Project M Social Thread

[genkaku]

Singers, calm down. It's not your call.

[edit] For clarity's sake, emphasis on calm down.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

Singers, calm down. It's not your call.

this is a bad attitude for the project imo
if something is terrible and put in and no one likes we should be able to speak up about it, that's one of the reason this thread is here
hypothetically let's say the pm team said "hey, lets keep falcos brawl shine, it's melee 2.0 and kicking people is the new thing"
would you just say it's not your call or speak up about it?
btw this is all hypothetical, not meant to be ripping on the devs or anything

 

[GP&B]

The problem with your argument is that hardly anyone has had issues with AGT. If it was a majority against it, the devs would at least try to remove it if there was a solution.

That's also not bringing in the audacity of an argument which calls for removal of something that adds depth especially in the light of being completely unintentional.

 

[Strong Badam]

gamedominator06 brings up the interesting point that stingers is the only one not liking AGT.

 

[stingers]

Because I'm the only one who actually says anything...look at this thread, it's full of people riding your ***** all the time...I guess thats what you guys want though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brawl is a bad game from both a competitive and casual standpoint. Lack of Pichu is unforgivable.

Try to make less claims without evidence or support. In what way is L-Canceling "Fake-Depth"? What forms of movement were added to Brawl that serve even a similar function as wavedashing? What character specific techniques add any actual depth to their metagame in real play? Depth has very little to do with techniques, but rather their application.

Explain yourself and stop making baseless and/or support-lacking, foolish, snide comments.

I love how for some reason I have to provide reasons that Brawl is good lest my comments get called baseless, foolish and snide, but no one else has any reason that Brawl is bad other than "it's not Melee".

I can't prove Brawl isn't bad by the way, because, like I said, it is SUBJECTIVE. But I'll play your stupid game:
a) The graphics are very high quality, just looking at nearly any stage you can see the amount of depth put into it's design.
b) The sound is also of good quality, a lot of the songs are nostalgic while still updated for improved sound.
c) There is a huge amount of extra features for casual players. HUGE amount.
d) Their is a large amount of diverse characters and stages which makes up for anything removed from Melee easily.
e) L-Cancelling is fake depth because it isn't actual depth, just the illusion of it. I am in no way suggesting that it should be removed from P:M like some before me were, but what depth does it add to the game other than the situational "tilt shield to screw up opponent sometimes"?
f) Reread my post, I said nothing about techniques that are similar to wave-dashing. I said there are techniques which make up for the lack of it. For example, rolling is much more useful, you can DACUS, pivot grab, etc...
g) Non-Universal Techniques: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Techniques_(SSBB)

Try again please.

 

[Sterowent]

indeed, that's how these things work. if a lot of people complain about it, this might be a sign that it's a problem, but no one's complained about AGT. shame about tripping though. a lot of people complained about that, and it's most certainly gone now much to my disappointment.

edit: guy above me is insane for a and b being "it was manufactured with up to date graphics and a good musical score" and "Their is a large amount of diverse characters and stages which makes up for anything removed from Melee easily." to elaborate, the first is a new artstyle away from previous games, one of 'reality' which is over-saturated in this game market, but, sure, it's well done. too bad the camera showcasing all of it blows. the second? yeah, amazing soundtrack. this is a high note about the game, but it's a bit detached from the game, like a soundtrack to a movie or laugh tracks in sitcoms. the third point i don't want to explain because you're absolutely getting flack from others on that, so they can take that one.

 

[Wind Owl]

Wasn't the Melee vs. Brawl debate, like... three years ago?

 

[Dantarion]

you guys are starting to make odd changes and when asked "why is this here" or "why did you change that" the answer is always "it's melee 2.0"
don't stray too far from melee guys or you'll turn off people from the project

Oh wait, are all of the people in this thread playtesting the game?
Whats that? All of the people playtesting have access to the backroom and IRC where we do the real work?

Honestly, having stingers post "THIS IS IN P:M AND ITS DUMB" doesn't mean much when tweaking something like that might take 30 seconds to fix, but if its not a big problem and it hasnt been brought up because it isn't gamebreaking....no one cares. We are still rushing forward fixing what we can for right now.

For example, we just got 100% control of ledgegrab boxes.

 

[GP&B]

Pro.

So, no more uber long range grabbing?

 

[Strong Badam]

Because I'm the only one who actually says anything...look at this thread, it's full of people riding your dicks all the time...I guess thats what you guys want though.

if you're the only one saying anything, then you're the only one who doesn't like it.
if you read the topic you'd know that there's more "wat why is [something] in project m, this game will fail" than "omg u guys are awesome," in part thanks to you.

 

[stingers]

LOL you must be joking...read through the last few pages again...i think you just take criticism too personally...

all I'm trying to do is ensure this project is well received by the masses...you're trying to alienate your main audience by putting in things like AGT...come on now, it's really silly and you must recognize this, you're just trying to defend it because you're used to it and you feel like I'm attacking you when I attack the project...it's nothing personal I swear <3

 

[sswizzbbeatss]

How do i get into the pm backroom?

 

[Dantarion]

You get invited for being awesome.

Either having some skill that would benefit the project, or being a person we want testing the game.

I am in because of my skill.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

edit: guy above me is insane for a and b being "it was manufactured with up to date graphics and a good musical score" and "Their is a large amount of diverse characters and stages which makes up for anything removed from Melee easily." to elaborate, the first is a new artstyle away from previous games, one of 'reality' which is over-saturated in this game market, but, sure, it's well done. too bad the camera showcasing all of it blows. the second? yeah, amazing soundtrack. this is a high note about the game, but it's a bit detached from the game, like a soundtrack to a movie or laugh tracks in sitcoms. the third point i don't want to explain because you're absolutely getting flack from others on that, so they can take that one.

The camera isn't HORRIBLE, just worse than Melee's. Glad you agree about the music, it doesn't feel detached from the game at all to me though.

Oh, and before anyone jumps down my throat, I prefer Melee. I admit that Brawl has faults, especially regarding the competitive aspect. Brawl, however, is not a bad game.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

gamedominator06 brings up the interesting point that stingers is the only one not liking AGT.

Because I'm the only one who actually says anything...look at this thread, it's full of people riding your dicks all the time...I guess thats what you guys want though.

Oh wait, are all of the people in this thread playtesting the game?
Whats that? All of the people playtesting have access to the backroom and IRC where we do the real work?

Honestly, having stingers post "THIS IS IN P:M AND ITS DUMB" doesn't mean much when tweaking something like that might take 30 seconds to fix, but if its not a big problem and it hasnt been brought up because it isn't gamebreaking....no one cares. We are still rushing forward fixing what we can for right now.

For example, we just got 100% control of ledgegrab boxes.

LOL you must be joking...read through the last few pages again...i think you just take criticism too personally...

all I'm trying to do is ensure this project is well received by the masses...you're trying to alienate your main audience by putting in things like AGT...come on now, it's really silly and you must recognize this, you're just trying to defend it because you're used to it and you feel like I'm attacking you when I attack the project...it's nothing personal I swear <3

you guys can't take criticism well at all
what do you expect to receive when you take on a project like this

 

[Wind Owl]

At this point I am sure you are a) trolling, b) stingers, or c) both.

 

[iLink]

f) Reread my post, I said nothing about techniques that are similar to wave-dashing. I said there are techniques which make up for the lack of it. For example, rolling is much more useful, you can DACUS, pivot grab, etc...

Please tell me I read this wrong...

Did you just say rolls are more useful then wavedashing?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

At this point I am sure you are a) trolling, b) stingers, or c) both.

proved my point
^he said rolls are more useful in general

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Please tell me I read this wrong...

Did you just say rolls are more useful then wavedashing?

I meant "Rolling is much more useful in Brawl than it is in Melee".

 

[Sterowent]

you proved his too, you know.

about lucario: i saw lee playing him, but i remember 1000 years ago you guys mentioned giving him a quick grab (edit: much like when its grounded) with his sideB, something lee didn't do because (edit: aerial) sideB in brawl isn't so useful. is the quick grab still in?
oh, and you guys are keeping his double upB from the ground, right?

 

[iLink]

Rolls are generally NOT useful in most situations compared to wavedashing. I would gladly give up Lucario's roll for a wavedash any day. Also the link leads to a none existent wiki page.


Edit in response to an edit: No, rolling is not more effective in brawl compared to melee. The only reason you think that is because you don't have the option to wavedash in brawl. Rolling is still a bad habit in brawl and you rarely see them at higher level play depending on the character.

 

[stingers]

At this point I am sure you are a) trolling, b) stingers, or c) both.

Lol...massive paranoia, wow. That's not me, but I do approve of his posts...he see's things the way they are, something you guys are afraid of =/

 

[[TSON]]

you guys can't take criticism well at all
what do you expect to receive when you take on a project like this

no, you can't recognize a troll. every single time he posts in this thread he does so rudely. and then when one of the devs calls him out he goes

all I'm trying to do is ensure this project is well received by the masses

we aren't going to let people dismiss things like this if they haven't even played the finished game competitively yet. we would take it seriously if he wasn't a troll, and had actually used it before whining about it. we're going to put our focus where it's needed for now.

kk.

EDIT:

well guys, think about it.

the goal of this object is to carry over everything from melee into brawl...so if you're adding UNIVERSAL things that weren't in melee already, they do need some sort of explanation for why they're there

glad to know you read the op btw

 

[Sterowent]

i'm kinda confused about why the response of 'Melee 2.0' isn't a valid one. i mean, sequels to most fighters keep the spirit and core gameplay over the years, evolving or tweaking the new installments to add or at least try new mechanics. am i wrong? isn't that what you mean, P:MBRers? i know the second post explains some things, but this specific response may have its own implications.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Edit in response to an edit: No, rolling is not more effective in brawl compared to melee. The only reason you think that is because you don't have the option to wavedash in brawl. Rolling is still a bad habit in brawl and you rarely see them at higher level play depending on the character.

I guess if we are going by your logic, Marth is actually just as good in Brawl as he is in Melee, the only reason people think otherwise is because Brawl Marth can't wavedash.

BECAUSE of the lack of Wave-dashing, it makes Rolling better, duh. Also, you aren't punished as badly in general for rolls.

Try and count how many times Ally rolls in this match, I got 6 in the first minute, and most of the time he was too busy being knocked all over the place by Brood to roll anyway.

 

[Wind Owl]

Most retail sequels completely change specifics of characters' moves just because they can. We're not doing that, but this is a sequel, and we are aiming to be a more complete and balanced one.

Also, about rolls, they do have less frames of lag in Brawl than in Melee, so they are objectively better in that game.

 

[stingers]

TSON, get your holier-then-thou crap out of here. I have played it. Aerial glide tossing (and air dodged cancelled zairs) are both ********. They move faster and further then wavedashing or glide tossing, two established techniques from the official games that most of us are used to. And, for the characters with ready access to them, you're basically obsoleting the older methods of movement respectively.

Can you tell us what changes this will have on the metagame? Or how the melee die-hards will respond to it? No, because you just made changes arbitrarily and without thinking of the consequences, and you can't handle it when people call you out on them so you just resort to calling them trolls. It's despicable, and the lack of professionalism from 99% of the PMBR is astounding and disheartening.

 

[iLink]

I guess if we are going by your logic, Marth is actually just as good in Brawl as he is in Melee, the only reason people think otherwise is because Brawl Marth can't wavedash.

BECAUSE of the lack of Wave-dashing, it makes Rolling better, duh. Also, you aren't punished as badly in general for rolls.

Try and count how many times Ally rolls in this match, I got 6 in the first minute, and most of the time he was too busy being knocked all over the place by Brood to roll anyway.

I honestly fail to see how that marth example relates to what I said.

Lets say I had a 5$ bill and a 1$ bill. I suddenly lost my 5$ bill, does that make my 1$ better? No, it just means I have to make due with the 1$.

I also don't understand why you posted that video... he only rolled within the first minute and never really did it again except on another occasion where he got grabbed for it. He could have gotten severely punished for rolling right in front of olimar's face like that but lucked out.

 

[Strong Badam]

stingers most of your crit isn't very constructive. "agt is ****ing ******** remove it" srsly. you'd probably get more headway if you were a bit more constructive and offered other reasons as to why agt shouldn't be kept. the at as a whole adds depth to the game and increases the offensive use of items for characters like link, toon link, diddy, peach, etc. the fact that AGT wasn't in melee doesn't mean that AGT is bad and cannot exist in the Project M environment. like, i'm pretty sure we're not going to code DK and Samus to where they lose all of their neutral b charge if they're hit during their up-b. this isn't because this project sucks and is steering too far away from melee, but because melee isn't 100% perfect, and the depth & speed of the gameplay in melee itself is what inspires and drives Project M in development.

the superboost from air dodge -> zair or air dodge -> item throw i'm pretty sure can be toned down to how it should be. AGT specifically refers to air dodge -> item throw and doesn't need the superboost to be an interesting AT, so if it's the ridiculous speedgain from it that bugs you, then I agree with you.

 

[kaizo13]

i can't believe devs are taking their time to deal with these trolls and pointless arguments o-O

you guys should learn from Shanus

 

[stingers]

you'd probably get more headway if you were a bit more constructive and offered other reasons as to why agt shouldn't be kept.

...

Aerial glide tossing (and air dodged cancelled zairs) are both ********. They move faster and further then wavedashing or glide tossing, two established techniques from the official games that most of us are used to. And, for the characters with ready access to them, you're basically obsoleting the older methods of movement respectively.

totally proving strong bad doesn't actually read what other people type...

 

[Strong Badam]

i responded to that part.

the superboost from air dodge -> zair or air dodge -> item throw i'm pretty sure can be toned down to how it should be. AGT specifically refers to air dodge -> item throw and doesn't need the superboost to be an interesting AT, so if it's the ridiculous speedgain from it that bugs you, then I agree with you.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I love how for some reason I have to provide reasons that Brawl is good lest my comments get called baseless, foolish and snide, but no one else has any reason that Brawl is bad other than "it's not Melee".

I can't prove Brawl isn't bad by the way

Good thing no one asked you to, huh?

, because, like I said, it is SUBJECTIVE. But I'll play your stupid game:

I would hardly consider asking for support beyond internal logic and begging the question to be a stupid game.

a.) ...
c) There is a huge amount of extra features for casual players. HUGE amount.

None of which I had inquired about, and none of which is relevant to the discussion at hand, but notably true, however detracting it may be.

d) There is a large amount of diverse characters and stages which makes up for anything removed from Melee easily.

Entirely subjective and also not relevant to the topics I asked.

e) L-Cancelling is fake depth because it isn't actual depth, just the illusion of it. I am in no way suggesting that it should be removed from P:M like some before me were, but what depth does it add to the game other than the situational "tilt shield to screw up opponent sometimes"?

I am fully aware of what the definition of "Fake" is. All you've done in this circular explanation is define the word. Explain what makes it give an "illusion" of depth. Between characters landing animations altering their hurtboxes, to the point of great benifite for some, such as peach's fair, a required amount of practice using the character to fully utilize the technique, having to take hitlag into account while using it, and the fact that no human, no matter how trained, will be able to do it every single time, I don't see where fake depth exists.

f) Reread my post, I said nothing about techniques that are similar to wave-dashing. I said there are techniques which make up for the lack of it. For example, rolling is much more useful, you can DACUS, pivot grab, etc...

"Wavedashing has been replaced by other movement methods."

What movement methods replaced wavedashing?

g) Non-Universal Techniques: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Techniques_(SSBB)

Again, I am aware that character specific AT's exist. You give a link to a compilation of all of them as if you think I'm unknowlegable of their existence, and as if their mere existence provides any depth to the game. Nearly every one of the "advanced" techniques Brawl characters have serve next to no practical purpose in their and the whole game's metagames. While a handful of them [e.g. Dragonic Reverse, Ness's "S" PK Jump, Peach's sliding and ledge canceled turnip plucks] do require a trained hand to perform and do help these characters in a match, much more of them are either gimmicky tricks that require very little arbitrary skill and do not actually help the character [FoG, ISJR, most things involving "canceling" moves that cause special fall by landing before the fall starts], or they are very simple techniques that compose most of a character's metagame in themselves [Diddy's GT, DeDeDe's chain grabs, Falco's lasers and aerial side B]. Outside of a few high tier characters, the game almost entirely comes down to still playing in the most defensive way you can and it will likely stay this way for Brawl's lifetime.

So I'll ask you again, What character specific techniques add any actual depth to their metagame in real play? And this time give me an answer, not a link that tells me nothing I didn't already know.

Try again please.

I'm sorry what? What do you mean by, "Try again please"? This comment seems completely unnecessary and very condescending, and I do not much like it at all. Your post would have been just as functional with this comment's absence.

 

[iLink]

...



totally proving strong bad doesn't actually read what other people type...

I'm almost sure he means that you aren't constructive at the time you say something is dumb/bad/******.

 

[stingers]

dumb/bad/******** are just very intensive descriptors I use to express myself

and yeah strong bad I saw your edit...after I posted lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I honestly fail to see how that marth example relates to what I said.

Lets say I had a 5$ bill and a 1$ bill. I suddenly lost my 5$ bill, does that make my 1$ better? No, it just means I have to make due with the 1$.

I also don't understand why you posted that video... he only rolled within the first minute and never really did it again except on another occasion where he got grabbed for it. He could have gotten severely punished for rolling right in front of olimar's face like that but lucked out.

The question wasn't whether it was better (which it is by the way, less punishable and less frames of lag in Brawl), but whether it was more EFFECTIVE. Which it is, as wave-dashing makes rolling a less effective choice.

I posted that video to show how much more players roll in Brawl than in Melee. I could post hundreds more examples, in fact, that one was just the first video in my youtube subscriptions.

And lemme get this straight, you are criticizing a decision (that worked) made by ALLY, one of the best Snakes in the world, by saying that he "lucked out" with Brood, one of the best olimars in the world, not punishing him?

Good thing no one asked you to, huh?

Allow me to quote you: "This comment seems completely unnecessary. Your post would have been just as functional with this comment's absence".

I would hardly consider asking for support beyond internal logic and begging the question to be a stupid game.

I would, when the matter is, again, SUBJECTIVE. It is a stupid game to respond to your queries because they are all based on opinion.

None of which I had inquired about, and none of which is relevant to the discussion at hand, but notably true, however detracting it may be.

Sorry, do I need you to inquire about something for me to state it? It is relevant to the discussion at hand: Is Brawl a good game. The features listed make it a good game.

Entirely subjective and also not relevant to the topics I asked.

Good luck coming up with a non-subjective argument as to why a game is good -__-. Again, doesn't need to be a response to you for me to say it.

I am fully aware of what the definition of "Fake" is. All you've done in this circular explanation is define the word. Explain what makes it give an "illusion" of depth. Between characters landing animations altering their hurtboxes, to the point of great benifite for some, such as peach's fair, a required amount of practice using the character to fully utilize the technique, having to take hitlag into account while using it, and the fact that no human, no matter how trained, will be able to do it every single time, I don't see where fake depth exists.

Depth is difficult to define. But I do not think that having to factor in a few variables which only change very slightly to perform a technique which should ALWAYS be used is very deep. It's just a tedious extra step to doing something. Would you consider Special Moves more deep if they required an extra button press? This is different from, for example, Wavedashing. Which shouldn't be used in every situation, is more difficult, and actually requires to take into account a large amount of widely varying variables.

"Wavedashing has been replaced by other movement methods."

What movement methods replaced wavedashing?

DACUS, Rolling, Pivot Grabs, Running Shields, everything I already said.

Again, I am aware that character specific AT's exist. You give a link to a compilation of all of them as if you think I'm unknowlegable of their existence, and as if their mere existence provides any depth to the game. Nearly every one of the "advanced" techniques Brawl characters have serve next to no practical purpose in their and the whole game's metagames. While a handful of them [e.g. Dragonic Reverse, Ness's "S" PK Jump, Peach's sliding and ledge canceled turnip plucks] do require a trained hand to perform and do help these characters in a match, much more of them are either gimmicky tricks that require very little arbitrary skill and do not actually help the character [FoG, ISJR, most things involving "canceling" moves that cause special fall by landing before the fall starts], or they are very simple techniques that compose most of a character's metagame in themselves [Diddy's GT, DeDeDe's chain grabs, Falco's lasers and aerial side B]. Outside of a few high tier characters, the game almost entirely comes down to still playing in the most defensive way you can and it will likely stay this way for Brawl's lifetime.

I gave a link to them so I didn't have to write all of them down, but nice try at taking a jab at me anyway.

Playing defensively ≠ Lack of depth btw, just making sure you realise that.

So I'll ask you again, What character specific techniques add any actual depth to their metagame in real play? And this time give me an answer, not a link that tells me nothing I didn't already know.

Only the ones you already know about, obviously, now you tell me how many character-specific advanced techniques are there in Melee by comparison.

I'm sorry what? What do you mean by, "Try again please"? This comment seems completely unnecessary and very condescending, and I do not much like it at all. Your post would have been just as functional with this comment's absence.

I was trying to sound condescending. Get over it.

 

[Strong Badam]

yea i edit my posts when i notice you post while i post then you post while i edit and barhg

players roll more in brawl because the % of frames they're invincible during a roll is generally higher than that of melee rolls, and there's a large lack of shield damage & shield stun in brawl, so if their shield is hit it's typically not a big deal. brawl gameplay typically lends itself toward more defensive play as well; rolling is generally a more defensive movement option whilst wavedashing typically has neutral to offensive applications in movement.
tl;dr the amount of movement options available in vBrawl are much lower due to a lack of dash dancing and wavedashing, regardless of smaller changes or options in movement.

 

[[TSON]]

TSON, get your holier-then-thou crap out of here. I have played it. Aerial glide tossing (and air dodged cancelled zairs) are both ********. They move faster and further then wavedashing or glide tossing, two established techniques from the official games that most of us are used to. And, for the characters with ready access to them, you're basically obsoleting the older methods of movement respectively.

you see there's this magical thing
im sure you've heard of it
it's called lag.

lag on landing, lag on the end of the animation, lag, lag, lag.
if you actually did your research you would know that AGT and zair out of airdodge have so much more lag than wavedashing that they're good for approaches and only that.
nothing you have said in this thread has ever been credible. what you do is not going to change anything unless your antics change. you don't have a point; stop trying to prove nothing. i really don't enjoy arguing with you, and neither does anyone else.

Can you tell us what changes this will have on the metagame? Or how the melee die-hards will respond to it?

can you?

No

didn't think so.

You just made changes arbitrarily and without thinking of the consequences, and you can't handle it when people call you out on them so you just resort to calling them trolls. It's despicable, and the lack of professionalism from 99% of the PMBR is astounding and disheartening.

we have frame experts, melee top players, and a significant number of playtesters in PMBR. don't tell us that we make any change on a whim. ever. everything undergoes extensive playtesting, especially if a big event like APEX is coming up soon.
you ARE a troll. don't even try to play innocent. you're a very good troll too.
you're the reason we're acting unprofessional.

ralph pls go

 

[iLink]

The question wasn't whether it was better (which it is by the way, less punishable and less frames of lag in Brawl), but whether it was more EFFECTIVE. Which it is, as wave-dashing makes rolling a less effective choice.

I posted that video to show how much more players roll in Brawl than in Melee. I could post hundreds more examples, in fact, that one was just the first video in my youtube subscriptions.

And lemme get this straight, you are criticizing a decision (that worked) made by ALLY, one of the best Snakes in the world, by saying that he "lucked out" with Brood, one of the best olimars in the world, not punishing him?

Are you even reading what you type? You said "BECAUSE of the lack of Wave-dashing, it makes Rolling better, duh." not that rolls are more effective because of the lack of wavedashing. Which still brings me back to my example of the money, just replace "better" with the words "more effective". I do acknowledge that rolls are less punishable in brawl. However that doesn't mean they aren't still a poor choice in a lot of situations.

And yes, I am criticizing his decision that DIDN'T work out. You are praising him way too much like if he can't make any mistake or anything. If you were watching the same match, it looked like he was thinking that brood was going to move forward which would leave Ally behind him (you could tell by the buffered jab) but it didn't work. Brood obviously didn't expect such a critical error on his part which is why I said Ally lucked out.