the proposed Z-tether implementation is the closest it's ever been to Melee functionality, since you only ever got one use of a tether per airtime.

 

[SmashShadow]

50 frames not 80

50 frames of ledge hop animation + a possible 30 frames of landing lag

 

[Sfeet]

As a Ness main, this is a joyous moment for me - because we will finally have a shot at being even with (or better than) Lucas!!

 

[TreK]

I'd just like to point out quickly, that 80 frames is more than FOUR of Fox's short hops.

Well at least I have a secondary that already has a terrible recovery.

 

[Omni]

"Z-tethers only work once per air time."

I feel like this is too extreme of a nerf from the current amount of 3. It removes the ability to do regrabs with Link with is essential to having a balanced matchup against good edge-guarding characters like Marth.

I'd like to have at least 2 mid-air grabs so I can do one regrab.

In my day, you regrab by jumping off the ledge... and then regrabbing it.

 

[-_Face_-]

what's a forced ledgehop?

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

what's a forced ledgehop?

Example would be if Mario is holding the ledge an link does his Z in air, his tether will attach to the ledge. If Link reels into the ledge he will be forced to jump over Mario because Mario is holding the ledge.

 

[turtletank]

It's reeling in from tether when someone else is hogging the ledge. Instead of grabbing you are forced to jump onto the stage.

 

[666blaziken]

Ok, seriously, why are people complaining about this? Whenever I go on twitch, people complain all the time about how good the recoveries are in project M. While I feel like only 10 of the characters have recoveries are highly likely to get on stage personally being link, diddy kong, lucas, peach, pikachu, sonic, jigglypuff, ivysaur, zerosuit samus, and samus, While more recoveries could get nerfed, I am glad that tethers are getting nerfed. Why should the ledge hogger have to guess when the character detaches from the ledge, plus guess when the opponent does special attacks, plus guess when the opponent goes up? That's way too much to work with, and it guarantees a safe recovery. The idea of project M is that it is a balance of offensive and defensive strategies, while slightly favoring offensive strategies. With the current tethers, it is hard to punish people who are recovering because of the many defensive options available. While I would prefer it if they just made the tethers themselves a little shorter and compansate bad recoveries like samus's by giving them a momentum boost, I am happy at the creative approach that PMBR (why are people now calling them PMDT?) have thought up of, so that they can keep something that is still new and needs to be figured out.

 

[666blaziken]

So does tap down fast fall insta jump sweet spot, though I will admit that a tether re grab might be safer/faster. :/

I don't know, bro... I just don't see wall jumping out of Up B as that huge. It's not like he has JET PACK ARMOR *COUGH*DEEPKONG*COUGH*

On a serious note, so what the guy can stall with a cape, do a little tornado, and wall jump? I think the cape stall is fine because there are a few characters that can slow falling and wall jumping out of Up B just makes him predictable. Only thing I'll agree on being janky is Mario's magic Up B glove that sweet spot ledges in a ten meter radius.

Now that's suspect...

Mario's (or at least dr.mario's) ledge grab range is about the same size as in melee. If you want to counter mario, just grab the ledge and roll at the right time. His up b lags when he hits the ground, so take advantage of that.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

Ok, seriously, why are people complaining about this? Whenever I go on twitch, people complain all the time about how good the recoveries are in project M. While I feel like only 10 of the characters have recoveries are highly likely to get on stage personally being link, diddy kong, lucas, peach, pikachu, sonic, jigglypuff, ivysaur, zerosuit samus, and samus, While more recoveries could get nerfed, I am glad that tethers are getting nerfed. Why should the ledge hogger have to guess when the character detaches from the ledge, plus guess when the opponent does special attacks, plus guess when the opponent goes up? That's way too much to work with, and it guarantees a safe recovery. The idea of project M is that it is a balance of offensive and defensive strategies, while slightly favoring offensive strategies. With the current tethers, it is hard to punish people who are recovering because of the many defensive options available. While I would prefer it if they just made the tethers themselves a little shorter and compansate bad recoveries like samus's by giving them a momentum boost, I am happy at the creative approach that PMBR (why are people now calling them PMDT?) have thought up of, so that they can keep something that is still new and needs to be figured out.

*Melee players complained recovery was way to easy*

*Tether users (most of em) complain because most tether characters are around mid tier anyway and this will make them worse*

It's all a vicious circle and no will be pleased...ever. LoL

As a Link main, I don't care to much that I can't do 3 re grabs with z anymore. I still have AGT and UpB. I still think the lag additions to hop are kind of extreme and I feel for those who's only option is a tether.

On top of that, most complaints about recovery I ever heard involved characters who don't have a tether...but I'm guessing we'll hear about them soon.

And they changed their name to Project M Development Team.

 

[Vigilante]

All right, I'll chime in for a little bit and this is just my personal oppinion, so don't go taking my two cents for the PM dev team's:

Whenever I playtested Project M or brought it to public events it was clear that matches lacked some of the excitement that one would get from watching a good Melee match.

The main difference that made matches seem more longwinded was the general improved recovery. Characters would survive for a long time, and certain recoveries were nearly impossible to intercept for some characters. The ability to counter a recovery by taking a calculated risk is what made part of Melee's metagame exciting to spectate and play. It is never good a spectator sport to be considered "boring" to watch or frustrating to some players. This change should not only improve the viewing experience but also the gameplay experience of those who had to deal with these safe recoveries. As much as I love Project M, I admit that it was an annoyance to me personally.

Speaking for myself, I was aware that we would get some backlash for it and that some would interpret the changes as "nerfs" as opposed to what they really are "design tweaks". Personally, I see this as cleaning up our characters.

Now, what if this negatively affects some characters? The thing to keep in mind is that we take these changes into account while balancing characters. If your favourite character happens to perform poorly as a result, then they will most likely be tweaked. A character is more than just the sum of its parts. There are many ways a character can be "good", and characters like Captain Falcon have proven that you don't need to recover all the way from China to be viable.

I urge you to try the changes, and by "try", I don't mean playing two matches and quitting. Play for a good few months, go to events, experience how the game feels in general. Then come back and send us your feedback.

Making these tough calls is never easy, but the longevity of Project M as a competitive experience relies heavily on making those tough calls.

 

[Mach5Mike]

So I'm kind of lost on these past two 3.5 blogs, because from what I understand, both general recovery and tether recoveries got downgraded (if this is wrong can someone please clarify for me). Should I be worried as someone who plays Link, Ivysaur and ZSS?