Project M Social Thread

[PEEF!]

I think Magus is about to solve everything. Smart guy good at things.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

For anyone that's still wondering what Ivy's helicopter recovery looks like in Brawl-, here's a vid of it in action.

She could also move around on the ground, too.

I think Magus is about to solve everything. Smart guy good at things.

You mean Magnus?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Romoval of auto sweetspot: makes the game not dumb. I don't think there's any argument there.

Had to fix that for you. Seriously, coming from a Brawl player, auto-sweetspot is so ****ing dumb. Like take everything you hate about Brawl, and double that, and that's how much I hate that one little mechanic.

 

[MonkUnit]

It also makes things like MK's upB planking way too easy in Bralw.

 

[Haloedhero]

Had to fix that for you. Seriously, coming from a Brawl player, auto-sweetspot is so ****ing dumb. Like take everything you hate about Brawl, and double that, and that's how much I hate that one little mechanic.

Haha, agreed. That one little thing in Brawl took away so much of what I loved about Smash.

But those were just examples, of course. The list goes on and on, which is really a sad statement for Brawl, but my original point remains.

 

[I R MarF]

Having the ability to adjust ledge occupancy offers just as much balance opportunity as any other function... whether it be grab range, jumping, speed, range, etc.

In other words, I think ledge occupancy frames should depend on the character much like a character's wavedash length depends on the character. I'm not saying they should be related, but I'm saying that their length should be good for some and bad for others.

For instance, characters that already have a lot of offstage options (Like Jiggs and MK) should have less ledge occupancy frames than say, Yoshi who has more difficulty edgeguarding than the rest of the cast.

Here is a suggested "tier list" of ledge occupancies

Top Tier: (Characters who have poor range or otherwise bad edgeguarding, bad offstage edgeguarding, or unsafe recoveries. Could have 80-85% of Melee ledge occupancy)

Yoshi
Olimar
Ivysaur
Ness


High Tier: (Characters who can hold their own onstage, but still lack "great" edgeguarding abilities. Could be 65-75% of Melee Ledge occupancy)

DK
Luigi
Zelda
Lucas
ICs
Bowser
DDD

Mid Tier: (Characters similar to the group above. They don't justify a LO as high either because they seem to be better characters or their edgeguarding options are already pretty good (like Mario) Could be between 50-60% of Melee Ledge occupancy)

Ganon
Link
Toon Link
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Wario
Mario
Lucario
ZSS
Charizard?

Low Tier: (Characters that either have great edgeguarding options, projectile options, or are just amazing gimpers from the stage. Could have 30-40% melee LO)

Shiek
Marth
Fox
Falco
Samus
Wolf
Ike?
Sonic
Snake
Diddy
G&W

Bottom Tier: (Characters that have very effective recovery and offstage options. they could have aproximately 25% melee LO)

Peach?
ROB?
Pit
Kirby
MK
Jiggs
Pikachu

 

[jalued]

I think Magus is about to solve everything. Smart guy good at things.

if this is false hype i'll be sad

 

[Spoon~]

Having the ability to adjust ledge occupancy offers just as much balance opportunity as any other function... whether it be grab range, jumping, speed, range, etc.

In other words, I think ledge occupancy frames should depend on the character much like a character's wavedash length depends on the character. I'm not saying they should be related, but I'm saying that their length should be good for some and bad for others.

For instance, characters that already have a lot of offstage options (Like Jiggs and MK) should have less ledge occupancy frames than say, Yoshi who has more difficulty edgeguarding than the rest of the cast.

Here is a suggested "tier list" of ledge occupancies

Top Tier: (Characters who have poor range or otherwise bad edgeguarding, bad offstage edgeguarding, or unsafe recoveries. Could have 80-85% of Melee ledge occupancy)

Yoshi
Olimar
Ivysaur
Ness


High Tier: (Characters who can hold their own onstage, but still lack "great" edgeguarding abilities. Could be 65-75% of Melee Ledge occupancy)

DK
Luigi
Zelda
Lucas
ICs
Bowser
DDD

Mid Tier: (Characters similar to the group above. They don't justify a LO as high either because they seem to be better characters or their edgeguarding options are already pretty good (like Mario) Could be between 50-60% of Melee Ledge occupancy)

Ganon
Link
Toon Link
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Wario
Mario
Lucario
ZSS
Charizard?

Low Tier: (Characters that either have great edgeguarding options, projectile options, or are just amazing gimpers from the stage. Could have 30-40% melee LO)

Shiek
Marth
Fox
Falco
Samus
Wolf
Ike?
Sonic
Snake
Diddy
G&W

Bottom Tier: (Characters that have very effective recovery and offstage options. they could have aproximately 25% melee LO)

Peach?
ROB?
Pit
Kirby
MK
Jiggs
Pikachu

I think all characters should have the same LO if all characters have reverse ledgegrabs in special fall. I mean, it is a game about balance.

 

[Stevo]

I would have to agree that they should all be mostly standardized or should match the animation. It would just be annoying to have to know how long each characters LO is otherwise.

 

[UltiMario]

I would have to agree that they should all be mostly standardized or should match the animation. It would just be annoying to have to know how long each characters LO is otherwise.

This didn't bother people in Melee.

Nonstandard ledge occupancy wouldn't really be an issue.

Also, LO determines if it takes more skill to edgeguard or to recover, not just "more or less skill" as a whole.

 

[rk-9000]

my only problem with this is my ivysaur can use fly? Does ivysaur, in the pokemon games, have any moves that look like this?

leaf storm? petal dance? the smash people have taken liberties with the pokemon's moves before, i.e. pikachu's neutral b

 

[Shadic]

Not to mention the liberties that they take with Pokemon moves in the Pokemon Anime itself.

 

[Stevo]

This didn't bother people in Melee.

Nonstandard ledge occupancy wouldn't really be an issue.

Also, LO determines if it takes more skill to edgeguard or to recover, not just "more or less skill" as a whole.

if you noticed I wrote "mostly standardized" which I think melee was. (I guess I could be wrong though, but most of them seem pretty close length wise)

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think the argument that "X should be kept because that's how it's always been" should never be seriously considered. It's anti-progressive and foolish. The only validity it has is that it will be slightly easier to market the finished game to people used to the old mechanic. Instead we should say "X has been this way for a long time because of Y" where Y is an actually valid reason not to change X, which would actually make sense as an argument. I'm not seeing that sort of argument in this debate, only the first one.

 

[PEEF!]

Mattnumbers, you are forgetting the goals of the project.

 

[jalued]

tbh the question is just how much of an advantage should an edgeguarder have.

If they can fix tether's i am in favour of having melee LO, otherwise have it 75% of animation time

 

[JCaesar]

The goal of this project is not to recreate Melee 100%. It never was. Didn't someone just post a good-size list of things that are intentionally different from Melee? Melee isn't perfect.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If the goal of the project was to be exactly like Melee, why rebalance characters? Why not delete stages that are brawl exclusive? Or Brawl exclusive characters? Why not play Melee?

The goal of the project is to make an improved Melee, one with more characters, stages, and features. One that gets rid of the stupid things in Melee such as garbage characters and rebalances them to make them better. I think YOU are the one forgetting the goals of Project M PEEF.

 

[GHNeko]

This is where the term, "Melee 2.0" should ring through people's heads a bit harder.

i.e.

The "2.0" means a version upgrade, implying it's not the same exact thing as the prior version.

i.e.

This is not a pure melee-clone with better graphics.

 

[JCaesar]

Clearly, since Brawl's graphics are far inferior

 

[Haloedhero]

I agree with mattnumbers. On his reasoning, and on his correction of the goal of the project.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

so any streams tonight?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

If the goal of the project was to be exactly like Melee, why rebalance characters? Why not delete stages that are brawl exclusive? Or Brawl exclusive characters? Why not play Melee?

I will cut up the next person who says this in a LO argument into a million pieces, sent his remains to the Sun, and blow the sun up with the Millenium Falcon. The point of Project M is to port all of Melee's PHYSICS over and make a better game from that, when you start changing the physics around you get something that's like Melee but not really Melee anymore. How about we make the game run at 1.5x speed to add more depth to it?

 

[Ecks]

I think all characters should have the same LO if all characters have reverse ledgegrabs in special fall. I mean, it is a game about balance.

I think it's better to compare this to a double jump. Everyone has one, but they're all different.

Anyway, I R MarF has my vote. IMO They should at least consider this if they run into balance problems.

 

[Evil Peach]

I will cut up the next person who says this in a LO argument into a million pieces, sent his remains to the Sun, and blow the sun up with the Millenium Falcon. The point of Project M is to port all of Melee's PHYSICS over and make a better game from that, when you start changing the physics around you get something that's like Melee but not really Melee anymore. How about we make the game run at 1.5x speed to add more depth to it?

Replacing Melee entirely is a do not want from my end, kthx. I feel like my list of differences was ignored.

 

[Haloedhero]

I hardly think that LO falls under physics. It's as much about physics as whether or not you can grab the ledge backwards during special fall, which is not at all.

LO is just as much of a frame data balancing issue as any hitbox or animation, and it is just as valid a thing to change. The bottom line remains that it was obviously lazily programmed in Melee (I mean, seriously, the ledge is occupied for the whole animation? You can't tell me that was a conscious design choice aimed at gameplay.), and then it was over compensated in Brawl, so it should be changed to somewhere in between the two.

And yes, I fully support it being Melee exact where it makes sense, but on some moves it just doesn't.

Edit: Lazily programmed because their development schedule was absurdly short, but lazily done nonetheless.

 

[NewJerusalem]

What is Project M?
Project M is a spin off of Brawl+ inspired by Super Smash Bros. Melee's gameplay designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters while additionally enhancing the speed of play. Project M employs new codes which seamlessly add in new, universal features to the entire cast to add technical variety to all characters.

What is the goal of Project M?
Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:
1) A fast-paced game
2) with flowing, organic movement
3) where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
4) The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
5) Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding due to ledge techs.
6) Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
7) The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

Quoted from the first page. Their goal was to achieve a game similar, no where in that goal does it state that they intended to PORT THE EXACTLY MELEE PHYSICS.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Wait, why not just have Melee LO but make the ledge roll animations look slower and match the frame data? Then we'll have it feel like Melee but look less silly.

 

[JCaesar]

Ledge occupancy is not part of the physics. It's a game mechanic, and we have intentionally left in several Brawl mechanics (like RAR) and tweaked Melee mechanics (like meteor canceling). This is no different.

 

[jalued]

i like IR marf's suggestion, but i don't think that it should be done relative to a character's offstage game but more specific match ups once the metagame develops.

making anyone with weak offstage game have a longer LO just makes all characters too average, not to mention that its difficult to properly access a characters edge-guarding potential (excluding melee top tiers)

 

[Octorox]

I will cut up the next person who says this in a LO argument into a million pieces, sent his remains to the Sun, and blow the sun up with the Millenium Falcon. The point of Project M is to port all of Melee's PHYSICS over and make a better game from that, when you start changing the physics around you get something that's like Melee but not really Melee anymore. How about we make the game run at 1.5x speed to add more depth to it?

Ledge occupancy has nothing to do with physics? I'm not sure I understand your point...

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

i like IR marf's suggestion, but i don't think that it should be done relative to a character's offstage game but more specific match ups once the metagame develops.

making anyone with weak offstage game have a longer LO just makes all characters too average, not to mention that its difficult to properly access a characters edge-guarding potential (excluding melee top tiers)

Wait...if it makes ALL of the characters too average, wouldn't that mean the game is well balanced? Isn't that what we're shooting for?

Also, how does LO affect a character's ledgeguarding "potential?" I'm confuzzled.

 

[I R MarF]

Thanks for liking my idea Ecks and jalued!

And I do agree with you on some levels, jalued. I think its important (that in any fighting game) balance should be approached and measured in relevance to capability; not by compensating every weakness.

Every character should have flaws, but should always have the potential to overcome them.

Having said that, I do think some characters are easier to exploit than others, and I am a huge believer that trying to recover should be the worst case scenario any player could be in. A character having a poor edgegame is a very bad weakness, especially when their own recovery is very poor.

 

[Haloedhero]

Wait...if it makes ALL of the characters too average, wouldn't that mean the game is well balanced? Isn't that what we're shooting for?

Also, how does LO affect a character's ledgeguarding "potential?" I'm confuzzled.

He means making the characters too homogenized. The idea of giving a character more LO to partially make up for its crappy offstage game and vice versa would basically be trying to make all characters average at edge guarding, which is bad. Some characters should be weak at edge guarding in both off stage options and LO.

However, the idea that a few frames of LO, or even quite a few, will make a huge difference across the cast is kind of blowing it out of proportion. With good timing, edge hogging can be just as useful for characters with relatively low LO frames as anyone else. Just not as painfully easy as some.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

He means making the characters too homogenized. The idea of giving a character more LO to partially make up for its crappy offstage game and vice versa would basically be trying to make all characters average at edge guarding, which is bad. Some characters should be weak at edge guarding in both off stage options and LO.

However, the idea that a few frames of LO, or even quite a few, will make a huge difference across the cast is kind of blowing it out of proportion. With good timing, edge hogging can be just as useful for characters with relatively low LO frames as anyone else. Just not as painfully easy as some.

Okay, that makes sense.

I'm a Brawl player though, and I'm pretty used to doing almost all of my edgeguarding offstage rather than hogging the ledge. Basically I'm willing to admit that I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why this is such a big deal in the first place

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

Okay, that makes sense.

I'm a Brawl player though, and I'm pretty used to doing almost all of my edgeguarding offstage rather than hogging the ledge. Basically I'm willing to admit that I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why this is such a big deal in the first place

EDIT: Sorry about the double post. My phone's being stupid :/

 

[PEEF!]

Streaming Melee and Project M practice for The Big House

Reneblade is here.

www.twitch.tv/peefsmash

 

[JCaesar]

Aw, 2 letters away from awesomeness.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I will cut up the next person who says this in a LO argument into a million pieces, sent his remains to the Sun, and blow the sun up with the Millenium Falcon. The point of Project M is to port all of Melee's PHYSICS over and make a better game from that, when you start changing the physics around you get something that's like Melee but not really Melee anymore. How about we make the game run at 1.5x speed to add more depth to it?

As others have said, LO has nothing to do with physics

Also, how does LO affect a character's ledgeguarding "potential?" I'm confuzzled.

I know the context this was in doesn't fit what I'm about to say but I just wanted to repeat this point. LO doesn't affect ledgehog potential very much at all. For the most part it only affects how easy it is. The only potential it adds is the ability to edgehog characters like Peach and Ike during their UpBs.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I will cut up the next person who says this in a LO argument into a million pieces, sent his remains to the Sun, and blow the sun up with the Millenium Falcon.

I'm pretty sure you'd need some heavier fire power to blow up a star. Might I suggest a crazy Sith Wizard? (no I'm not kidding, it's canon, look it up)