Project M Social Thread

[~tgm_Zeej]

Really, in this case, the question should be "Why keep them together?".

They don't add anything to the game when played as a team, they are simply three single characters linked by a horribly thought out, load time dependent move.

 

[MaxThunder]

what would be awezome, though... is if they could put in PT as his own character... running around... throwing pokeballs at people...

 

[shanus]

Remind me again why the Pokemon characters need a DownB move to be viable when Zelda/Shiek don't.

Also remind me again why the Brawl+ system of stand-alone PKs + auto-switch PT was ignored when it was an elegant system that maintained diversity and balance.

It has always seemed to me like the decision to remove PT was strictly based on "tradition" and lacked creativity. Everything else PM has done/shown is awesome, but removing PT when the above questions are still unanswered just seems knee-jerk.

Under ideal circumstances, we wanted PT to be unique where you would be using all 3 pokemon frequently and were entirely separate/unique from wild-types. However, we ran into several issues:

-Load time is a significant limitation in how a switching character can work
-A true clone engine would be required to separate wild types from indies
-Module coding is still largely a mystery, limiting any changes we can make to diversify their movesets


However, none of those solutions are addressable, despite us having some of the best coding talent out there. It would be entirely unprofessional (lets face it, B+ was anything but professional) to put out a game which has a character that is 3 of the current characters, without downBs, and just autorotates them. The fact is, 95% of players in B+ stuck with one indy-pokemon, and would rather have a fully fleshed out character than PT. So we decided that we would further pursue unique downB's than leave in a character which really adds no value and can be barely modified.

Really, we have hundreds of reasons (and an extremely long argumentive thread in the PMBR) as to why we decided to axe PT. It wasn't an easy decision, but it was clearly the best option available.

The fact is that while we make a lot of cutting edge changes, we aren't writing a game from scratch. We have limitations in character development (i.e. olimar / ice climbers / PT) that will more often than not have simpler re-designs than say a lucario, and while you might not think we are being "innovative enough" it's really us just being as practical as we can be. Unless you can create some cutting edge ASM codes, I think its hard for you to critique our decisions.

 

[Stevo]

I think the right decision was made.

looking forward to seeing the other wild pokemon in action.

I'm assuming Mewtwo has almost no chance of being in the game now that Dantarion isn't involved anymore? or is there someone else who can work that sort of magic?

EDIT: I'm not looking for you guys to say "no promises" I know it is all a possibility, but what I mean by the question is more along the lines of if there is anyone that can make that sort of progress? I'm sure you guys are busy with things that actually matter for "the patch"

 

[Strong Badam]

it's not really a patch as the demo was released almost half a year ago. our next version will likely be something much bigger than the patch could ever be.

 

[Jonas]

I was think about Bowser's side B. Could you scrap the hitbox and just make it all grab boxes? It would really boost Bowser if he didn't have to get so close to grab someone. Besides, nobody wants to hit with the hitboxes, you only use the move if you want to grab

 

[Wavebuster]

I was think about Bowser's side B. Could you scrap the hitbox and just make it all grab boxes? It would really boost Bowser if he didn't have to get so close to grab someone. Besides, nobody wants to hit with the hitboxes, you only use the move if you want to grab

Is it that difficult to think of this move as a command grab with hitboxes as icing?

 

[Revven]

That sort of would remove the aspect of spacing it or working to actually get the grab... It'd be like saying nobody wants to hit with Mario's flub Fsmash so might as well make it all the sweetspot.

 

[Jonas]

That sort of would remove the aspect of spacing it or working to actually get the grab... It'd be like saying nobody wants to hit with Mario's flub Fsmash so might as well make it all sweetspot.

That's true, and the same could be said about other characters like Marth (zomg tipper on every hitbox), but Bowser has much more trouble getting close because he's fat and slow (at least in Melee).

But I guess I see your point, and I won't argue about if everyone thinks it's a bad idea

 

[Stevo]

it's not really a patch as the demo was released almost half a year ago. our next version will likely be something much bigger than the patch could ever be.

yea, that's why I had "the patch" in quotation marks.

sorry if this is old news, but was light press shield stuff fixed? that was probably my biggest beef when i played the demo lol

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah.
we don't have light shielding yet, but we do have light presses activating shields properly now.

 

[Stevo]

what about wavedashing out of shield? do you have to let the trigger un-press completely before pressing it again?

I think the issue was that light press and hard press were not seen as two different inputs correct?

 

[cmart]

That's true, and the same could be said about other characters like Marth (zomg tipper on every hitbox), but Bowser has much more trouble getting close because he's fat and slow (at least in Melee)

This particular move also has enough armor to ignore a Marth tipper. Being able to do it while your opponent is stuck in animation attacking you makes it a lot more viable to land. And besides, I've both spaced and combo'd out of the claw hitboxes - it's not like they're actually bad or anything.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I think the right decision was made.

I'm assuming Mewtwo has almost no chance of being in the game now that Dantarion isn't involved anymore? or is there someone else who can work that sort of magic?

Wait, WHAT?

 

[MaxThunder]

^^Yeah i believe he said he was gonna move on from smash hacking a while ago...

 

[Sneak8288]

Honestly speaking... would people really want to see Sheik with another move such as down-b if the transformation was removed? People complain about her enough as it is lol. But yea lol at the pt/zelda sheik comparison

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Then who's going to do the clone engine?

 

[Jonas]

Honestly speaking... would people really want to see Sheik with another move such as down-b if the transformation was removed? People complain about her enough as it is lol. But yea lol at the pt/zelda sheik comparison

Zelda is fine with her current moveset. Down B is all she'll ever need

 

[Spoon~]

Zelda is fine with her current moveset. Down B is all she'll ever need

Din's is all she'll ever need.

 

[Ecks]

Dantarion's done? D:

Maybe he'll come back eventually...

Anyway, about PT, everytime I pick him is either because I want to use Zard or Squirt. Sure PT could do some marvelous stuff with instant change and some other creative stuff but, like Shanus said, not possible. :/

 

[Demon-oni]

I didn't know Dantarion was done with smash hacks...this saddens me. Someone should go find another wizard or something.

 

[Crooked Crow]

We still have Magus, so that's a lot better than nothing.

 

[MaxThunder]

^that's a LOT better than nothing indeed...

 

[Ecks]

Wait, does Dantarion's leave means no Brawl Masquerade?!

*More sad faces*

 

[Stevo]

Magus pretty much means wizard anyway, so I wouldn't worry about things.

the rest of the P M team can handle things. I think it says something about the team the fact that half of you didn't even notice that Dantarion was gone lol

 

[Rikana]

I was looking forward to dantchu.

 

[Alopex]

Unless you can create some cutting edge ASM codes, I think its hard for you to critique our decisions.

Come now, Shanus, you can't rely on that every time someone critiques PM. Those who can code almost certainly are already working on the project, so ALL of your critics will be non-coders.

You can ignore them as much as you want, and the PMBR is very good at doing just that, but at the end of the day they will be your critics and justifying every one of your decisions with the suffix of "you can't do better" is entirely unprofessional.

You've always done good work, but drop that tagline.

The fact is that while we make a lot of cutting edge changes, we aren't writing a game from scratch. We have limitations in character development (i.e. olimar / ice climbers / PT) that will more often than not have simpler re-designs than say a lucario, and while you might not think we are being "innovative enough" it's really us just being as practical as we can be.

I can understand practicality and limitations. You'll notice that my post didn't contain any outlandish "suggestions" or attacks, because I know better than to ask for things I have no real understanding of. I simply asked questions about the decision that I felt were unanswered. Without that kind of feedback, what you consider practical could just seem "uninspired" to the rest of us mere mortals.

As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to PT would be individual DownB moves but auto-switch on death.
If I recall, though, from my time in the B+BR, it is impossible to have auto-switch without having the transformation DownB. You can't change the Down B for all the Pokemon to something else and still have a switching mechanic.
Is this still the case?
Cause I can understand that kind of limitation to game design, but until you've given some sort of indication/confirmation that you've looked into it and can't do anything about it, what's practical can seem like it's just what was easiest.

I mean, few really know what you have and haven't looked into and what avenues have or haven't been suggested by the PM team. So I ask.

The fact is, 95% of players in B+ stuck with one indy-pokemon, and would rather have a fully fleshed out character than PT. So we decided that we would further pursue unique downB's than leave in a character which really adds no value and can be barely modified.

Really, we have hundreds of reasons (and an extremely long argumentive thread in the PMBR) as to why we decided to axe PT. It wasn't an easy decision, but it was clearly the best option available.

95% of the preceding playerbase would just go straight for indy-PK yet the PMBR, which is composed largely of B+ vets, was split down the middle? That, plus the fact that there is no way you could actually measure the character usage, makes me think you're throwing out random numbers as stats. As before, that's an unprofessional way to try and push a point, Shanus.
You've made your case. A solid case doesn't need the support of fake stats, so drop that.

 

[kaizo13]

what ever happened to Dant's extra costume slots code?


Edit: and lol Alopex, don't you think the PMBR knows what is and isn't possible, and apparently you don't fully know the limitations or work-abouts of PT sooo.....just let them work man

 

[JCaesar]

95% of the preceding playerbase would just go straight for indy-PK yet the PMBR, which is composed largely of B+ vets, was split down the middle? That, plus the fact that there is no way you could actually measure the character usage, makes me think you're throwing out random numbers as stats. As before, that's an unprofessional way to try and push a point, Shanus.
You've made your case. A solid case doesn't need the support of fake stats, so drop that.

They aren't made up stats. I ran dozens of Brawl+ tournaments (in fact, I'd be willing to bet I ran the most period) including the largest, the side events at Pound 4 and Apex. I knew a LOT of Brawl+ players, especially on the East Coast, and I knew of exactly 1 person (GuruKid) who ever used PT in tournament. There were dozens of people who used indy pokemon. I used quite a bit of Squirtle myself.

As for the PMBR, just because the vast majority of us prefer playing indy pokemon doesn't mean we didn't want to try to find a way to keep PT. It just didn't work out, for reasons already stated.

 

[Alopex]

Edit: and lol Alopex, don't you think the PMBR knows what is and isn't possible, and apparently you don't fully know the limitations or work-abouts of PT sooo.....just let them work man

lol, read my posts?


@JCaesar
Fair enough.

 

[JOE!]

very curious as to what ivy's down B is after seeing Squirtle's and Zard's...

 

[kaizo13]

lol, read my posts?

i did, but i stopped taking it seriously after

"Unless you can create some cutting edge ASM codes, I think its hard for you to critique our decisions" = "you can't do better" = unprofessional

if you're sooo worried about your beloved PT leave out the unnecessary comments and focus on the issue

 

[Alopex]

i did, but i stopped taking it seriously after

"Unless you can create some cutting edge ASM codes, I think its hard for you to critique our decisions" = "you can't do better" = unprofessional

if you're sooo worried about your beloved PT leave out the unnecessary comments and focus on the issue

"I did but stopped after the first line" = "I read it"

Damn, I've skimmed read a lot of books.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I was looking forward to dantchu.

^This x10char

 

[Cero]

So... I'm just wondering if this is possible.

Remove auto-switch on death.

Keep the new down-B's for the pokemon.

Map baton pass to the left, down and right directions on the digital pad.
(Left = Squirtle, Down = Ivysaur, Right = Charizard)

I think that would be the best solution.

 

[Vaerix]

I think, sadly, that's the same as just mapping any switching to the taunt buttons, and that can't happen.

 

[Revven]

Can't map switch to taunts, Cero.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I was looking forward to dantchu.

I was as well, though I have next to no idea what it was supposed to be.

 

[Cero]

Can't map switch to taunts, Cero.

I miss Dantarion and Phantom Wings.

They made the impossible possible.

Spoiler

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH!

EDIT: Oh, wait. Is it possible to map it to anything else? Say, like pressing A and B at the same time?

 

[NeoZ]

Why are people talking about Baton Pass?
It's not like any of the pokemon had stat boosting moves that would persist after a switch.