Project M Stage and Character Survey

[Kink-Link5]

Not wanting huge stages with poor platform arrangements is not a preference any more than not wanting walkoff stages with absurdly high ceilings is. Were that that was the case, there wouldn't be a need for starter-counter splits since both can act as fair or broken in matchups depending on preference in characters and playstyles. If SSE:Jungle is legal material, than Halberd and Wario Ware are starter gold.

 

[Bryonato]

What's wrong with Wario Ware being a starter?

 

[Drike]

In my mind, there is a clear difference between a stage being unique, and a stage being annoying. The only two stages I think are annoying on page 1 are Castle Siege and Halberd. Compared to Brawl stages, they are alright. Compared to Project M stages, Halberd and Castle Seige are awful. I just don't know why we should use those two stages when there are so many other, better stages in Project M. Now, stages like Wario Ware, Rumble Falls, and Norfair, I really enjoy. They are unique enough to be strategic counter-picks, but they don't distract the players from their fight and ruin the competitive environment.

 

[leelue]

Not wanting huge stages with poor platform arrangements=

Skyworld is not huge. This is a lunatic's statement.

Skyworld's platforms are different. I fail to see how they are inherently worse than battlefield's. You get to recover onto them with some characters in some situations that would have been a simple edgeguard on a "traditional" stage. This is a good thing, if you ask me.

 

[Phaiyte]

Am I the only one that kinda likes Norfair? I mean yeah that top platform sucks because it's kinda high up but it's like w/e yaknow man like foreal this stage da bomb n stuff cuz I up b with ganon AND captain falcon!!!! SHOW ME YOUR MOOOOVES (Q=)-O ))) !!!! OH YEAHHHH! (that was a falcon punch lol:D)) I must return to SASUKE~~ BYYEEEEEEE (^_^)v !!!! (I use so many !!s because I'm exclaiming so much:3)

 

[Overswarm]

If you ever find yourself saying "I hate this stage" or "this stage sucks", play on it two dozen times in a row.

If you can't adapt to the circumstances of the stage and then play the stage well, the stage might have a problem.

If you are the one of only a few who can't do it, it is YOU that has a problem.

Rules change on each stage you're on. A lot of people aren't good enough to keep track of the different stage layouts and know what they are "supposed" to do, so they typically stick to the same two stages. Flat with 3 platforms and essentially flat with no platforms, and slight variants thereof. They get upset because they spent time learning to move super-fast like the pros and suddenly can't on a stage like Norfair and because things that aren't "supposed" to happen occur (such as dropped combos, missed edgeguards, etc.). They don't want to learn the "new game".

I say **** that, those guys are losers.

 

[Spiffykins]

There's also the issue of stage transformations interrupting the flow of matches, strange edges ******* with some characters' recoveries more than others, as well as stage size and blast zone johns. Like, has anyone ever complained about the edges on FD? I can't imagine they have, because they're magical.

For me, any stage that makes me feel like I'm fighting the stage as well as the opponent is janky. I don't see how anyone could find stages like Skyloft anything other than uncomfortably awkward to play on.

 

[Overswarm]

There's also the issue of stage transformations interrupting the flow of matches, strange edges ****ing with some characters' recoveries more than others, as well as stage size and blast zone johns. Like, has anyone ever complained about the edges on FD? I can't imagine they have, because they're magical.

For me, any stage that makes me feel like I'm fighting the stage as well as the opponent is janky. I don't see how anyone could find stages like Skyloft anything other than uncomfortably awkward to play on.

I feel like I'm fighting the stage every time I play on Battlefield, Smashville, or FD. It's not really a good metric.

 

[metroid1117]

I feel like I'm fighting the stage every time I play on Battlefield, Smashville, or FD. It's not really a good metric.

How so? I'm not refuting you, I'm just curious because I've never felt like I'm "fighting" those stages.

 

[Juushichi]

I would imagine that you feel like you're fighting the stage much like you would fight the stage on... any stage, I guess.

Some character affinity issues aside, I can't say that I've really felt particularly uncomfortable on any stage I've played on recently. I think SSE: Jungle and Rumble Falls (+? ... whatever) are a bit too large for me, but outside of that I haven't really found an issue. I guess I've you've trained yourself to sweetspot on a small subset of ledges and stuff it would be kinda difficult... but for the most part, idk man it's just platforms and different stage layouts.

Even for how "intrusive" stages like Halberd seem, you're pretty much given everything to expect on a plate here. Especially since they removed the claw that was actually relatively intrusive (but still allowed you to be knowledgeable as to who it was targeting). The bomb lands in the same place that it fires up to when it goes off screen and the laser gives you a overlay display of where it's actually firing. This allows you to either avoid it and take a break, avoid it and fight around it or actively use it to your advantage.

 

[Kink-Link5]

As an aside, my only complaint with Halberd is the lip on the side.

 

[Overswarm]

How so? I'm not refuting you, I'm just curious because I've never felt like I'm "fighting" those stages.

If I'm playing Ice Climbers on FD, I'm no longer fighting the Ice Climbers. The moment I get hit, I'm fighting the stage's length and lack of platforms because I'd like to land on an edge or platform. On every other stage I have some sort of place I can land, but that stage? Nope. They get a free followup.

Same goes for anyone else that wants to grab me. Moment I land on the same plane as them I'm in trouble. Someone wants to juggle me with u-airs? I don't get to land on a platform or even b-reverse to a different one, I'm stuck in the "hope I hit the ground to get my 2nd jump back so when he hits me again I can dodge" loop. This last one occurs much less in Melee due to the prevalence of fast fallers, but ask any Snake players in Brawl how awesome it was to get juggled by Marth's u-air on FD. o_O

Smashville has common edgeguards fail consistently depending on whether the platform is on your side or not. If I gimp marth with Sheik's needles by stopping his 2nd jump momentum, he gets back on the platform for free. On the flip side, if I'm on that platform I can drop down and edgeguard WAY farther off stage than I normally can and my opponent can't do much about it.

Battlefield was my least favorite stage in Brawl because I played ROB. Whenever you get hit on that stage you are in the inverse situation you are on FD. You no longer get to hit the ground itself, you're stuck on the platforms above it. For someone like ROB who has this gigantic blind spot below him, it typically meant you lost your stock or were going to take enough damage to where you might as well have been.


Every stage has a multitude of details that changes it ever so slightly, but many people like feeling "comfortable" playing Smash. If you, for example, played Random with all legal stages on random, you'd see your performance plummet because you don't know what you're doing with the majority of the characters on a majority of the stages. Playing on Norfair may seem like common sense to someone like Fox, but then you pick Ganon and you have a much harder time. You can learn Peach vs. Fox down to the last detail, but it changes whether you're on SSE:Jungle, Wario ware, or Smashville.

When people run into things that they don't understand or aren't proficient in, they don't have fun. When they don't have fun and don't do well, they will blame the stage. This has occurred with every single player I have ever met, even those that know of this phenomenon and mean to avoid it, and it likely always will.

Prime example would be any stage where people complain about ledges. Battlefield in Melee, FD in Brawl, Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege (left side under the lip).

When someone complains about those ledges, tell them you'll give them $10 if they can jump off stage and then grab the ledge 100% of the time. They will grab the ledge 100% of the time because it isn't hard. But in the frenzy of a close game or the laziness of a friendly, they get sloppy and miss the spacing and see themselves bump their head or miss the ledge and fall to their death. They then blame the stage because on a DIFFERENT stage it would have worked and somehow think this doesn't make them idiots.

It's not hard to grab the ledge on those stages, just has to be more precise. But people don't like that. Same stuff occurs with platforms that are too high, stages that are too big, whatever.

 

[trash?]

I want more people to play YIB. Like, that stage is wildly different compared to the usual, but not in a pictochat sense of "toss as many gimmicks as possible and see if it sticks" kind. Also applies to Skyloft, which should basically be the measuring tool of P:M to determine if an asymmetrical stage is good or not.

I just want cooler stages, and it's not very fun to see people try to turn that into "boring stages, but WAIT NOW THERE'S A BORING ONE-SIDED DESIGN TO IT GOGOGO"

 

[Jandlebars]

I want more people to play YIB. Like, that stage is wildly different compared to the usual, but not in a pictochat sense of "toss as many gimmicks as possible and see if it sticks" kind. Also applies to Skyloft, which should basically be the measuring tool of P:M to determine if an asymmetrical stage is good or not.

I just want cooler stages, and it's not very fun to see people try to turn that into "boring stages, but WAIT NOW THERE'S A BORING ONE-SIDED DESIGN TO IT GOGOGO"

I'd personally love more asymmetrical stages like Skyloft, since the way you approach a given situation can subtly change depending on what side you happen to be on, while not being so obstructive that it becomes an actual detriment to different characters.
At the very least, a person who knows that they can build a relatively 'uneven' stage, with the knowledge that such a stage could still be legal, might allow for more interesting stage designs. Obviously you can't go overboard with such a thing, but there's more to creativity than just making a spectacle.

 

[The_NZA]

I'd argue Castle Seige isn't "random" at all since there are consistent times the stages change phases and they aren't hard to keep track of. I promise you, once people figure out the timings, if those stages are legal we are going to see some INSANE edge guarding. People are going to go way out to secure a kill because they know the transition is going to come in the next 2 seconds and they'll have a safety net to land in. I think it's going to help separate the really knowledgeable players from the ones that lack that insight.

 

[Nausicaa]

NZA ^
That's why I have an issue with those stages.
I've been able to get kills on Halberd by setting up my opponent to tech at a certain time (I'm only talking about the initial opening sequence of a match, not the mid-match changes), and I've been/seen my opponent gimped by Castle Siege transformations simply by being near an edge and trying to jump high enough to land on the coming stage without going too close to the middle, and be pulled down by awkward gravity. These experiential nuances are as silly as the weird lip in the Rock transformation on PS1 (in Melee) where you can't WD/DD on the right side of the stage... it's just unnatural and shouldn't have to be something a player learns to deal with.
Way too particular and peculiar, for my take on what a 'competitive' environment should look like.
SSE Jungle is too big, players shouldn't have to deal with that either.
These things don't fall under the category of "play it a dozen times and you're good" but rather... "why is this here?"

Diverse stages are awesome though. The more the better. RF/Norfair/Skyloft/etc still need work though.

 

[Overswarm]

SSE Jungle isn't too big
Getting a kill on someone at the beginning of Halberd due to them teching during takeoff means they ****ed up, it's no different than jumping into an attack when offstage
Castle Siege doesn't have weird gravity (WTF?)

The PS1 ledge issue in Melee I agree with.

The other stuff, seems like you just need practice.

 

[leelue]

SSE Jungle isn't too big

Kill yourself

Getting a kill on someone at the beginning of Halberd due to them teching during takeoff means they ****ed up, it's no different than jumping into an attack when offstage

As Halberd's biggest supporter, this is a legitimate complaint. You shouldn't die for being grabbed at 8% by a character with a weak throw.

Castle Siege doesn't have weird gravity (WTF?)

Go to the stage when it's transforming back to the castle. wait outside of the castle on the invisible ground, and start trying to jump back to the stage.

----------
FWIW
my least favorite stages on page 1 to fight on are, from not so bad to the worst:

Castle siege, FD, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island (I don't even count SSE:J since it's not on a ruleset)

Skyworld and skyloft get on my nerves for their own reasons, but I love playing there a lot.

I hate the goddamn yoshi stages with a passion

 

[leelue]

******** Double post​

 

[Overswarm]

Kill yourself

I am the single most irritating camper you could ever possibly play. SSE:Jungle has none of the qualities of a good camping stage.

As Halberd's biggest supporter, this is a legitimate complaint. You shouldn't die for being grabbed at 8% by a character with a weak throw.

More like you shouldn't stand in a place where the static platform isn't going to rise? What kind of idiot hangs out on the side, get grabbed at the one second it will kill him, gets thrown, then sees the stage lift off like it always does and complains about the stage?

It's risk vs. reward. Want the possibility of a low % kill? Hang off one the sides, just know they can do it to you too. Want to be safe? Hang out near the middle.

Go to the stage when it's transforming back to the castle. wait outside of the castle on the invisible ground, and start trying to jump back to the stage.

Why would I do that? You jump before the transformation, not after you're already off stage.

 

[leelue]

I am the single most irritating camper you could ever possibly play. SSE:Jungle has none of the qualities of a good camping stage.

We could have a contest. I'm sure it will be long and boring for both spectators, before they gouge their eyes out watching us not commit to anything.
But joking aside this is the kind of thing that can be bad, and this clearly is not a proper stage. A map shouldn't be an autoban as often as this one would be. What would make you say that it isn't too big?


Meanwhile this

More like you shouldn't stand in a place where the static platform isn't going to rise? What kind of idiot hangs out on the side, get grabbed at the one second it will kill him, gets thrown, then sees the stage lift off like it always does and complains about the stage?

and this

Why would I do that? You jump before the transformation, not after you're already off stage.

Make it seem as though you are in full control of your character at all times, and that Oh I don't know you can get hit from somewhere near the middle of the stage and not end up somewhere off the stage.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Overswarm reminds me of a more stubborn Bubbaking. He's always right and the entire rest of the Smash community is always wrong. People saying SSE Jungle is big as **** are wrong. The Melee tier list is wrong, and any list of characters that doesn't rank them by tournament results is wrong. The stage striking system is wrong. Running brackets instead of pools only is wrong. The entire basis upon which this community has founded its metagame is wrong.

 

[metroid1117]

Please don't start this, guys. These are arguments never end well.

On-topic: I personally prefer stages that accentuate the player-vs-player aspect of Smash over stages that add an element of player-vs-player-vs-environment. That could be me being a scrub though.

 

[leelue]

Overswarm reminds me of a more stubborn Bubbaking.

Low Blow

 

[Nausicaa]

SSE Jungle isn't too big
Getting a kill on someone at the beginning of Halberd due to them teching during takeoff means they ****ed up, it's no different than jumping into an attack when offstage
Castle Siege doesn't have weird gravity (WTF?)

The PS1 ledge issue in Melee I agree with.

The other stuff, seems like you just need practice.

Dedede's Bthrow tosses people FAR and knocks down at 0 on essentially everyone. Falcon/Marth should be obvious in their ability to get a grab and lead into spikes/simply throwing people into position when needed.
Just the fact that this IS possible, means there's some silliness there. It shouldn't be possible, regardless of how situational/avoidable it is.
If the Bomb 1HKO'd someone, would it be legit? It happens once a match almost, but it's entirely avoidable.
leelue basically described the gravity.
What's the other stuff? I assume you mean the other stages needing work...
They do need work. YSM is still glitch-full even after they patched the things I've posted, the stages I mentioned will likely be tweaked now and again through the patches. It's not a big deal.

The Selection List and format need to change eventually though. The current method people are using takes too long for my tastes. :/

 

[Overswarm]

We could have a contest. I'm sure it will be long and boring for both spectators, before they gouge their eyes out watching us not commit to anything.
But joking aside this is the kind of thing that can be bad, and this clearly is not a proper stage. A map shouldn't be an autoban as often as this one would be. What would make you say that it isn't too big?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho

That was a tournament match right after Brawl's release =P

Make it seem as though you are in full control of your character at all times, and that Oh I don't know you can get hit from somewhere near the middle of the stage and not end up somewhere off the stage.

If you get hit, you made a mistake and were punished for it. It doesn't happen by accident. People take risky behavior as the norm and then get upset when it doesn't turn up in their favor. Or even worse, they don't recognize it as risky because they don't adapt to the stage their playing on and then blame the stage!

Anyone that gets killed when Halberd takes off dug their own grave. Halberd has been a stage in Brawl since the beginning and someone dying at the liftoff only occurred when one player screwed up and the other player capitalized. It isn't difficult at all to not get destroyed in the few seconds of the match start.

On-topic: I personally prefer stages that accentuate the player-vs-player aspect of Smash over stages that add an element of player-vs-player-vs-environment. That could be me being a scrub though.

It is!

You've created a false dichotomy. It is always player-vs-player-vs-environment.

You are always playing against your opponent, their character, and the stage you are on. Many lower level players don't really adapt to the new stages and simply play the same way they always have.

Watch top level Melee players play on a stage like Final Destination and then watch them play on Yoshi's or Dreamland. You'll notice some pretty striking differences because they have to adapt to their environment.

It's no different playing on other stages. The only difference is that some stages are simply played more because they're easier to understand.

Most people figure out Final Destination pretty fast. People do not figure out stages like Green Greens in Melee very quickly at all.

Here's a logic problem for you:

I was able to counter-pick everyone I played in tournament to either Green Greens or Kongo Jungle (the one with the rock) in Melee while they were legal. I won an extraordinary amount of times there, well above my normal average. Top players that I was guaranteed to lose to would beat me 2-1 instead of 2-0.

Why would players of arguably higher skill consistently lose or have a harder time playing me on these stages as opposed to something like Dream Land?

The difference is stage experience, plain and simple. I took the time to learn the stages, they didn't, I profited. You can find a similar situation with unique character choices. We don't ban Luigi from tournament simply because he's rarely played, yet he has the same effect as these stages. Players that normally win just fine will have trouble with an oddball character that has been developed over time by a player with a drive to do so and we've all seen dozens of upsets based solely on "not knowing the matchup".

Why is there such a difference in "not knowing the matchup" and "not knowing the stage" when they produce the exact same results?

People just naturally look for whatever makes their job easier and makes them look like they suck less.

Dedede's Bthrow tosses people FAR and knocks down at 0 on essentially everyone. Falcon/Marth should be obvious in their ability to get a grab and lead into spikes/simply throwing people into position when needed.
Just the fact that this IS possible, means there's some silliness there. It shouldn't be possible, regardless of how situational/avoidable it is.

I think you're playing a different game than me.

If the Bomb 1HKO'd someone, would it be legit? It happens once a match almost, but it's entirely avoidable.
leelue basically described the gravity.

It would depend on the Bomb's properties. The "gravity" has been known and figured out since the first year of Brawl's release. It's kind of funny to see people complaining about things that were figured out ages ago. It'd be like someone making a thread called "Should we ban chaingrabs and Fox's shinespike".

 

[Nausicaa]

We figured out the weird lip on the side of PS1, and it has been a significant deciding factor in grand finals matches throughout the years (decided a match between M2K and PP at Zenith, being the last time I lol'd at it) and it was stilled played with.
I'm not sure what your point is, but does it apply to this as well?

 

[Vashimus]

Overswarm reminds me of a more stubborn Bubbaking. He's always right and the entire rest of the Smash community is always wrong. People saying SSE Jungle is big as **** are wrong. The Melee tier list is wrong, and any list of characters that doesn't rank them by tournament results is wrong. The stage striking system is wrong. Running brackets instead of pools only is wrong. The entire basis upon which this community has founded its metagame is wrong.

What the hell happened to Bubbaking anyway? Never see him in General Discussion anymore.

 

[Akenero]

finished it, i'm honestly too harsh on lucas, oh well.I hate that kid in Project M

 

[Nausicaa]

I didn't read the OP, so was really confused on what you 'finished'
I'll check that out sometime, looks fun.
What's so hate-able about Lucas?