Project M Social Thread

[hotdogturtle]

Being FORCED to switch is an intrinsically flawed concept which cannot be fixed by any redesign. That's unacceptable in any game which aims to give you the greatest amount of control over your character.

 

[JOE!]

Didnt Brawl- fix that? I remember that you didn't swap on death unless you held shield or sumthin.

 

[Sync8699]

I have a friend who was particularly perplexed about the removal of the Pokemon Trainer, but more so because the ability to switch at will with the down-B was removed (and not the removal of being forced to switch by dying or getting "tired"). I agree that it was fun to switch characters at will (like with Sheik/Zelda), but I don't think having the Pokemon Trainer instead of Squirtle/Ivy/Char is a good idea.

Instead, there should be an option to do a "Pokemon Battle" where you can choose between Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard and switch between them at any time during battle using a particular button combination (like holding L & R and pressing a certain direction on the C-stick). Each player could get like 3 pokemon and fight on either Stadium or Stadium 2. The stamina factor could apply to all six pokemon instead of just Squirtle/Ivy/Char and even the elemental resistance/weakness aspect could be brought back. A long shot, but it would be mega ultra super fun.

 

[Evilagram]

Question, when Samus is brought back, will she have the super wavedash on her morph ball bombs and how will it work?

 

[peeup]

Being FORCED to switch is an intrinsically flawed concept which cannot be fixed by any redesign. That's unacceptable in any game which aims to give you the greatest amount of control over your character.

If that was the only problem, that's like, literally the easiest problem in the world to fix.

 

[Zef]

http://www.twitch.tv/CaptainZef# streaming PM with some friends

 

[Handorin]

Question, when Samus is brought back, will she have the super wavedash on her morph ball bombs and how will it work?

When I was in the pmbr, I tested it for shanus. He got it working the same way it does in melee. I can't say whether or not it will stay with the character now though.

 

[Isprayaxe]

I have a friend who was particularly perplexed about the removal of the Pokemon Trainer, but more so because the ability to switch at will with the down-B was removed (and not the removal of being forced to switch by dying or getting "tired"). I agree that it was fun to switch characters at will (like with Sheik/Zelda), but I don't think having the Pokemon Trainer instead of Squirtle/Ivy/Char is a good idea.

Instead, there should be an option to do a "Pokemon Battle" where you can choose between Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard and switch between them at any time during battle using a particular button combination (like holding L & R and pressing a certain direction on the C-stick). Each player could get like 3 pokemon and fight on either Stadium or Stadium 2. The stamina factor could apply to all six pokemon instead of just Squirtle/Ivy/Char and even the elemental resistance/weakness aspect could be brought back. A long shot, but it would be mega ultra super fun.

This sounds freakin awesome, hopefully they put this in ssb4!

 

[leafbarrett]

IIRC, transformation time is slightly based on the actual loading of the character, and it's common to see slight differences of transformation time. Im guessing this means that the game needs that time to load the character, and sometimes not even that is enough. I thought about what it would be like if both were loaded at the same time, but I believe that would start to lag.

The Wii isn't THAT powerful, and it runs off of a disc.

Melee did it with Zelda/Sheik, did it not?

 

[GunBlaze]

Yes, it did.

 

[leafbarrett]

Then why can't Brawl?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's probably significantly more to load at once.

 

[GunBlaze]

Then why can't Brawl?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Welp

That's that

 

[GP&B]

It's like how Brawl has that 1-frame momentum delay issue. No one gets why it's like that.

Although in this case, it's a dual-layered disc which does have a significant impact on loading times.

 

[Sneak8288]

I seen Emblem Lord say something pretty interesting on facebook when people were brainstorming info on what they would like to see in the next smash. I haven't been keeping up with changes lately but what if you guys were able to code something like a percentage gain when someone starts to plank or grab the ledge too many times in a row? Not sure if someone might have suggested it already but it seemed like a pretty good idea.

 

[Vashimus]

Whatever happened to BrandX?

 

[Spiffykins]

I seen Emblem Lord say something pretty interesting on facebook when people were brainstorming info on what they would like to see in the next smash. I haven't been keeping up with changes lately but what if you guys were able to code something like a percentage gain when someone starts to plank or grab the ledge too many times in a row? Not sure if someone might have suggested it already but it seemed like a pretty good idea.

The invincibility is already 1 frame less than Melee, iirc. Percentage gain would be a bad idea, not to mention it would make absolutely no sense. The only thing I could maybe get behind is diminishing return on invincibility in 1 frame increments after, say, 10 grabs in a row. Otherwise, a ledge grab limit is good enough in most cases.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/13/40...thrilling?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co
oops

 

[Jolteon]

To me, it seems like the writer of that article took what Sakurai said out of context.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Wow that's dumb, maybe Smash 4 will be worse than we thought... or at least online play will suck.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You all need to work on your reading comprehension.

The interviewer whined about "no items" and the like, but Sakurai only said that they (the developers) messed up. He mentioned the limitations of the system's online model (probably about the input lag and the Wii's lack of ability to patch the game post-release, maybe the matchmaking system) and the fact that you can't play in a variety of ways, and he's right.

He's not lamenting people's lack of item play--He's talking about the overcentralizing defensive mechanics and burst range options, which are (or potentially are, depending on who you ask) a problem offline, but the issue is made significantly worse by the netcode (where even with a perfect connection, you have at least six frames of input lag, and usually much more than that). He means that the only way to reliably compete online is by not approaching, and that players can't use any other strategy, such as strong offensive pressure, because any other strategy is tantamount to making sure you lose while online.

I commend him for being able to acknowledge that they messed up, and it gives me hope for the next game.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

It sounded more like he wanted to fix the 'problems' presented in Brawl's metagame.

 

[Wizzrobe]

You all need to work on your reading comprehension.

The interviewer whined about "no items" and the like, but Sakurai only said that they (the developers) messed up. He mentioned the limitations of the system's online model (probably about the input lag and the Wii's lack of ability to patch the game post-release, maybe the matchmaking system) and the fact that you can't play in a variety of ways, and he's right.

He's not lamenting people's lack of item play--He's talking about the overcentralizing defensive mechanics and burst range options, which are (or potentially are, depending on who you ask) a problem offline, but the issue is made significantly worse by the netcode (where even with a perfect connection, you have at least six frames of input lag, and usually much more than that). He means that the only way to reliably compete online is by not approaching, and that players can't use any other strategy, such as strong offensive pressure, because any other strategy is tantamount to making sure you lose while online.

I commend him for being able to acknowledge that they messed up, and it gives me hope for the next game.

So then why does he talk about the pro's taking the fun out of the game

 

[Vashimus]

That's all the interviewer's whining. And what is all this about the pros? Since when do Brawl tournament players play online?

The guy in the comment section named addMitt is spot on.

 

[Jolteon]

He doesn't, the article writer does.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The sentence you mention is not in quotations, meaning it's coming from the interviewer and not Sakurai. The only thing Sakurai says about the online gameplay itself (without the stuff where he directly talks about the online netcode):

The idea of Brawl's 'carefree brawling' motto was to get rid of as many restraints as possible and allow people to choose whatever play approach they liked," he wrote. "I'd like people to take some freer approaches with their gameplay, but the sort of battle style you describe in your letter is not interesting or fun. That's why I'll probably be thinking of a way to deal with that in the next game.

Like I said, he laments the fact that people can't use a variety of playstyles. It has nothing to do with skill level--It's just that if you have even a basic understanding of the game, a person who approaches you online is going to lose. The limitations caused by the netplay, combined with the incredibly powerful and overcentralizing defensive mechanics, make it so your strategies are effectively limited to "wait for the opponent to come at you" and "lose." He's right that it's that way online, and he's right that it isn't deep or entertaining to most people, skill level be damned.

 

[SunJester]

Smash bros with proper online play would be pretty cool, it'd give me an excuse to try and actually learn any advanced techniques (since the people I play with don't really bother with all that), not to mention it would broaden the Smash community.

I know someone is making something for Melee online, is there anyway that we might be able to use that for Project M online? It'd be mega hype if Project M had an actual good online mode.


Also sorry to beat a very, very dead horse, but I wish Sakurai would realize that you can still play Smash Bros at a very casual level even when its designed to be competitive. When I have some friends over who've barely played Smash at all, I turn on max pokeballs on items, or max items in general. The game becomes much more "Mario Kart" but it turns into something that gives even the worst opponent a bit of a chance. Even though this is with a competitive mod, you can have casual fun.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I have a friend who was particularly perplexed about the removal of the Pokemon Trainer, but more so because the ability to switch at will with the down-B was removed (and not the removal of being forced to switch by dying or getting "tired"). I agree that it was fun to switch characters at will (like with Sheik/Zelda), but I don't think having the Pokemon Trainer instead of Squirtle/Ivy/Char is a good idea.

Instead, there should be an option to do a "Pokemon Battle" where you can choose between Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard and switch between them at any time during battle using a particular button combination (like holding L & R and pressing a certain direction on the C-stick). Each player could get like 3 pokemon and fight on either Stadium or Stadium 2. The stamina factor could apply to all six pokemon instead of just Squirtle/Ivy/Char and even the elemental resistance/weakness aspect could be brought back. A long shot, but it would be mega ultra super fun.

If that was the only problem, that's like, literally the easiest problem in the world to fix.

Thanks for your input. As PMBR member `daze has recent quit Smash in favor of Randomized Pokemon, the next version of Project M will be implementing a feature which allows Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle to switch to a teammate, chosen randomly from any of those 3 along with Lucario, Pikachu, or Jigglypuff. You never know what you'll get next! This new feature will also take effect automatically when the Pokemon are KO'd, as they no longer have the will to fight. Enjoy!

 

[peeup]

Thanks for your input. As PMBR member `daze has recent quit Smash in favor of Randomized Pokemon, the next version of Project M will be implementing a feature which allows Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle to switch to a teammate, chosen randomly from any of those 3 along with Lucario, Pikachu, or Jigglypuff. You never know what you'll get next! This new feature will also take effect automatically when the Pokemon are KO'd, as they no longer have the will to fight. Enjoy!

Not sure why you quoted me there... I have no affiliation with what Sync said. Like what I said and what he said is nothing at all close to what he said. #ProjectMCommunity

 

[leelue]

I can sympathize with that, but personally I would rather have a totally unique character that is like nobody else in the cast even if it is less popular in the end.

Shelda's a thing

If that was the only problem, that's like, literally the easiest problem in the world to fix.

3 different characters = you're counterpicking like 1002% of the time you pick this character. It's inherently unfair.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah... basically the concept in the BR was 3 unique balanced characters or an amalgamation of 3 characters that are necessarily mediocre because of their ability to counterpick AFTER the character select screen. we went with the former and we get complaints from like, maybe one or two people every few months, and on the other hand there are several ivysaur and charizard mains that love those characters.

 

[leelue]

Lol squirtle left da **** out

 

[peeup]

But that's the potential that PT had. The ability to counterpick any character, but only for so much time, or only until he lost a stock, or only until some limitation was reached. Stamina was a ****ty way to balance it. Also, in Brawl, Squirtle is the best choice in like 90% of the MUs. So yes, I would have liked to see an amalgamation of necessarily mediocre characters. Because we already have 30 odd other unique balanced characters.

I just really feel like P:M could have balanced PT. And a balanced PT would be way more interesting then the three balanced Pokemon separated.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I can say I'm glad peeup is no where near the majority opinion

 

[Strong Badam]

they would have been more interesting to you. to very few others. we made the correct choice since we're aiming this at a large amount of people rather than 3. sorry you're in that group, but i'm sure you'll get over it.

 

[leelue]

But that's the potential that PT had. The ability to counterpick any character, but only for so much time, or only until he lost a stock, or only until some limitation was reached. yes, I would have liked to see an amalgamation of necessarily mediocre characters. Because we already have 30 odd other unique balanced characters.
.

A) Considering that a match can take only a minute and a half, the downside might never come up. You could switch to whoever has the bombdiggitty matchup and take 2 stocks easy peasy.
B) Considering that a match could end up on a big stage, you could incentivize someone into literally running away until the limit was reached. Sonic v PT would effectively be Sonic v whoever his best matchup is. Bad.
C) If the characters were mediocre, what are the odds that even the best matchup out of all of them against a particular character is 50/50? Do you have any idea the logistical nightmare this would be? They'd all have to be bad enough to not have you autocounterpick and be unfair, but be good enough to still be able to play.
D) The potential to counterpick every match including the matches that you win in a tournament setting is extremely unhealthy. It is not space worth exploring because it is inherently broken.

 

[metroid1117]

But that's the potential that PT had. The ability to counterpick any character, but only for so much time, or only until he lost a stock, or only until some limitation was reached. Stamina was a ****ty way to balance it. Also, in Brawl, Squirtle is the best choice in like 90% of the MUs. So yes, I would have liked to see an amalgamation of necessarily mediocre characters. Because we already have 30 odd other unique balanced characters.

I just really feel like P:M could have balanced PT. And a balanced PT would be way more interesting then the three balanced Pokemon separated.

I personally would've been very sad if PT was kept as a conglomeration of mediocre characters. I wasn't in the PMBR at the time, but after playing Charizard casually since Demo 2.1's release and then transitioning to being a Charizard main for the past 5-6 months, I fully support their decision to flesh out the individual Pokemon. Charizard feels incredibly fun and satisfying to play, and I can't imagine getting the same satisfaction from having to switch out every time I lost a stock or having to play with a Charizard that didn't have options that are as good as his current ones. I'm not flaming you or anything, I'm just sharing my opinion as a huge Charizard fan.

Also, I agree 100% with Reflex's interpretation of Sakurai's blog post.

 

[leelue]

Another thing, and a little less relevant:
It would take PT mains 3x the dedication to play the character. 3x the time for metagame development. That sucks.

 

[GunBlaze]

To learn 3 characters at once just sucks.