Project M Social Thread

[leafbarrett]

Well, they kinda just make up themselves,really. I mean, the standard I guess is a mix of your first two combos: jab 1 > jab 2 > ftilt > fsmash (> FP at low %'s), but ftilt has a habit of dropping combos. It's sometimes better to replace it with dtilt. Likewise, you could also replace fsmash with usmash (also combos into FP), which I believe has less startup than fsmash and combos pretty reliably out of dtilt (and sometimes utilt). Another useful combo, especially for approaching, is DA > f/u/dtilt. The opponent's % usually dictates your tilt choice after DA. DA > utilt works over the greatest range of %'s, but it also gives the least possible followups. One clutch combo is ftilt > DT > dtilt > usmash at higher %'s. Ftilt knocks the opponent down a short distance from you, but DT lets you catch up and scoop them off the ground with an OTG (lolz, Marvel). You've really just gotta hit Training Mode and try out some stuff yourself and also don't be afraid to try out new things during friendlies and such.

I have been, I just haven't been sure where to start. It also doesn't help when the computer I'm playing it on bluescreens.
(DA = dash attack, right?)

 

[bubbaking]

A BnB combo that I've found works pretty reliably at low %'s is jab 1 > jab 2 > f/dtilt > fsmash > FP > fair > sideB > TC (dair if they don't tech). Also, don't forget that ASC opens up a whole new world of comboing. Just like in vBrawl, the aura charge has a hitbox that holds the opponent in place, so it really helps, both on the ground and in the air. It also cancels all the lag of whatever you were doing. It's a necessity for a Lucario who wants to open up the char's full combo potential.

Edit: Yes, DA = Dash Attack

Edit 2: Check out this site for all of your acronym and term definition needs.

 

[GP&B]

Lucaryu needs Falcon's Bair to accommodate that ridiculously sexy moonwalk.

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.twitch.tv/JCaesar

We're gonna start in a minute. Vist and Turbo are here. 2.5 preview build.

 

[iLink]

But then he would have trouble descending on the opponent with it. I often use the move to run/DT off a plat and bair the opponent under me. I also use it for edgeguarding along the stage. For example, I shoot a Spirit Bomb (I don't care what you call it) while they're hanging on the ledge, and when they let go to avoid it, I run off and bair them to their deaths. I've done this sooo many times. That would be a lot harder with a higher-reaching hitbox. Besides, I think it's perfect synergy with his fair. His fair kicks upwards so his bair reaches downwards for 'perfect coverage.' It's like Marth. His fair starts above him, he swings down, and it ends below him, but his bair starts below him, he swings up, and it ends above him. Idk, I just think Lucario's bair is perfect as is, even with the hitbox placement.

Plenty of characters can descend onto the opponent without attacks that hit down like that. Even his old bair could be used to edgeguard in the exact situation you bring up (although honestly, I think dair would be better for this situation)

His fair also hits pretty low, as he starts the kick below him and brings it forward.

When I use him, I find a lot of instances where I could have used something like his old bair to continue a combo or would just have been a nice angle to be able to reach. Having it angled down like that just seemed really limiting to what I could do with it.

I also feel like it has deceptively short range because he sort of shifts his body in the opposite direction of the punch and doesn't reach out as far as I think he can, but that is pretty manner compared to the other thing.

 

[bubbaking]

Plenty of characters can descend onto the opponent without attacks that hit down like that. Even his old bair could be used to edgeguard in the exact situation you bring up (although honestly, I think dair would be better for this situation)

Well, I actually should have clarified. A lot of the time, when I Aura Bomb at the ledge and the opponent drops off, my subsequent bair actually bounces them off the wall into the Bomb. It's surprisingly consistent. Idk if the vBrawl bair could pull off something like that.

His fair also hits pretty low, as he starts the kick below him and brings it forward.

When I use him, I find a lot of instances where I could have used something like his old bair to continue a combo or would just have been a nice angle to be able to reach. Having it angled down like that just seemed really limiting to what I could do with it.

I also feel like it has deceptively short range because he sort of shifts his body in the opposite direction of the punch and doesn't reach out as far as I think he can, but that is pretty manner compared to the other thing.

Tbh, if you find yourself in a combo where you'd want to hit behind and above yourself like that, you could always reverse ASC > fair, problem solved. I mean, it doesn't give that combo finisher KB, but it extends the combo and you can probably finish it afterwards.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sure have been an awful lot of opinions in these threads lately...

Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

 

[iLink]

Well, I actually should have clarified. A lot of the time, when I Aura Bomb at the ledge and the opponent drops off, my subsequent bair actually bounces them off the wall into the Bomb. It's surprisingly consistent. Idk if the vBrawl bair could pull off something like that.



Tbh, if you find yourself in a combo where you'd want to hit behind and above yourself like that, you could always reverse ASC > fair, problem solved. I mean, it doesn't give that combo finisher KB, but it extends the combo and you can probably finish it afterwards.

If anything, it should be easier to do what you mentioned.

Also saying to use fair as a finisher is like saying marth should use fair as a finisher.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

You and bubbaking have been in so many different theorycraft battles of DBZ proportions for 100s of pages and it's smashed up the foundation of this thread slowly but surely. Which now leads to theorying of other games, like SDR or Pokemon. Which will close this thread without some new info to reinvigorate.

There is only one good solution PMBR: give us ANY new info before catastrophe strikes us all.

 

[crush]

kinky lowtier for wostr postr of all time???

am glad projecctm attract more noobs to the super smaash communit

 

[bubbaking]

If anything, it should be easier to do what you mentioned.

Also saying to use fair as a finisher is like saying marth should use fair as a finisher.

Actually, I wasn't saying fair should be a finisher (it never should be unless it's being used offstage). I was saying it can lead into a finisher. Sorry, my wording was confusing...

There is only one good solution PMBR: give us ANY new info before catastrophe strikes us all.

Yes, please! We're praying for rain in an information drought. That being said, I love the DBZ reference. I like to think that Lukakarot is a DBZ fighter from time to time. If only there was a way to integrate his Final Smash into his Super Super moveset.

kinky lowtier for wostr postr of all time???

am glad projecctm attract more noobs to the super smaash communit

Good post. I liked it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I happen to enjoy Kink's theorycrafting. Bubba's, not so much.

Oh btw, subscribing. Debating on getting one of the older Wiis instead of a Gamecube so I can have access to Project M at some point.

Keep up the good work, PMBR.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kink-Link5]

My last big post wasn't even about theory, it was about game design direction. But I can see where the theory part could tie into the "character with 100% safe options" or "Human error as a basis of balance" comments. I was speaking more about the meta approach to building character with a deliberate attempt to avoid speaking about too specific instances in PM in particular. Like, whatever issues the PMBR agrees exist with a character being too weak, not built quite how they envisioned, etc. should be fixed by addressing actual issues with the character.

If you want a specific PM example, look at 2.1 Ness. There's a character for whom few would question as on the lower end of the spectrum, but where do most people see problems? "His recovery is too gimpable," for the most part. The problem with this thought process is it ignores the cause of Ness being in the position to be gimped in the first place. If Ness could just avoid the situation entirely, he is still "easily gimped" except not, because he doesn't have to be put in the position to be gimped by using the strengths of his core moveset. If this core has a weakness or hole or fault or whatever you want to call it, and this weakness is retained, no number of buffs to his already strong parts, or to his recovery, will solve the problem he has as a character. I can't say for certain WHERE Ness is deficient, due to a combination of how poorly in the game he is explored on the whole, and the fact that I have no issues four stocking my own playerbase with him, but it's certainly something that, through pattern recognition, should eventually show itself. Something like "Ness basically has three attacking options, and two of them can be covered easily at the same time with X or Y countertactic, leading him to consistently be put in bad situations." Stuff like that. Not necessarily that SPECIFICALLY, but along those lines; when the real weakness is eventually found and dealt with, you have a much stronger character alongside a likewise strong cast.

 

[bubbaking]

I happen to enjoy Kink's theorycrafting. Bubba's, not so much.

See, the difference between us is that I actually try not to theorycraft by playing against whatever good players I can. Kink, weeelllll, let's just say that he doesn't really have anyone around to play with.

#HardTimes

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...?

Okay.

Edit: I'm mostly joshing you, Bubba. You are pretty damn goofy with your outtakes on certain aspects of Smash, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ELI-mination]

You've been hit by
You've been struck by

Bubba are you ok
Are you ok bubba

 

[Kink-Link5]

...?

Okay.

Smooth Criminal

What? I just felt it necessary to articulate the difference.

Some stuff I'll theorize about, like when I look up a move's frame data and contemplate applications, or when I suggest changes for a character- because, I mean what else are suggestions but theories about a character to request to playtest? But that case in particular was much less theory and much more outlook on game design.

 

[leafbarrett]

And I'm just kinda here reading stuff I don't quite comprehend. Even if I knew what all the terminology of the metagame meant, it'd be no good - I have no experience with it, it'd be words on a screen.

...now I'm sad. :c

 

[bubbaking]

If you want a specific PM example, look at 2.1 Ness. There's a character for whom few would question as on the lower end of the spectrum, but where do most people see problems? "His recovery is too gimpable," for the most part. The problem with this thought process is it ignores the cause of Ness being in the position to be gimped in the first place. If Ness could just avoid the situation entirely, he is still "easily gimped" except not, because he doesn't have to be put in the position to be gimped by using the strengths of his core moveset. If this core has a weakness or hole or fault or whatever you want to call it, and this weakness is retained, no number of buffs to his already strong parts, or to his recovery, will solve the problem he has as a character. I can't say for certain WHERE Ness is deficient, due to a combination of how poorly in the game he is explored on the whole, and the fact that I have no issues four stocking my own playerbase with him, but it's certainly something that, through pattern recognition, should eventually show itself. Something like "Ness basically has three attacking options, and two of them can be covered easily at the same time with X or Y countertactic, leading him to consistently be put in bad situations." Stuff like that. Not necessarily that SPECIFICALLY, but along those lines; when the real weakness is eventually found and dealt with, you have a much stronger character alongside a likewise strong cast.

There's a problem here. What if I told you that Ness is actually very balanced onstage, and the reason that his recovery is seen as a major weakness is because he is forced to pass through the recovery phase, just like everyone else? Ness's design, as a character, is not supposed to be overly weak or overly strong onstage, and indeed, it isn't. However, the problem here is that his overly weak recovery lets down his, otherwise fine, on-stage game. If his recovery was buffed to be alright, like Lucas's is, you'd see that he's a much better character. He doesn't have extremely exploitable weaknesses that fault his design, it's just that the few weaknesses that he's supposed to have are magnified by his horrible recovery. Ness is supposed to be put in the 'gimped' position, just like any other balanced character, but most other chars get to recover from it more times than he does.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What? I just felt it necessary to articulate the difference.

Some stuff I'll theorize about, like when I look up a move's frame data or when I suggest changes- because, I mean what else are suggestions but theories about a character to request to playtest? But that case in particular was much less theory and much more outlook on game design.

Fair enough. I mean, I was kinda piggybacking off of a comment someone else made about the discussion(s) at hand. Looking back on previous pages, I can see what you're talking about, and you're right---there is a difference.

xD Sorry for the confusion.

Smooth Criminal

 

[bubbaking]

...?

Okay.

Edit: I'm mostly joshing you, Bubba. You are pretty damn goofy with your outtakes on certain aspects of Smash, though.

Smooth Criminal

You've probably realized by now that I take things way too seriously when I talk to people online. I'm horrible at detecting jokes and sarcasm (and I'm even worse at cracking them, as Eli and Ben could probably attest to you). I know this about myself, so I'd like to warn you all ahead of time. Please excuse my obliviousness.

You've been hit by
You've been struck by

Bubba are you ok
Are you ok bubba

Darn you Eli.......

 

[Soft Serve]

You've been hit by
You've been struck by

Bubba are you ok
Are you ok bubba

Eli wins the thread.

again.

 

[leelue]

I have to agree with... bubbaking..
About ness.

 

[bubbaking]

O.........M..........G...........

Are you serious Leelue? Do you really pick me? Oh man, I'm so happy I could cry.

#BadJokes

You've probably realized by now that I take things way too seriously when I talk to people online. I'm horrible at detecting jokes and sarcasm (and I'm even worse at cracking them, as Eli and Ben could probably attest to you). I know this about myself, so I'd like to warn you all ahead of time. Please excuse my obliviousness.

As you can see, though, I'm generally pretty expressive about how I feel about certain matters and such, so as to avoid confusion over my own posts. I kinda go overboard with the emoticons.....

 

[Kink-Link5]

What did bubbak say about Ness, Leelue?

 

[leelue]

That Ness' recovery really is a potential problem.
I'll extrapolate

Characters balance onstage and offstage games. Simple fact. How good a recovery is will determine part of how good the character is. Bbk was saying that ness has a serviceable onstage game but since his recovery is the whackNess he's got the short end of the stick. Now, if his recovery was normalized, It'd make him better. Of course, if he had no exploitable onstage weaknesses, hed be better. If he had more range, more this more that... you get my drift.

I'm saying that its a knob that can be tweaked, just like any other knob.


Also, bbk, that wasn't a bad joke. That is the appropriate reaction to being addressed by me.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh god, I forgot that Kink ignored me on here... XD

 

[leelue]

You guys had such good times together

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

ness's recovery isn't as bad as it looks, people just need to actually aim with that ridiculous distance and sweetspot size instead of shooting in the general direction of the stage hoping some stupid **** will happen and going a mile over and into the center of the stage. that and use djc + air dodge more.

 

[cannedbread]

pm gd has seen some ****

if this thread gets locked soon i just want to say ily

i miss neko though

and carroll

and dnigdig

 

[bubbaking]

Ness's recovery can be sniped by practically every projectile, you can ruin it entirely by putting your own hurtbox into the PKT, and the negative priority on PKT2 means it can't challenge anyone who's gotten past the fear factor of being killed by it. If you actually go far out to try to sweetspot the ledge, one of two things will probably happen:

1. On small stages, your PKT will leave the blastzone and Ness will fall helplessly to his doom.
2. The opponent will ledgehog the recovery. If Ness was able to space himself just perfectly to land onstage, his onstage recovery is now punished in the most horrible way known to man.

I do agree that Nesses should be recovering with DJ > AD and DJ aerials whenever they can, but if those are always Ness's only viable options to recover, then the opponent will easily cover them since he'll be expecting them every time.

Edit: I think Ness should be trying to recover high whenever he can. If he isn't in helpless, his insta-dair, nair, and fair do a pretty good job of paving the way for his descent. If he has to PKT2 high, well then hopefully he can juke the opponent out or something, Falcon-style.

 

[leafbarrett]

Okay, I have a question. What tips would you give to someone whose reflexes are physically too slow to react, and has to play purely on prediction?

 

[9Kplus1]

Analyze the opposing character's options and surround yourself with hitboxes accordingly. Works pretty well for me and my balls slow reaction time.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Okay, I have a question. What tips would you give to someone whose reflexes are physically too slow to react, and has to play purely on prediction?

Use penguins and space out any possible option your opponent can throw at you. You don't have to be fast to slow the opponent down.

 

[9Kplus1]

Use penguins and space out any possible option your opponent can throw at you. You don't have to be fast to slow the opponent down.

This is why you're my waifu

<3

 

[leelue]

Play sonic
My reflexes are below average (was tested)
And im fairly successful

Focus on what you're good at. I make hard reads.
Maybe it'll work with you

 

[bubbaking]

Advertising this Melee/P:M tourney one more time. If you live on LI, in NYC, in NY, in the tri-state areas, on the EC, in the USA, if you live in ANY of these areas, you should seriously consider coming to our tournament at Stony Brook University.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=329148

 

[leafbarrett]

Play sonic
My reflexes are below average (was tested)
And im fairly successful

Focus on what you're good at. I make hard reads.
Maybe it'll work with you

My reflexes are shot to ****. It can take me up to a full second to properly register that something's happened.

 

[bubbaking]

I would say to play as a heavily zoning char, one who doesn't really have to react quickly to the opponent but instead shifts his positioning to adjust to the opponent's advances (or retreats). I mean, you'd still have an ample amount of fast reaction time involved, you can't really have serious Smash without it, but it would be the closest thing to slower reactions that I could think of. Chars like Link, TL, defensive ROB, campy Pit. Of course, I could be totally BSing right now. I've never considered what I should do if I literally can't react to a lot of common things. Who do you play with? You should play with someone a bit better than you (but not too much) for a long period of time. You start to pick up on things after a while.

#UselessAdvice

 

[SFA Smiley]

My reflexes aren't bad (for years I thought they were slow, but i'm starting to learn im significantly more technical than I thought I was.) but I use Bowser and he seems like he'd be pretty easy to play with slow reflexes. He isn't very technically demanding and he gets huge rewards off reading shields, dodges, commitments etc