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Project M Social Thread

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Kink-Link5

Kink-Link5

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The_Guide said:
You know, Kink, you spend a lot of time talking about how Ike is under-powered. I'm kinda curious about what you think of his tournament dominance. Do you feel that people aren't exploiting Ike's flaws properly? If that is so, what would you recommend people do?
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Pick the characters that can abuse his slow start up easily, which is more of the cast than it would seem at a glance. His design isn't even polarising as far as matchups are concerned so much as it's polarising in "You have to do this to deal with Ike's bull****, but when you do, Ike's design is such that there's not really anything he can do about it." He is very limited in his baiting game compared to most of the cast, and has just as much, if not more, issue with the opponent being right on top of him as his opponent does with him on top.

Sex with Ike is very unpleasant for all parties involved.


I feel like the issue isn't that people aren't playing the matchup right, it's that his design and holes aren't being looked at properly besides players like HBox or, gosh who was the Sheik that dealt really well with Ike from a couple of months ago? Either way, a part of it is knowing precisely where Ike's effective range is and staying in the right "golden zone" that so few players have really found.

Like, remember when you were super new to smash and Falcon Punch would hit you or you'd shield it and be unable to do anything about it? And then you eventually figure out how to stay just perfectly out of the move's range that it grazes you and you get 12000 graze points and a 1-Up? That's where I feel players, including myself, have yet to reach with a 7 month old metagame.

But again, if Ike's getting a complete redesign instead of any changes at all for balancing sake that's fine.
 
OmegaMuffin

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UmbreonMow was the Sheik that trash talked Ike for days but didn't back up any of his claims with videos, inferring that Umbreon just likes to talk

#bangbang

That's why I feel that Ike is very good. When characters like Jiggs that can weave in an out decently and deal good damage in a few hits are his opponent, he gets beat out. But if he's all up in someone's face with his oddly shaped hammer, then it's difficult to do anything about it. Being in a shield with Ike is kinda scary imo.

If Sonic had better damage output, hell I'd say he had a good match-up against Ike. But since it takes Sonic 10 hits to do 50 damage and only takes Ike four, I can't say that at all

Plus I'm horrendously decent at this game so meh.
 
Kink-Link5

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Damage output is one of the least important things in a matchup in the longterm.


Well unless every character is equal in every other regard, then damage output is the only thing that serves as a reference point.

Sonic's poopy priority/disjoint is much more of a problem with his matchup, with every character. Ike's damage output is just a really nice multiplier to the weaknesses he gets to exploit. Remember the Weakness/Multiplier analysis approach? And just playing homo, etc., etc.? It comes down to an approach of playing in and around the neutral game above all else, about how you hitting the opponent and them not hitting you is the most vital and basic principle of the game.

This combo stuff is fun for now, just like it was in the 2006 Melee Metagame PM resembles at these early stages.

Long story short, it's way early to be calling characters broken/bad and examining matchups using the degree of reward a character gets as the primary focus. We don't even have a definitive and agreed-upon ruleset at this point lmao.
 
Smooth Criminal

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Kink-Link5 said:
Damage output is one of the least important things in a matchup in the longterm.


Well unless every character is equal in every other regard, then damage output is the only thing that serves as a reference point.

Sonic's poopy priority/disjoint is much more of a problem with his matchup, with every character. Ike's damage output is just a really nice multiplier to the weaknesses he gets to exploit. Remember the Weakness/Multiplier analysis approach? And just playing homo, etc., etc.? It comes down to an approach of playing in and around the neutral game above all else, about how you hitting the opponent and them not hitting you is the most vital and basic principle of the game.

This combo stuff is fun for now, just like it was in the 2006 Melee Metagame PM resembles at these early stages.

Long story short, it's way early to be calling characters broken/bad and examining matchups using the degree of reward a character gets as the primary focus. We don't even have a definitive and agreed-upon ruleset at this point lmao.
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^

Godlike.

Smooth Criminal
 
The_Guide

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Kink-Link5 said:
Pick the characters that can abuse his slow start up easily, which is more of the cast than it would seem at a glance. His design isn't even polarising as far as matchups are concerned so much as it's polarising in "You have to do this to deal with Ike's bull****, but when you do, Ike's design is such that there's not really anything he can do about it." He is very limited in his baiting game compared to most of the cast, and has just as much, if not more, issue with the opponent being right on top of him as his opponent does with him on top.

Sex with Ike is very unpleasant for all parties involved.


I feel like the issue isn't that people aren't playing the matchup right, it's that his design and holes aren't being looked at properly besides players like HBox or, gosh who was the Sheik that dealt really well with Ike from a couple of months ago? Either way, a part of it is knowing precisely where Ike's effective range is and staying in the right "golden zone" that so few players have really found.

Like, remember when you were super new to smash and Falcon Punch would hit you or you'd shield it and be unable to do anything about it? And then you eventually figure out how to stay just perfectly out of the move's range that it grazes you and you get 12000 graze points and a 1-Up? That's where I feel players, including myself, have yet to reach with a 7 month old metagame.

But again, if Ike's getting a complete redesign instead of any changes at all for balancing sake that's fine.
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Would you say the same thing about Ganondorf? A lot of their moves/character properties are pretty close. For instance, their Jab, Fair, and jumpstart are all very similar in both usage and frame data/hitboxes.
 
Kink-Link5

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Yes, yes I would. Ganon's design is really silly. His platform game and nature of his dash make a bit of difference in their neutral games, and I feel Ganon's design is overall a lot less problematic, but still very, very silly. DK too. Bowser's aight though.

No he's not I'm a terrible liar.

Actually

up B and, jump start up stupid slow, but up B at any point in it


eh

Yeah Bowser's aightish. Just a little bad, but not badly designed or anything.
 
DMG

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Ike has a LOT of range to help with the startup flaw and I feel that his bait/neutral game is underappreciated as if all the time Ike chooses the option to leap and Fair at someone too closely, and his opponent is the Shiek who Nairs him before it comes out. A good example would be what if you have to approach Ike? Where you are dealing with not just Fair approach, but Nairs in place tilts with low lag and nigh unpunishable on shield when spaced, the RAR or backward facing Bair since that's a quick option? Not to mention his grab game AND his range on grab are very solid. Those things never get talked about, or you get the quick "JUST CC HIS JAB AND **** HIM" which doesn't really address what I just mentioned lol.

I feel like that "accusation" that Ike gets his stuff handled to him during neutral is completely bogus and people only look at the possibilities of exploiting Ike's offensive options. Does Ike have issues super up close and tend to lose the speed wars vs the spacies the Shieks of this game? Hell yeah he does. But that's completely different than in a neutral ish zone, and it's not like those characters get a free pass on the way inside to Ike. Mario doesn't get to run train on Ike for simply beating him up close. Try running away and doing a RAR Fair, now all of a sudden it really doesn't matter if your Nair is frame 3.
 
Kink-Link5

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Very worthwhile point DMG, I feel like not nearly enough Ike's play non-interactively/gay/utilise anything but side B gogogo. I mentioned how sincerely good his D-tilt is, but didn't really discuss much of Ike's walling abilities, which is where he seems to shine even more so than his fear-based side B rush-in.

Kizzu's Ike is probably the furthest along in utilizing the character's entire being, but his playstyle isn't adapted into other Ike players much at all :/
 
The_Guide

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Kink-Link5 said:
Yes, yes I would. Ganon's design is really silly. His platform game and nature of his dash make a bit of difference in their neutral games, and I feel Ganon's design is overall a lot less problematic, but still very, very silly. DK too. Bowser's aight though.

No he's not I'm a terrible liar.

Actually

up B and, jump start up stupid slow, but up B at any point in it


eh

Yeah Bowser's aightish.
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Hmm. I'm really not seeing Ganon > Ike. Dude is way more mobile; Ike has a faster SHFFL, better running jump speed, faster run, a faster wavedash, and QD shenanigans. Ganon has better WD distance, but only slightly irrc. Ike's aerials are slightly slower on the startup, but have way more disjoint. Ike's grab actually has decent range, too.
 
Xebenkeck

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The biggest problem for Ike is the power he has is disproportional to the range he has.

If you look at all the other sword users in Smash, no one has anywhere near the attack power Ike has, except for Marth with tippers.

Now if I were to suggest to you that Marth's sword be changed so that all hits no matter what were tipper hits, everyone would scream broken. But this is the reality with Ike, he has ridiculous power with ridiculous range, no matter where you hit with his sword you will be sent flying, where Marth has to at the very least make an effort to space things properly. And still to this day one of the scariest Marth users was Azen because he was so good at getting tipper hits, which made marth seem really good in some peoples eyes.
 
Xebenkeck

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No doubt, I said one of the bigger problems. Implying there are other problems too.

That is also so sad, G&W Y U SO LAGGGGGGGGGG. You would think someone who is 2D would be hard to hit on a 3D plane :(
 
DMG

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Xebenkeck said:
The biggest problem for Ike is the power he has is disproportional to the range he has.

If you look at all the other sword users in Smash, no one has anywhere near the attack power Ike has, except for Marth with tippers.

Now if I were to suggest to you that Marth's sword be changed so that all hits no matter what were tipper hits, everyone would scream broken. But this is the reality with Ike, he has ridiculous power with ridiculous range, no matter where you hit with his sword you will be sent flying, where Marth has to at the very least make an effort to space things properly. And still to this day one of the scariest Marth users was Azen because he was so good at getting tipper hits, which made marth seem really good in some peoples eyes.
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Actually even I, one of the more vocal critics of say how strong his Fsmash is, don't necessarily agree with that or think that's the primary issue. There's a lot of troubling stuff about Ike that I don't like or that I think in tandem with other attributes is not fun. Him being strong at any point of the sword is lame, but the real issues are how limited a lot of characters feel vs Ike in many given situations. I mentioned it before, but say the tech chase or throw scenarios. Even if it is VERY predictable, it is almost always in your interest to DI and tech away from Ike because eating a really powerful option like Fsmash is just not worth it ever. Even if you have to eat a dash attack, a Side B, or a flying Fair. These are all better options than getting regrabbed or Fsmashed. But then when that's the case, he was given the mobility option out of QD to cover the hard DI away choices. Or on Uthrow where regardless of DI he's practically guaranteed a hit, which is not new to other characters but is a pretty strong tool.


Where to DI vs Ike, where to tech, where to land or recover, are all NIGHTMARES vs him. And not because of how swift he is, but because he tends to have jussssst enough mobility or range to get you. If you DON'T DI in the "optimal" ways, you eat the Fsmash out of Uthrow or the regrab/Bair/tilt/etc out of Dthrow, or he does a quick Fthrow and you were holding towards the stage time to get molested. Oh maybe you DI'd away, better hope Fair can't reach out there either. Like seriously, imagine if vs say Ganondorf he had the tech chase/punish ability somewhere in the ballpark of Ike. You wanna guess how damn scary it would be? Lol


Then you have the additional safety on shield which I don't like that mechanic being so liberally applied to his big sword moves. Anywho, the power on all of the sword part is whatever. It's lame but it's really not high up there on "what the **** Ike" list.

Kink-Link5 said:
There are a lot bigger problems with Ike than that.



Game and Watch spot dodge data:

Invincible 2-12 of 32

:urg:
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It's bad. Bad to the poop

:drflip:
 
Xebenkeck

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@DMG

There is a reason I said sword users in that post and it is because they gain a inherant advantage of haveing most of their attacks Disjointed from their hurtboxes. Which straight up contributes to the helplessness feeling you describe there.

When you character has to try and navigate a giant disjointed hitbox everytime you try to attack it IS a nightmare. Ness' worst match-ups IMO are Marth, Ike, Link. Because he can't navigate around the disjoint.

Like I said then the biggest(ok kink i said it lol) problem comes from the fact that this giant disjoint(range) is uber powerful. To the point where many characters can't navigate around it easily, and when they try they get swatted away like a fly. Then have to try all over again.

And DMG your also right in the fact that it isn't worth teching or whatever towards Ike because of the risk of eating something like a fsmash. But this stems back to the point that the reason that fear is there is because of how powerful the moves are. Marth has similarily powerful moves, but the fear isnt there to tech towards him every now and then because of the fact he has to "work" to get those hits where Ike does not, just touch his sword and you lose.

Other characters like Bowser and Ganon who also have powerful moves, don't have the ridicuous disjoints a sword gives you, which is why they are different.
 
DMG

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Well to be fair, if a character can't deal with that range then it doesn't matter too much exactly how powerful his hits were. If Fair Nair tilts etc walled Ness effectively, making them hit like untipper Marth wouldn't change that.
 
Xebenkeck

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Indeed but its as you said, many characters not just ness have troubles with it. Its the sole reason Marth has one of the best(i think the best?) match-up spread in the game. Many characters can't deal with his range and disjoints very well. Combined with the fact they are really powerful hits makes Ike seem like a polarizing force in the metagame waaaaay more so then marth.

Ike feels like a DDD of brawl. Where his character alone dictates alot of the metagame. Fpx and Falco also fall under this feeling as well. If you can't beat them or fight them you are hopeless.
 
Kink-Link5

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DMG said:
Well to be fair, if a character can't deal with that range then it doesn't matter too much exactly how powerful his hits were. If Fair Nair tilts etc walled Ness effectively, making them hit like untipper Marth wouldn't change that.
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A thousand times this.

Pretty much think of things in terms of "If you changed specifically this aspect, would it really have an effect on the problems with this character's design?"


Non Ike Example (yay!): If we buff Ness's recovery, does it really address the issues he has that caused him to be put in that recovery position in the first place? What's going to prevent him from just being put in that situation again and again, and what is really accomplished by a change? He gets to lose in 5 minutes instead of 3?
 
Xebenkeck

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Kink that is a good example. Of changing things that won't affect the bigger problem.

But I feel Ike's power is a different case becuase changing it would directly affect the risk/reward aspect of Ike and facing Ike.

If Ikes moves are made less powerful. Then the risk of approaching him is less. Even if your character can't maneuvour disjoints very well.

You can say well whats the difference between whacking someone away 5 times oppose to 3 times. The arguement there is that in the time it took to be smacked away 5 times, you may have been able to navigate the disjoint and attack Ike once. Where if it were three you would have never gotten that oppurtunity to do so, as you are dead.

Remember the match-ups aren't 100:0, there around 65:35. Meaning these characters can still get in eventually. Lowering Ike's time to kill, allows the time for these characters to potentially make up for their weakness against disjoints and get in.
 
Kink-Link5

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There's that, and the fact that damage relates directly to shieldstun, which is a much bigger issue with Ike's design.

But Ike's problems are still a combination of some stuff being worse than it could be and others being better for the goal of diversity in the cast.

Can you tell I'm not a fan of diversity for diversity's sake alone? You can probably tell, huh?

I just think Ike would still be Ike and not like, Roy or Marth or Link without projectiles, or anyone else, if he had a less obnoxious design that was more in line with "overall well-rounded," just like every character can be while retaining unique aspects. And part of that means buffs to areas in which Ike really lacks.
 
DrinkingFood

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Anyone have a link to a particularly good match with Kizzu's Ike in it?
I'm curious after hearing about him. Hopefully I'll learn a trick I don't know.
 
V-K

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Is there a way to make falcon punch viable? Maybe let you charge up the move like DK does?
 
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