Project M Social Thread Gold

[SixSaw]

Okay does anyone have any idea what the issue I'm having is?
I'm emulating PM/Melee in dolphin, and I went to frame advance so I could get a heads up on frame data for some serious theorycrafting
But it turns out dolphin won't register controller inputs until I've advanced two additional frames, or sometimes only an extra frame. Never after advancing only the first frame, it's always 1-2 frames late, and usually 2. Mostly it only takes the one extra frame in melee. I don't understand what the issue is, but I'm worried it's adding even more input lag to the already 1-6 frames I'm playing with on netplay, and that's no good.
It doesn't matter how long I wait in between advancing frames, it's not a lack of computing power, I can run the game at 60 fps just fine. I'm using a mayflash adapter, on windows 8, but even if the drivers making it slow, shouldn't they be a certain amount of time slow rather than waiting through frames, which I can advance at whatever pace? I am using 3.02 of course, and the 4.0-648 netplay branch of dolphin.

That's how PM works dude. When you send an input, the game needs a frame to register that input. Then there's a 1 frame physics delay (which applies to everything in PM). On the 3rd advanced frame, your desired action will be carried out if possible. As such, performing "frame perfect" inputs in PM means inputting them 2 frames early
To simplify:

Frame 0: Input sent
Frame 1: Input received
Frame 2: Physics delay
Frame 3. (If possible) Action begins

Edit: I'm wrong.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's how PM works dude. When you send an input, the game needs a frame to register that input. Then there's a 1 frame physics delay (which applies to everything in PM). On the 3rd advanced frame, your desired action will be carried out if possible. As such, performing "frame perfect" inputs in PM means inputting them 2 frames early
To simplify:

Frame 0: Input sent
Frame 1: Input received
Frame 2: Physics delay
Frame 3. (If possible) Action begins

... That's not how PM works at all. Dolphin maybe, but not PM.

 

[SixSaw]

Enlighten us then?

 

[br8k]

Ay people, check out my discovery and tell me if it's old or otherwise insignificant news.

Laggy super long dashdances for everyone.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Enlighten us then?

Well, I don't know about Dolphin since I've never used the program =P

But the native Frame Advance code will let you put your inputs in within 1 frame, not 2 or 3.

 

[SixSaw]

I've seen the so-called "physics delay" cited as the cause of some of PM's quirks, though, such as shorthops being 1 frame more lenient

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've seen the so-called "physics delay" cited as the cause of some of PM's quirks, though, such as shorthops being 1 frame more lenient

Then... that's something separate from frame advance.

 

[Rarik]

I've seen the so-called "physics delay" cited as the cause of some of PM's quirks, though, such as shorthops being 1 frame more lenient

PMBR please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that the physics delay doesn't affect short hop timings at all, and the extra frame has to do with how Brawl detects short hops.

 

[Cubelarooso]

From my understanding, easier shorthop is not due to physics delay, and the physics delay delays physics, not actions.

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's how PM works dude. When you send an input, the game needs a frame to register that input. Then there's a 1 frame physics delay (which applies to everything in PM). On the 3rd advanced frame, your desired action will be carried out if possible. As such, performing "frame perfect" inputs in PM means inputting them 2 frames early
To simplify:

Frame 0: Input sent
Frame 1: Input received
Frame 2: Physics delay
Frame 3. (If possible) Action begins

I wasn't doing actions that involved momentum, the physics delay only affects when changes to momentum happen, I was doing things like shines and shielding which come out frame one. So minus the physics delay it would be:
Frame 0: Input sent
Frame 1: Input received
Frame 2. (If possible) Action begins

I don't understand, why can the game not receive the input in the same frame it is sent, and begin the animation the next frame? Shouldn't the game be able to read an input as it is sent, not have to wait a whole frame in between? I understand how it has to wait that first frame, it's not like it makes any sense that the game could execute an input in the same frame it's told to do that, then you could go from doing something in one frame to something completely different in the same frame, even multiple times.

Also, shorthops being easier has nothing to do with anything else other than shorthops being easier. It was literally nothing more than a specifically coded window in Melee that checked whether or not you were holding the jump button 1 frame earlier.

Ay people, check out my discovery and tell me if it's old or otherwise insignificant news.
Laggy super long dashdances for everyone.

old news, at least for me, doesn't really seem that useful since you have to have your thumb on the cstick and a finger on an attack button, it really limits your reaction time out of a dash

 

[Hylian]

PMBR please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that the physics delay doesn't affect short hop timings at all, and the extra frame has to do with how Brawl detects short hops.

This is correct afaik.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hylian, any chance you can weigh in on this issue I'm having? Maybe you know something nobody else here does

 

[Strong Badam]

the physics delay only applies to physics-based movement (air dodges for examples). hitboxes and stuff occur at the same speed as melee.

 

[standardtoaster]

The physics delay does not cause everything to be off by 1 frame like you describe, Six Saw. The only thing it affects is when something moves. For example, in melee if you hold a direction and airdodge it will move on frame 1. In PM it will stay in place frame 1 and move on frame 2.


edit: even though sb ninja'd me my post is more important because i have a red band

 

[Saito]

I haven't seen @ standardtoaster or @ Strong Badam in the social thread that much lately.

I'm expecting great Project M related things because of this.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

edit: even though sb ninja'd me my post is more important because i have a red band

you both even have ****ing DK as your character thing

and you main sheik

reported

 

[SixSaw]

I don't understand, why can the game not receive the input in the same frame it is sent, and begin the animation the next frame? Shouldn't the game be able to read an input as it is sent, not have to wait a whole frame in between? I understand how it has to wait that first frame, it's not like it makes any sense that the game could execute an input in the same frame it's told to do that, then you could go from doing something in one frame to something completely different in the same frame, even multiple times.

Because the game only reads inputs once per frame.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah but you don't like input it frame 1 and then it happens frame 2. most of the time you input at some point between frames since frames advance in a single instant.

 

[| Kailex |]

Hello social thread, I kind of missed you... Not a lot... Just, a bit... Maybe... Okay nvm go on

 

[standardtoaster]

@ Saito i've just been busy with school stuff recently

 

[Yung Mei]

someone sell me one of those emerald controllers

 

[SixSaw]

yeah but you don't like input it frame 1 and then it happens frame 2. most of the time you input at some point between frames since frames advance in a single instant.

I guess there could be confusion from using "frame" to refer to an actual image appearing on the screen (back to back periods of 1/60th of a second) vs a measure of in-game time (separate instances 1/60th of a second apart).
To clarify: you send an input "during" frame 0 (ie while the previous frame image is being shown on-screen, before inputs have been checked for the next frame), and then on frame 1, assuming the button is still pressed when the check takes place, the game registers the input and reflects this in the new image. So this process takes place over the course of two images but only one actual frame.
Right?

 

[SpiderMad]

Okay does anyone have any idea what the issue I'm having is?

I read something about disabling device manager over in the Netplay thread to reduce supposed controller adapter lag, but that's pry not the problem in your instance.

Do you guys also want to clear up SixSaw mentioning drifting causes you to be airborne longer in a short hop, @ SixSaw how did you derive that in your previous post about it

 

[SixSaw]

Do you guys also want to clear up SixSaw mentioning drifting causes you to be airborne longer in a short hop, @ SixSaw how did you derive that in your previous post about it

I was just doing frame advance on training stage, short hopping with different control stick inputs and counting the number of actionable frames between jump-squat and landing. I only tested with Wario. The difference in air-time between shorthopping while drifting in either direction (backwards and forwards) vs holding the control stick straight up was only a single frame (30 frames vs 29), but I tried it many times and the results were consistent.

 

[SpiderMad]

I made this for a video and I'm savin it by postin it. http://smashboards.com/posts/16502770/

Jump Squat Animation Length (Airborne on the frame after) [SpiderM]


3 frames

()


4 frames

()()


5 frames




6 frames




[8 frames]



*Notes: Zelda is 6 frames in Melee

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

All the Melee characters match their jump squat length in PM right? What about their empty jump landing lag? Did Brawl carry over the same jump squat length of all the Melee characters, and how many of the Brawl introduced characters match their jump squat in PM?

Frames of Empty Landing (Empty Jump Landing Lag)
2: (Pichu)
4: All characters not mentioned
5: DK, Zard, Ganon [Samus when she lands from her Aerial Smash Missile] (Could be not matching PM?)
6: Bowser, DeDeDe

10: Air dodge special fall landing (Wavedash)

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

Someone link me a list of Brawl's jumpstart/empty landing data, I couldn't find one

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

You forgot Falco.... or your Falco image is broken.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

It's simple, Sakurai loves randomness.

He should play Marvel then!(remember, the PLAYERS are the nuts, not the game)

Spoiler

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I made this for a video and I'm savin it by postin it. http://smashboards.com/posts/16502770/

Jump Squat Animation Length (Airborne on the frame after) [SpiderM]


3 frames

()


4 frames

()()


5 frames




6 frames




[8 frames]



*Notes: Zelda is 6 frames in Melee

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/

All the Melee characters match their jump squat length in PM right? What about their empty jump landing lag? Did Brawl carry over the same jump squat length of all the Melee characters, and how many of the Brawl introduced characters match their jump squat in PM?

Frames of Empty Landing (Empty Jump Landing Lag)
2: (Pichu)
4: All characters not mentioned
5: DK, Zard, Ganon [Samus when she lands from her Aerial Smash Missile] (Could be not matching PM?)
6: Bowser, DeDeDe

10: Air dodge special fall landing (Wavedash)

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

Someone link me a list of Brawl's jumpstart/empty landing data, I couldn't find one

There is no accurate list of jump starts and landing data.

Generally most were ~5 frames and ~2 frames soft landing and ~4 frames hard landing. Some were longer, some were shorter. I could probably compile a list, but effort.

 

[SpiderMad]

There is no accurate list of jump starts and landing data.

Generally most were ~5 frames and ~2 frames soft landing and ~4 frames hard landing. Some were longer, some were shorter. I could probably compile a list, but effort.

Seems funny they didn't include that information in the three major stickies I went through.
http://smashboards.com/threads/dual...-breaking-momentum-cancelling-and-sdi.315154/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-lab-standard-terms-list-2-0.302576/
http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...chs-everything-you-need-to-know-added.286663/
I went through all three of these and I'm reminded of how amazing Smash is and want cover a synopsis on so many things in videos or possibly in posts that I later make into videos. Also if they want Bowser to be cool in PM maybe they should have kept that bug with side-b specifically for him that refreshes his DJ near the ground.

I'm also very confused: With how many things PM changes a lot of things I have no clue if they function like Melee, Brawl, or in-between crazy mix. This includes the summary on dual-stick SDI, is it still like Brawl?

Brawl has shield dropping, is it the same exact inputs as Melee?

Shield release in Brawl is really soon, in Melee it's late, in PM it's in the middle. Sometimes they go this route apparently for other things, like for the timing on Meteor cancelling and Ledge Roll Ledge occupancy duration and Ledge grab invincibility.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Those are very old stickies with probably very old information. Besides character jump starts are determined in the character .pac file, so it's a responsibility of the frame data thread owners.

 

[SpiderMad]

Those are very old stickies with probably very old information. Besides character jump starts are determined in the character .pac file, so it's a responsibility of the frame data thread owners.

Going through these Brawl forums, who is K-prime: is that formerly Espy Rose or Pikabunz? In one of the threads it mentions a revolutionary way to Grab Break (Mash) using Control Stick, D-pad, and C-stick: but it's hard to imply how to perform it and how it would work differently in PM/Melee.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

K-prime is Pikabunz

If you find an elephant and paint it bright pink, it's still an elephant.

In much the same way, I would imagine that unless the PM team actively went out of their way to remove it that it would still be there.

Fundamentally the game is still the elephant but now painted bright pink.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ KuroganeHammer Why do you think Brawl didn't grant Diddy the ability to B-turnaround his down-b, as well as other character's attacks having this restriction as well (though I don't remember what other moves have this)?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Good question. I do not know why Sakurai singled out very specific moves like Diddy's Banana Pull or Falco's Reflector.

At the very least it was inconsequential for Brawl. I can't think of many situations where a b-turnaround banana pull would be used.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

All of you sound like.....

Spoiler

at the moment....... with your frame data and such.

 

[9bit]

Yooooo I saw this live it was so hype

He said he kinda wants to go for sub-18:30 in the future!

 

[Strong Badam]

There is no accurate list of jump starts and landing data.

Generally most were ~5 frames and ~2 frames soft landing and ~4 frames hard landing. Some were longer, some were shorter. I could probably compile a list, but effort.

there is no soft vs hard landing in PM. It's all hard-landing.

@MonkUnit has a list of jumpsquat, landing, and landlags of all aerials that's accurate as of 3.02.

 

[Darkshooter]

All of you sound like.....

Spoiler

at the moment....... with your frame data and such.

Or this guy:

And how is Black Butler?

 

[Bambi_]

I'm expecting great Project M related things because of this.

Per SOJ in Chillin's stream yesterday: "Expect more PM stuff on YouTube in April." I don't know if he means just battle vids on his channel or update stuff, though.


So I had a dream last night that Pichu was confirmed for 3.1. I'm not even kidding. Waking up was painful.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

there is no soft vs hard landing in PM. It's all hard-landing.

yeh I know, was just explaining to SpiderMad how bawrl works