Project M Social Thread

[standardtoaster]

just finished battle kid fortress of peril. freaking hard game

 

[GaretHax]

This is a strange little bit of hypocrisy. You seem to dislike space animals because they are too strong and/or have too many advantages over the cast, but you would be fine with and even hope that other characters end up stronger than them? Sounds like a pretty jaded viewpoint to me. No offense intended I just can't seem to wrap my head around the logic there. It would be great if PM could succeed at raising everyone to spacie level, however some are bound to lag a little behind. If a few characters manage to surpass the spacies great, but intentionally designing said characters to do so, while a fair portion of the cast is still, perhaps intentionally, worse seems... silly. Also Ike wasn't all that interesting pre-patch if you ask me.

 

[SpiderMad]

People don't know half the general intricacies of what the changes listed for Ike were besides the ones they never even mentioned: but I realized defending a buffer of 1 frame and light press air dodge is 10x more important to me. I also can't even search for old posts I made about Ike before the SB change, so there's that.

Also way to go sparking this off from me asking for the old demos, which I didn't even get =p, jk no rush Gunblaze. I still need someone with 2.1 wifi though.

 

[Vashimus]

This is a strange little bit of hypocrisy. You seem to dislike space animals because they are too strong and/or have too many advantages over the cast, but you would be fine with and even hope that other characters end up stronger than them? Sounds like a pretty jaded viewpoint to me. No offense intended I just can't seem to wrap my head around the logic there. It would be great if PM could succeed at raising everyone to spacie level, however some are bound to lag a little behind. If a few characters manage to surpass the spacies great, but intentionally designing said characters to do so, while a fair portion of the cast is still, perhaps intentionally, worse seems... silly. Also Ike wasn't all that interesting pre-patch if you ask me.

While I agree that intentionally trying to make a character more ridiculous than spacies is wrong, I don't see how that logic doesn't make sense. The spacies aren't gonna be nerfed ever. They're just not. The only glimmer of hope left people look to is simply buffing other characters.

 

[DMG]

You could nerf Spacies any day of the week. Good luck getting any of those players to come back to this game though when people ***** about the tiniest little things that feel "off" about them so far that aren't concrete nerfs. Boo Falco Laser timings feel different, boo Upb is janky, etc. Not that those are illegitimate complaints, but people already get up in arms over the tiny things. Imagine any speed change to Shine, like if M2K found out later on that Shine was changed to Frame 2. People would ****in flip.

Reality is that Spacies are going to remain this way until 2+ years AFTER every single character has been released and refined a bit. And even after that period of time people probably will just accept them and play on. In the meanwhile, you can either try and stop the rest of the cast from achieving that shining glory and try to make them balanced nicely, or make balance revolve around the fact that everyone is as good as Spacies. The second option is a gamble, frankly it's a bad idea because Spacies do lame things and to outlame them would be to make one god damn annoying game. Second option would also be incredibly painful and it would be very likely that characters would still "lag behind". Like even super buffed Ness may be behind still, or x character we thought was fine now looks ****ty because Falcon is the new Sonic. etc

Garet if that was directed at me, I'm agreeing with most of what you're saying. I don't see the point in letting Ike or Lucario or anyone also reign high with Spacies, when we still have stuff like Squirtle in this game. Having really really over the top strong characters doesn't improve gameplay or balance if a majority of characters still lag behind, which is true and would be true if we just kept 2.1 Ike Lucario and decided to start buffing Pit Mario Marth etc. We'd still have Ness and D3 and the blue guy. I don't feel the pain of people who mained those characters because it's like they have never lived a day in the life of a Squirtle main, ya know? Cool I'm glad you had fun doing really dumb **** with Lucario and winning. Props, sorry he isn't Mag****inNeto on crack anymore.

 

[standardtoaster]

 

[Oro?!]

If you won with Ike and Lucario in 2.1, chances are it wasn't all you that was doing the winning.

 

[9bit_alt]

Johns

 

[traffic.]

[00:44] <Oro> traffic was it you that said you listened to sonata arctica

Yeah I was a huge fan of them ten years ago/

 

[Bombitty]

Reality is that Spacies are going to remain this way until 2+ years AFTER Smash 9 has been released

fixed

 

[Vashimus]

If you won with Ike and Lucario in 2.1, chances are it wasn't all you that was doing the winning.

You just wait till metroid gets here.

 

[9bit_alt]

Catering to the Melee players is holding Project M back.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If you won with Ike and Lucario in 2.1, chances are it wasn't all you that was doing the winning.

So Fox and Falco wins right now shouldn't count either right?

 

[Oro?!]

A character can be worse and still cause more degenerative gameplay than a better character. There is a lot of interaction that happens when you fight spacies. There isn't much when Lucario dash attacks open space/your shield/you and has the same effect of either going unpunished or granting a free sideB and combo. Ike and Lucario both made shields an unusable tactic. Ike's shield damage/stun multiplier was removed and probably overnerfed in every other regard. Lucario's sideB/downB aka the moves with no counterplay were slowed down.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Has more to do with the element of surprise I think. Fox and Falco have been around since Melee, while Ike and Lucario had just received massive buffs to be on par with them. With no evolved metagame around them yet, sure, people playing them in the beginning should win somewhat easier. But that doesn't mean it'll stay like that.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Question, is there any benefit to power-shielding a regular attack? If you pull it off can you act out of shield quicker or something?

It's fine to make everyone good, but you don't go through the process painfully patch after patch, slowly.

Isn't that exactly the way to do it? The point was to design every character to be on melee top tier level. So you make a design, try it out in one demo, see where it goes, and make another decision after that. It'll be that some characters don't turn out good enough, you can't expect them to get it right on the first try for everyone. But when they do get a few characters to melee top tier level, they shouldn't reverse progress and nerf them just because the rest of the cast isn't up there.

To be fair I agree with a select few of the nerfs Ike got, but not the majority of them

 

[Zef]

https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/statuses/335416341957844992 whos ready

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's still a major difference between Fox / Falco and buffed up Brawl characters. Sure Ike's Side B got a little ridiculous perhaps, but he shouldn't have to be nerfed, just tweaked. Aether has a lot of potential to become an awesome move for example. And what about changing Ike's Neutral B to a projectile perhaps?

Bowser seems like he could use even more weight so that he cannot be so easily chain grabbed at lower %s. More Super Armor on Up B would also help him I think.

Diddy could use more aerial speed so he doesn't get camped so bad by Falco and the like.

Just a few suggestions from what I've seen.

@Everyone here: Come and visit the Smash 4 speculation threads.

 

[Jolteon]

Streaming Project M right from Heart of Gaming! Feat Professor Pro, Alpha Dash, Jolteon and Fuzzyness.

http://www.twitch.tv/thewonderpark

 

[standardtoaster]

Uh, yeah sanity. Powershielding like that allows you to do any ground move out of it except dash/walk ofc.

 

[GunBlaze]

There's still a major difference between Fox / Falco and buffed up Brawl characters. Sure Ike's Side B got a little ridiculous perhaps, but he shouldn't have to be nerfed, just tweaked. Aether has a lot of potential to become an awesome move for example. And what about changing Ike's Neutral B to a projectile perhaps?

NO. JUST NO.

Bowser seems like he could use even more weight so that he cannot be so easily chain grabbed at lower %s. More Super Armor on Up B would also help him I think.

Won't help at all.
.

Diddy could use more aerial speed so he doesn't get camped so bad by Falco and the like.

Pffft.

 

[Yung Mei]

There's still a major difference between Fox / Falco and buffed up Brawl characters. Sure Ike's Side B got a little ridiculous perhaps, but he shouldn't have to be nerfed, just tweaked. Aether has a lot of potential to become an awesome move for example. And what about changing Ike's Neutral B to a projectile perhaps?

Bowser seems like he could use even more weight so that he cannot be so easily chain grabbed at lower %s. More Super Armor on Up B would also help him I think.

Diddy could use more aerial speed so he doesn't get camped so bad by Falco and the like.

Just a few suggestions from what I've seen.

@Everyone here: Come and visit the Smash 4 speculation threads.

no .

 

[Kati]

Catering to the Melee players is holding Project M back.

It's a balancing act. The melee pros have to be catered to as they have already proven to be dedicated smash players with formidable knowledge and tournament participation; Likewise, by keeping the melee characters the way they are, the metagame can still be understood to a degree, which I'm sure helps the developers in their ongoing task to redesign the brawl newcomers. Once we have every character done, then changes to the melee characters can be justified and understood by everyone with less risk of alienating the melee players.

 

[Diddy Kong]

 

[Oro?!]

It's a slippery slope when you are trying to buff characters up to a certain point, while at the same time trying to keep them from having tactics that are abusable to the point of being lame or un fun.

 

[Vashimus]

Isn't that exactly the way to do it? The point was to design every character to be on melee top tier level. So you make a design, try it out in one demo, see where it goes, and make another decision after that. It'll be that some characters don't turn out good enough, you can't expect them to get it right on the first try for everyone. But when they do get a few characters to melee top tier level, they shouldn't reverse progress and nerf them just because the rest of the cast isn't up there.

I want to know where people have gotten this almost mythical idea that the PMBR's goal all along was to make everyone Melee top tier. If that was the case, there would not be a reason to nerf anybody. Fox and Falco are the two main top tiers in Melee, and they are both ridiculous in that game. If you want to make everyone Melee top tier (so, on par with the spacies), you would have to intentionally design the characters to be just as ridiculous as them. Why would they do that? That is essentially making another Brawl Minus. The goal is to make a balanced roster of characters. That is, as balanced as they could possibly make it; a cast that can go toe-to-toe with each other fairly evenly. Oro is right. Making everyone Melee top tier while ALSO making sure they are balanced and not silly in design is virtually impossible.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Shoutout to Strong Bad. Your DK is so sexy that I'm inspired to try to learn the ape over the summer.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's always nice to know i've got fans haha. Glad I was able to inspire you; it's quite lonely being one of the only DK players in the metagame.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dude I'm a longtime fan to! Your DK = sexiest ever.

 

[UltiMario]

If you won with Ike and Lucario in 2.1, chances are it wasn't all you that was doing the winning.

Ike in 2.1 was still worse than Spacies. The sword hitbox system change really is just good game design that should've been there to begin with, but he didn't really need any other of the nerfs that he got in 2.5. He probably should've just gotten the hitbox change and some minor buffs to compensate for it and would've been fine.

Lucario admittedly had some objective flaws that created broken elements about him, but really he could've just had those patched up and had some tweaks on his other moves in order to allow him to play the same bar stuff like unblockables.

Neither needed an overhaul to the extent 2.5 gave them, though.

More characters need to be on the level that 2.1 Ike and 2.1 Lucario (minus the bull****) were at. If that were the case, this game would actually reach an incredible level of balance. EVERYONE being as good as spacies.

 

[Oro?!]

Ike definitely had some very silly things about him. All of his sword attacks were safe on shield do to a hitlag multiplier, all of his tilts had very small punish windows on whiff and were safe on block, and his FSmash would kill with good DI at around 30-40%. Ike had guaranteed combos into FSmash through Dair and Utilt, both of which were changed and cannot happen anymore. Ike was really braindead in that you could throw out hitboxes and unless they whiffed you were going to be safe. Only faster characters could really punish Ike's whiffs as well while on the ground, and being in the air against Ike is still a death sentence in 2.5.

Ike and Lucario were similar in that they broke a shield system. Even Fox and Falco pressure have massive counterplay in shield. It's all about reading timings of their attacks and seeing if they are doing stationary pressure, waiting more, or wavedashing aftershine. There are ways around every spacie mixup and it's an incredibly complex pressure/reaction system. When Ike and Lucario hit your shield in 2.1, you were stuck there until they were done with you or you put yourself in a terrible position. Given time there might have been ways to deal with both of them, but the skill floor for their playstyles made the game feel very unrewarding. Why practice some intricate character when Lucario dash attack solves every matchup by itself.

Edit: Ike and Lucario are still really good, they just don't have skill floors that are low to the point where you can pick either and succeed without actually being good with them. They both possess either the same or a higher skill ceiling than they did in their 2.5 iterations. Ike might actually end up better than he was in 2.1 if he got a couple overnerfs retweaked. Ike's sword system makes his character way more intricate, and could potentially turn him into an even better character. I can really only think of a couple of both Ikes and Lucarios that had any sort of dedication to their character in 2.1, and when 2.5 rolled around true colors were shown. Most people were picking them because they were easy as hell and good, not because they were going to take those characters anywhere.

I have a deep respect for players like Eggz or Metroid who are trying to single handedly create a metagame around a character that is considered unviable or having way too high of a skill floor to succeed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly, I wish they'd include Mewtwo instead of those homosexual eskimos in P:M. Also wouldn't mind seeing Olimar gone in favor of Mewtwo. Or while they're at it, why not remove both and have Mewtwo and Roy?

Probably won't happen but I'd wish.

 

[SmashShadow]

Really, the only thing I thought Lucario needed changing from 2.1 to 2.5 was his ridiculous dash attack, a slower down B(for Ganon's sake) and any universal changes like his pummel. As compensation he would have gotten the buffed 2.5 nair and usmash. They didn't need to slow his down B to the point it is now. It should be somewhere in the middle of 2.1 and 2.5.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I wish they'd include Mewtwo instead of those homosexual eskimos in P:M. Also wouldn't mind seeing Olimar gone in favor of Mewtwo. Or while they're at it, why not remove both and have Mewtwo and Roy?

Probably won't happen but I'd wish.

Believe it or not, there are people who actually like those characters and want to play as them. It would be unfair to eliminate them.

I also think people sometimes forget how unique those two characters are when they say they don't care if those two make a return. Yes, it's difficult to design and balance them, but I feel like their inclusion makes Smash a more interesting, diverse, and appealing game.

...Jigglypuff, on the other hand, can go die and I wouldn't care ;-)

 

[Juushichi]

I also am looking forward to playing ICies in PM. So forget you Diddy Kong. ;_;

No one cares about Mew-2 anymore, now it's about that Mew-3 life. Nostalgia only goes so far. What are you going to ask for next? Roy?

His game wasn't even good. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Vinnie confessed that he thinks the Ice Climbers are really stupid last night. But yeah, I guess they both have their fans. I just find their playstyles terrible. They are cool and unique ideas, but implemented horribly.

Much like Zelda / Sheik and Pokémon Trainer who are now (and dear Lord thank you for this) separated. Speaking of, do Zelda and Sheik have different Down B attacks now? If not, they should I feel.

Personally I'd hope they replace Sheik for Impa as a separate character in the next Smash.

FE6 was in my personal opinion the best GBA Fire Emblem. And Roy could work very cool as a semi-cloned Marth woth that Sword of Seals. He's looking awesome thus far in the Melee SD Remix, and so does Mewtwo. Hence I'd love playing as them in P:M to.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, Zelda and Sheik can still Transform into one another.

I do, however, like the idea of separating the two, giving them new Down B's, and "changing" Sheik into Impa. I just don't think the concept of switching between characters mid-match really works. Anyway, this is definitely not going to happen, but I wish it would.

Make it so devs! I COMMANDETH THEE!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Everybody hates me in the Smash 4 forums cause of my preference replacing Sheik with Impa. Great to see the first person here agree with me right away! Impa should have that barrier from the Skyward Sword cutscene for either Down or Side B. Impa also could use Deku Nuts, since they're items in Brawl after all.

Still think Mewtwo would be awesome.

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, people are afraid and resistant to change.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hopefully Sakurai won't give a **** about that though. It's now the perfect oppertunity to replace Sheik for Impa.