Project M Social Thread Gold

[Warsaint777]

And I'm okay with this. Brawl's competitive-level jank was flat-out dumb, imo. Smash 4 is basically redressing damn near all of that.

Smooth Criminal

Smooth tell me about all said 'jank' in detail. I never did competitive Brawl. *Crosses legs and leans back*

I'm not trolling btw i'm forreal

ps: 10grand posts gdamn

 

[wannabe33]

Smash 4 will pretty much be like Brawl, but without the bull****. Which isn't exactly a bad thing.

"Smash 4 is a better Brawl" has become a common narrative, but I don't see it. What, exactly, are the substantive mechanical fixes in Smash 4?

-still few safe on-shield pressure options
-running still inferior to walking
-few meaningful movement options at all, really
-neutral game still highly defensive
-people still live too long (possibly even worse now than in Brawl!)
-air dodges are still super hard to punish (unless you air dodge and hit the ground, which is a great change)
-edgeguarding now more difficult and risky than ever

Smash 4 is indeed Brawl 2.0, but that's because there's more characters and stages than before. Some small things were improved, including no tripping, the introduction of custom moves, and (seemingly) no broken characters, but mechanically it's virtually identical to Brawl. Am I missing something? What are these great changes people are speaking of?

 

[KayB]

I played the Smash 3DS version and out of all my friends interested in the game I think I'm the only one who disliked it. It's not really the game, so much as the 3DS control scheme, I'll probably like the Wii U version tons more. The game looks like it'll be tons of fun to play with fiends though, I can foresee drunken Smash 4 free-for-alls with items being the best thing since Brawl Ganon with items.

I don't like Brawl's physics, but the items and jank present in Brawl are so much better than Melee's.

"Smash 4 is a better Brawl" has become a common narrative, but I don't see it. What, exactly, are the substantive mechanical fixes in Smash 4?

-still few safe on-shield pressure options
-running still inferior to walking
-few meaningful movement options at all, really
-neutral game still highly defensive
-people still live too long (possibly even worse now than in Brawl!)
-air dodges are still super hard to punish (unless you air dodge and hit the ground, which is a great change)
-edgeguarding now more difficult and risky than ever

Smash 4 is indeed Brawl 2.0, but that's because there's more characters and stages than before. Some small things were improved, including no tripping, the introduction of custom moves, and (seemingly) no broken characters, but mechanically it's virtually identical to Brawl. Am I missing something? What are these great changes people are speaking of?

- No immediate SSS tier or FFF tier day 1 (or in other words, no ****ing Meta Knight, and no kirby n' friends tier)
- No infinites (ex. hand-offs, wobbling)
- No tripping
- Little changes (jab finishers)
- Final Destination variations
- Final Destination has less bull**** collisions
- Variation of playstyles (Shulk vs Robin vs DHD)
- Better pivot techniques
- COMBOOOS (obviously a bit over exaggerated, but still a far cry from Brawl)
- Custom moves for experimentation (benefits both competitive and non-competitive)
- jab locks aren't a thing
- air dodge laaag
- no moar chain grabs
and probably more that I can't come up from the top of my head. I'm sure others who are more well-versed in Brawl can spot more positive differences.

Also, it's too early to call the new ledge grabbing system flawed. We've had this mechanic for like 16 years, of course it's going to take some type to adapt. Already there are players who are taking advantage of this technique and turning them into real edgeguards. That's not to say that in the future it might actually be a bundle of ass, but it's too early to say anything now.

 

[Warsaint777]

"Smash 4 is a better Brawl" has become a common narrative, but I don't see it. What, exactly, are the substantive mechanical fixes in Smash 4?

-still few safe on-shield pressure options
-running still inferior to walking
-few meaningful movement options at all, really
-neutral game still highly defensive
-people still live too long (possibly even worse now than in Brawl!)
-air dodges are still super hard to punish (unless you air dodge and hit the ground, which is a great change)
-edgeguarding now more difficult and risky than ever

Smash 4 is indeed Brawl 2.0, but that's because there's more characters and stages than before. Some small things were improved, including no tripping, the introduction of custom moves, and (seemingly) no broken characters, but mechanically it's virtually identical to Brawl. Am I missing something? What are these great changes people are speaking of?

That's why I asked Smooth Criminal he seemed he'd know a lot on the matter.

I've played all the Smash's like, very competitively (but never literally professionally), and Brawl always drove me crazy with how sluggish it felt, and then of course tripping was nonsense. I can't put my finger on all the precise issues it had like the pros can with all their glossarized terminology; I can only generalize that it felt, just, sticky to me; like everyone and every aspect of it was Melee or even 64 except covered thickly in tar. Don't get me started about how bad it felt from HD lag, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Smooth tell me about all said 'jank' in detail. I never did competitive Brawl. *Crosses legs and leans back*

I'm not trolling btw i'm forreal

ps: 10grand posts gdamn

1. Brawl Metaknight (virtually decimated any semblance of balance)

2. Chaingrabs (As much as I got my trollish rocks off with Dedede, the fact that he could chaingrab a third of the cast was flat-out stupid. Towards the end of my competitive Brawl days, I made chaingrabbing this sort of "illustrative" point as to why I disliked the game competitively, among other things.)

3. Tilt-locks (of all stripes)

4. Grab releases

5. Planking and sharking (general abuse of ledge mechanics and aerial mobility like gliding)

6. Brawl's DI + Momentum canceling = wtf why are you alive (though VI/KI/whatever the **** pretty much has that aced)

And much, much more.

"Smash 4 is a better Brawl" has become a common narrative, but I don't see it. What, exactly, are the substantive mechanical fixes in Smash 4?

-still few safe on-shield pressure options
-running still inferior to walking
-few meaningful movement options at all, really
-neutral game still highly defensive
-people still live too long (possibly even worse now than in Brawl!)
-air dodges are still super hard to punish (unless you air dodge and hit the ground, which is a great change)
-edgeguarding now more difficult and risky than ever

Smash 4 is indeed Brawl 2.0, but that's because there's more characters and stages than before. Some small things were improved, including no tripping, the introduction of custom moves, and (seemingly) no broken characters, but mechanically it's virtually identical to Brawl. Am I missing something? What are these great changes people are speaking of?

My biggest gripe with Brawl lay not only in what I listed above, but in the overall pacing of the game. I don't mind a neutral game being highly defensive or being prominent---I enjoy watching SF at high level, as a matter of fact---but if this is being accomplished in a rather slow and clumsy-looking way, like with Brawl's "aerial footsies" and "counterpoking", I'm not too terribly fond of it. At least in SF you're rewarded for scoring a hit on your opponent; it doesn't feel all that rewarding in competitive Brawl, where returning to neutral is pretty much your best bet. Smash 4, on the other hand, is a little faster, and that helps with a lot of that. Despite the hitstun still not being all that drastic, at least at specific percentages and off of certain moves you can still get something resembling a mix-up, even when you account for the wonky VI/KI mechanic. It's definitely more mobile and interactive is what I'm getting at, I suppose.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Soft Serve]

Wait What the hell is the PM Hive mind
because one, that sounds rad as ****, and two, I don't think it exists. PM players are probably the group least likely to agree with things within themselves, after pro/against MK ban people in the brawl days.

Smash 4 will probably be decent, Its going to be slower than brawl and the combos will end up similar, but so far theres less cheese and things to complain about (losing stocks to tripping >.>).

Already the matches are taking longer than day one brawl matches.

 

[wannabe33]

Its going to be slower than brawl

RIP in peace Smash 4
2014-2014

 

[Sol0ke]

Smash 4 is Brawl+ with some refinements here and there

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Smash 4 is Brawl+ with some refinements here and there

This guy here gets it. I've been saying that it would be this since Day 0.

 

[Vashimus]

A lot of people in the Smash 4 boards act as if Sakurai is making the new game out the goodness of his heart and isn't walking away with a fat paycheck at the end of it. As a developer, yes, there's a lot of things he should take notes on. Like Praxis said, Nintendo is a business. If I'm buying a product, I have a right to voice my complaints about it.

Someone being disappointed for legitimate reasons should not have to take away from your enjoyment of the game, nor does it mean you should attack players who express criticism. If you like the game, just play the damn game.

 

[Rᴏb]

Smash 4 is like Brawl, an okay game that has way too many things stopping me from enjoying it. I do enjoy lurking the Smash 4 boards though, they're hilarious.

 

[Yung Mei]

"As their passion for the one-versus-one action game grows, so does their brotherly love."

this one sentence ruined the article for me. it sounds so wrong LOL

whats the matter, afraid youll like it?

 

[DMG]

I actually doubt that Smash 4 will end up slower than Brawl. As someone who played Brawl (with a random Purple banner for that silly game), I'll expand on why I think Smash 4 will probably end up better:

1. Edge camping is severely nerfed. This cuts down on not just really abusive cases of stalling, but it will also remove the general "regrab it a few times to wait for an opening to get onstage" that we come to expect from Melee and Brawl. Because of this, options after grabbing the edge will probably occur much faster than prior. The only thing 100% faster would be Melee style wavelands onstage immediately, with no multiple edge grabs. **** is mad fast yo.


2. With airdodging nerfed with noticeable landing lag, this stops quite a few camping/running concerns. In Brawl, someone like Wario could literally jump over and through people with airdodges and be totally fine, or airdodge around with platforms. You add some decent lag to that option for landing, and you affect a lot of those scenarios AND punish players lower to the ground trying to get away for free. If a person gets hit or punished from that airdodge lag, they might have been able to get away in Brawl and keep neutral reset or mitigate punishment. Less stalling and more punishment = faster matches


3. The stage list (at least for the DS version) is literally forced to be tiny. Most stages are garbage, and even if you include the FD variations as separate stages, none of them so far really present a super stalling issue. We're probably not going to have a couple of years with stages like Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, etc. A lot of those larger or more air based stages can be terrible for stalling concerns. We probably won't have much of that for the 3DS, and I mean actual *real* stalling. Not Villager throwing a bunch of trinkets. No, go watch MK players plank the edge for over a minute or go watch me play on Brinstar. Stuff that runs out the clock, not tedious projectile camping. However, looking at some of the characters it just might be possible (hint Wario hint) to still do it for certain MU's.

4. The top 2 characters in Brawl promote camping, while most of the characters below them are varying degrees of camping to begin with. I probably don't even have to explain MK for most of you, but the way IC's promote camping is on the other player not wanting to die from a grab. When some of the campiest characters in the game feel they need to camp at the ultimate level to avoid losing to you, that's a bad sign for faster games lol. MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Olimar, Wario, Marth, Pika. Not many of those actually want (or should) approach IC's. The same is true for many of those chars vs MK as well.



4ab. Although it's still speculation, some of the more aggressive characters in Smash 4 look to be more than viable. Sheik and Mac look to be doing a fine job so far. Obviously every region has variety, and some of the campier chars seem to be fine too (Duck Hunt Dog for ex). But even if matches devolve into only projectile camping chars, that will end up being easier to deal with than Brawl's style of camping. If the trade off was slightly longer matches, for actual "gameplay" and player interaction, I'd instantly take that deal. Brawl literally has situations and MU's where you're hardly interacting with the other person: your body stays away from them and you can force wins with it.

 

[Warsaint777]

Its going to be slower than brawl

what no it isn't that was one of the most obvious reasons people are optimistic about it-- that it's far faster.

 

[wannabe33]

4ab. Although it's still speculation, some of the more aggressive characters in Smash 4 look to be more than viable. Sheik and Mac look to be doing a fine job so far. Obviously every region has variety, and some of the campier chars seem to be fine too (Duck Hunt Dog for ex). But even if matches devolve into only projectile camping chars, that will end up being easier to deal with than Brawl's style of camping. If the trade off was slightly longer matches, for actual "gameplay" and player interaction, I'd instantly take that deal. Brawl literally has situations and MU's where you're hardly interacting with the other person: your body stays away from them and you can force wins with it.

Great post, and I appreciate the perspective from a BBRer, but I've got a strong hunch campy characters will rule the day here. DHD looks primed for a tourney-viable lock, sure, but so does Pac-Man (with hydrant + key spam). So does ROB. So does Villager. So does Palutena (with custom moves). So does Robin. Hell, from what we've seen, even Greninja relies heavily on his projectile of choice to win against great players. That leaves seemingly only two "up-close" viable characters in ZSS and Sheik. (Little Mac will end up Low Tier, I think everyone acknowledges this in the back of their minds despite the hype he brings.)

Granting these are just early impressions, that's a significant slant in favor of campy characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I would take the kind of camping Smash 4 brings to the table over Brawl's. Like DMG said, Brawl's camping style forced non-interaction. Nothing was completely safe at close range (unless you were Metaknight). That's why those characters were forced to do that.

Smash 4's camping reminds me of the long-ranged zoning in more traditional fighters (so far). Sure, some of the projectile-heavy characters with great normals can get away with playing a keepaway game (DHD and Pac-Man come to mind), but that doesn't mean they can stay away forever. A lot of the engine/mechanics changes work against that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Star ☆]

what no it isn't that was one of the most obvious reasons people are optimistic about it-- that it's far faster.

Attacking and movement might be faster but people sure do live for longer.

 

[SpiderMad]

I sometimes think of what it'd be like or how would I enjoy Smash 4 if I was still a casual and never discovered the competitive scene. I think I'd enjoy it more but my casual friends stopped playing long before I discovered the competitive scene, so I'm not sure.

I wish I had footage of my casual play to see if I knew spacing and how I'd play, I was the best out of all my casual friends so I like to imagine I had something developed as a decent foundation. I always wonder what it'd be like if some competitive player had come over and creamed me in Melee (and later Brawl I guess to a lesser extent), that would shock the crap out of me and have changed my entire life rather than the more gradual and slow slide into the competitive scene I had much later on (like Umbreon sometime mentions though, there's things Smash probably took-over in my life that would be different and possibly better without it; so I don't feel like I wish I knew of competitive smash any sooner than I did). Though I question if that happened once early on in 64 when one of my neighbors came over once and beat my Kirby with Fox once or twice and left. I think I would have noticed more though if he was really good beyond just being able to beat me, but he may have knew of Z cancelling idk.

Oh, I'd also like to see how I would hold/use the controller. I have no clue if I used L or R and all that.

Most people getting into Smash nowadays seem to not have a big casual foundation to have knowledge about everything, items, stages, even things like Mario's cape reflecting Pika's down-b surprises some people when I think casuals know lots of things like that. Especially for someone who never played Smash much until competitively, that must be odd, since to me there's still sometimes that feeling like this game was a hidden gem of potential that for years was only being faintly grasped at when playing casually; yet casually was also just as fun. It's like they missed out on part of the Smash phenomenon experience.

Casually I think I played mostly Kirby in 64, and Kirby/Falco in Melee. And in Brawl I think Marth, and at one point Falco when I was learning about he had a CG, but then I wasn't able to CG my Cousin's Olimar and he beat me; then I went back to Marth or something.

I think myself, and probably other casuals, probably couldn't SH in Melee with most the cast. Maybe I could do sometimes with Falco. Falco with no SH lasers, I don't think I used his shine as an attack, maybe it was all FH Dair and F-smash I wish I knew. With Kirby in Melee all I remember was I found his dash attack cool. We often played on Hyrule temple I think.

 

[Saito]

Wait What the hell is the PM Hive mind
because one, that sounds rad as ****, and two, I don't think it exists.

PM hivemind is literally the "PROJECT M IS LOVE, BRAWL IS **** mindset.

Of course its not for everyone, but for a good amount of project M players, this is true.

 

[GP&B]

Biggest issues:
-Nerfed Brawl Air Dodge is still mechanically Brawl Air Dodge; it's an acronym for BAD because it's gross
-No dash jump momentum carry (it just feels wrong after playing Ike:M or Falcon; or all of Melee/PM in general)
-SCD is still Brawl's lazy setup
-Dash options not strong enough (but super easy dash pivot tilts/smashes is hugely appreciated)

I think Smash 4 would be perfect as a middle ground Smash with these being fixed.

EDIT: Also

Spoiler

These decals are ****ing amazing.

 

[SpiderMad]

SCD is lazy? How's it lazy? I just find it as a choice to where they want to put the landing bar at (to be more realistic would maybe be Brawl's, but the implications of reducing aerial things and low lasers and stuff was maybe also intended)

And most of you in some way are a part of the uninformed unenlightened Smash mass hive body that has yet to concede and conceive some great enjoyable things I have to offer that take time to learn about PM/Melee. Well, maybe not here since I posted a lot for you guys; but the rest of the non-PMsocial thread world.

 

[Player -0]

Why did they take out momentum jumps? Those and gliding are the bomb as a casual player. Also cool tethers.

 

[SunJester]

The game is certainly going to be better than Brawl, but its still going to be quite slow.

I sincerely hope they don't drop the 2-stock 5-minute rule set. Competitive Brawl is not a spectator sport, and its partly due to how insanely long the games take. If the average match in Brawl is less than 6-7 minutes I'd be insanely surprised.

The last thing we need is for Smash 4 to be taking 7 minutes a game because no one can kill each other. Right now the game being played at 3 stocks easily can take up to 8 minutes to finish. Even 2 stock matches with the right characters can easily end in a time out.

I'm open to the idea of 3 stocks if they find reliable kill set ups, but for the time being I really, really hope they stick with the two stock system. The last thing we need is the influx of new players watching an 8 minute cant-kill-fest.

At least at 5 it lessens the blow.


Edit: I also think a lot of people are playing Sm4sh how they want it to be played, not how it will be played as the meta game develops (I'm aware this will take time)

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Or they could try the one stock setup they were trying in brawl because this game is even slower.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How about a 0-stock set-up
So no one can play it
Huehuehuehue

 

[Haden]

Do ya'll like Turbo? I mean, when LEGIT combos are crafted out of creativity, especially those that actually work in competitive play and are viable? Well, I wanted to know what ya'll think about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHT7AJlMiRQ Also, I hope Turbo makes a return into 3.5 :o

 

[Bazkip]

Also, I hope Turbo makes a return into 3.5 :o

Why wouldn't it?

 

[Warchamp7]

I improved my Twitter name

I took way too long to make this joke given recent Smash events

— 𝙒𝘼𝙍★𝘾𝙃𝘼𝙈𝙋𝟳 (@Warchamp7) September 26, 2014

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

So I don't get the humor of the "destiny review" at all. It was just the guy making some joke about how he doesn't care about destiny because smash 4 is out. It was totally mental masturbation. What is destiny? Why does this guy think smash for is any good? Is he a casual, and if not why does he like the game?

What a ****ty article. It wasn't even funny.

 

[Saito]

I improved my Twitter name

I took way too long to make this joke given recent Smash events

— 𝙒𝘼𝙍★𝘾𝙃𝘼𝙈𝙋𝟳 (@Warchamp7) September 26, 2014

10/10

#shotsfired

 

[9bit]

WHY CAN'T SMASH 4 BE MELEE 3.0 THIS IS BULL****

i'm gonna watch apollo 13

 

[Haden]

Why wouldn't it?

You never know until its release. That's how the world works and how the cookie crumbles.... unless it has chocolate chips..... then it melts to.

 

[Empyrean]

I feel like the pace of the game is overall faster than Brawl. But matches are taking too ****ing long in some cases because of dem blastzones and no ledgehogging. While it's a shame that killing takes some time in this game, I could still see myself enjoying the game without it feeling like a slow-mo camp-fest with overly janky and degenerate strats.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Attacking and movement might be faster but people sure do live for longer.

Wait for people to git gud.

 

[lordvaati]

can we at least wait until the damn thing comes to America before trying to drop the sword of Damicles on it? also:

Tough Edge: Decreased range for grabbing stage edges.
Hard Braker: Stop on a dime even when dashing.
Smooth Lander: Start moving again more quickly after landing.



....so when do custom equipment tests start again?

 

[The_Altrox]

I'm still hyped for Smash 4. Y'all can try to shoot it down all you want, but I still can't wait to play it outside the demos. Are there things I'd change? Sure. I wish there was more viable stage variety in the 3DS, but whatevs, I'll be focusing on the console version anyway.

Incidentally, anybody know if killing is any faster in the Wii U version? idk if it would, but you never know w/ the subtle differences.

 

[KayB]

I haven't seen anyone use Shulk yet. Does he suck or something?

 

[The_Altrox]

I haven't seen anyone use Shulk yet. Does he suck or something?

Really too early to tell, but I saw a vid of him recently.

 

[Nazo]

Not sure if you guys have seen footage from the recent 170 man tournament in japan; this is the fastest pace I've seen the game being played so far.

Grand Finals:

A lot faster than the way North Americans play. I'd imagine once everyone is able to play the game with their beloved GameCube controllers the game will develop faster and pick up in pace.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Japan players are nerds. Also they still played Brawl and was their main game before smash 4 drop and we over here in NA pretty much dropped the game entirely.