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Project M Social Thread

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DeathscytheHello

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 30, 2005
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312
Also, good, well balanced games (like Guilty Gear) always give their characters options in most situations. They might not be GOOD options, but they are options. IE they buff their weaknesses to make them LESS weak in the area. Note that they're STILL WEAK, but they can do something with it.

Bad, poorly balanced fighting games (like Blazblue) buff their strong points. From CT to CS, did Ragna get better mixup? Nope, but he could rush harder! Did Tager get an answer to full-screen players? Nope, but damn did his close-up game get improved. Note that those clowns don't do well on there.
 

UltiMario

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You give me a single scenario in Melee where a character has literally no options in a circumstance.

This isn't much worse than Guilty Gear. All characters have weaknesses, but they all can do something with that weakness (except when your weakness is having no projectiles, but that can't be helped regardless of the fighting game). There aren't going to be characters that are 100% completely hopeless in some regard, thinking that's what we're doing is naive.

While Pichu has never quite gone up there, Taj has pulled into the final rounds of tournies on numerous occasions with Mewtwo. You're hating on the balance of the game by pointing out flaws that aren't even there.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
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@ Death
I logged in on this old freakin account just to make a simple comment about your post.

Attacking the credibility and or making broad sweeping comments with no true pertinence or meaning is rather unproductive. Your post is contrived entirely of opinions based on other opinions being argued against other opinions and some empirical evidence. Worse of all you insist on being rather rude in your rather circumlocutive posts... Perhaps you should take a breather and get a firm grasp on what you are trying to say and come back later?

Also fantastic job on the Demo guys, I've been lurking and commenting of youtube vids for a while, but this game really is just fantastic. All I need is someone to play now XD

(Also is there somewhere I can go to find sonic's old/new AT's I'm rather interested in trying him out, but I have no idea where to start.)
 

Yamitsuki

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Also fantastic job on the Demo guys, I've been lurking and commenting of youtube vids for a while, but this game really is just fantastic. All I need is someone to play now XD

(Also is there somewhere I can go to find sonic's old/new AT's I'm rather interested in trying him out, but I have no idea where to start.)
If by old you mean stuff he did in brawl, look up brawl thread on sonic. For anything new, I would say simply try out stuff on your own. A great feature about this project is that really gives up new material to work with and try to be inventive. Already there are a lot of things you can learn simply by watching the videos that are out right. Plus anything you try to develop on your own.

I pity how some of the successful melee characters did not get changed very much. If you look at marth, he is the same character he was from melee (with a minor adjustment in counter knockback). So a character that has been worked for 10 years lacks that fresh appeal.
 

ajajayjay

Smash Journeyman
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@ death are you trying to argue that the melee top tiers have GOOD recoveries? Fox? Falco? Marth? I admit sheik's invincibility frames can be a roadblock, but if you force her to land onstage, you can capitalize on the incredibly laggy landing animation.
 

ajajayjay

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isn't falco the poster child of bad recoveries =). yeah I guess fox, marth and sheik have good distance recoveries, but they feel easily punishable, I guess.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Aug 24, 2007
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Falco has a variety of good ways of mixing up his recovery. If you guess what he's going to do, then yes, he's dead, but that isn't easy against a competent Falco.
 

Shadic

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People don't understand how to balance a fighting game. Perhaps they've never seriously played a real one.
At least you came out with the elitism early.

If Smash isn't a "real fighting game," then how would it make sense to balance the game in the same manner? Should FPS games copy level design for platformers? I certainly think not.
 

Wavebuster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
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Falco's vertical recovery is decent. It's his horizontal recovery that's terrible, which no amount of is of much help against spiking.
 

Dragoon Fighter

Smash Lord
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In every Smash game to date Mario has been used as the "well-rounded character" a jack of all trades, a master of none.

You see that in no tier list is Mario anywhere decent. Rounding off characters only makes them nothing but worse if anything.
HAHA, he was 5th place in Super Smash Bros. 64.
 

UltiMario

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He is also 7th worst :3

Proportially speaking, being 5th in Smash 64 would be like being like 18th in Brawl. That's not amazing.
 

UltiMario

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Note to self: Don't take numbers literally anymore.

MUST TAKE NUMBERS METAPHORICALLY.

THE SKY IS AS 6 AS THE GRASS IS 3.
 

Makai

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 23, 2007
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106
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North Carolina
The big flaw in thinking about it that way is that the differences in tiers aren't as drastic in Smash 64 as they are in Brawl
 

DJ Xero

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
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26
At least you came out with the elitism early.

If Smash isn't a "real fighting game," then how would it make sense to balance the game in the same manner? Should FPS games copy level design for platformers? I certainly think not.
No, but something they DO is balance their games with conventions that work. Games like Guilty Gear and Street Fighter II/IV have revisions that do what many games call tier flips. They take the best characters and keep them as they are/remove tools that nobody else has access to, or gives some of those tools to the bottom. What generally happens is the game gets the previous worst characters to be the best, and then they either add miniscule buffs/ nerfs to bring it to the middle.

FPS works the same way. When Valve realized that the Scout couldn't move around an Engineer, they introduced Bonk! which if you don't know beats the Engineer's Sentries, but removes the pistol, which really hurts him against the weaker classes like the Spy and the Pyro.(to be fair, I haven't played TF2 SINCE these patches, and a lot of the new patches change the game to a degree that it isn't the same game, so I can't really make a comment). That Being said, the only FPS you can compare this to is a Class based shooter. In games like Halo, UT, and Counterstrike, people all have access to the same guns, and it becomes more about twitch than actual strategy, and doesn't allow for tactical thinking in the first place. Everyone eventually devolves to one or two guns that are a little better, and sticks with them.

In a fighter, traditional or otherwise, every character needs to have tools. They need to maintain an even margin along the 'Average' This is the problem that Melee (and games like Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 for that matter) have. They have an incredibly high margin for the top tiers, and an incredibly low margin for everyone else.

In Melee, Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek stand very clearly above the rest. Sure, Jigglypuff is great, Falcon and Peach less so, but what can you really tell me about the matchups past that? What do you do in the Fox vs Kirby matchup differently? What can Luigi do to throw off Falco? What does Roy have against Mario?

I'm saying that you guys understand the matchups between the top 4-10 pretty well.

What do you know about the Mid v. Mid?

Also, To whoever said 'What characters have hopeless situations'

Game and Watch cannot win against Falcon, Falco, Fox. He has a couple cool combos that only work on the Spaceys, but they are so fast that he can't do a damn thing. His moves are so slow that the best he can do is dodge, and even then, that only works for one or two hits.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 30, 2009
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464
Uh Magus plays mid tier, strongbad is a DK main if I'm not mistaken, JC has a strong affinity to G&W... A considerable portion of the playtesters main characters who aren't in the melee high tiers... what are you talking about DJX? I would assume since their own personal preferences are low/mid tier and the advice they get comes from those who play low/mid tier that they might have a decent idea what they should do to make those characters better...

Also thanks for the tip on sonic, I have watched a ton of the vids, but I just can't figure out what some of the stuff is <___>, I spose I'll hop on the sonic thread and see whats up.
 

ajajayjay

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
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273
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Be glad that the developers are even putting effort into balancing project m, and not angry that they aren't doing a perfect job, which is impossible.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Considering we have s ome of the best players out there who have given us feedback throughout this project (i.e. amsah, faab, etc), I think we can say we have more insight into matchups and design than you, DJ Xero. I mean no offense by it, but I think you need to take a step back and realize we've done extensive research and know more about melee and brawl than probably 95% of people.
 

I R MarF

Smash Ace
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Apr 2, 2010
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716
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At my house
In Melee, Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek stand very clearly above the rest. Sure, Jigglypuff is great, Falcon and Peach less so, but what can you really tell me about the matchups past that? What do you do in the Fox vs Kirby matchup differently? What can Luigi do to throw off Falco? What does Roy have against Mario?

I'm saying that you guys understand the matchups between the top 4-10 pretty well.

What do you know about the Mid v. Mid?

Also, To whoever said 'What characters have hopeless situations'

Game and Watch cannot win against Falcon, Falco, Fox. He has a couple cool combos that only work on the Spaceys, but they are so fast that he can't do a damn thing. His moves are so slow that the best he can do is dodge, and even then, that only works for one or two hits.
There are a lot of things wrong with post.

1. Fox, Falco and Marth DO NOT stand above the entire cast.

Yes, the spacies are amazing characters, but they have a high learning curve and many glaring weaknesses. It isn't a stretch to say the entire cast can combo and gimp them, along with them being the most suicide prone chars in the entire series. High Risk=High Reward

And to say Marth stands above everyone is laughable. His match-ups are easily the least impressive amongst the high tiers and he has several of his own glaring weaknesses. I.E. combo trouble at high percents, easily combo'd, easily punished. Of course, I am not questioning his position on the tiers, but saying he is just "above" all the other characters is a stretch.

In fact, the only characters that could be considered "just better" than the rest of the cast (IMO) are Shiek and Jiggs. They both combo/ gimp like its their job and have very small learning curves. With Shiek, everything leads into fair... while Jiggs is seamingly immune to major risks like being gimped, mid-percent comboed, and chain grabbed.

2. What do mean by "what do you know about mid vs. mid match-ups"? Techniically, mid- tier is considered viable so they are obviously known very well. and if characetrs below this tier section are being retooled than you won't know about the match ups until the community gets their hands on it.

3. Your entire presumption about G&W seems entirely based off the fact parachute has start up lag when the majority of his moves come out very fast. Fair, bair, dair, dtilt, utilt, usmash, and grabs are fantastic.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
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8,225
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Tampa, FL
There's a difference between learning curve and how good a character actually is at high level.

Fox is good at low and high levels. He's easy to use and difficult to fight against regardless. Falco is only good at top level. Jiggs is good at all levels and absurd at top level. Sheik and Marth are hella good at every level but Fox, Falco and Jiggs have proven to be better at top level.

How good characters are isnt clear cut.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
The patch is to fix some bugs, such as landing from upB on frame 22 with marth, lucas being able to interrupt his downward airdodge with a special, etc. Just some small bugs.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
464
I found somthing weird with sonic and I'm not sure if it is known or not. You can cancel his side-b spindash with a sheild just a few frames into it, but it keeps it's hitbox. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but it makes for some obscene grab games.
 
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