Project M Recommended Ruleset

[Avro-Arrow]

Bazkip Yeah, we just switched, thanks to _Chrome and I, because of this thread.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'm being slowly convinced that nebraska 10 (nebraska 9 plus yoshi's brawl) is the best list and that character first is the way to go for counterpicking

what has this thread decided with regards to dsr or not I haven't been paying attention

 

[JesteRace]

There's not a consensus. If you do NE 10, just do regular DSR. If you do NE 9, do DMG's DSR which allows G1 starter to be re-used as a counterpick if you've won on another stage.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

There's not a consensus. If you do NE 10, just do regular DSR. If you do NE 9, do DMG's DSR which allows G1 starter to be re-used as a counterpick if you've won on another stage.

also my question with regards to dsr is does it function as
1. you can't go back to the last stage you won on
2. you can't go back to the last counterpick you won on
3. you can't go back to any counterpick you won on
4. you can't go back to any stage you won on

 

[JesteRace]

also my question with regards to dsr is does it function as
1. you can't go back to the last stage you won on
2. you can't go back to the last counterpick you won on
3. you can't go back to any counterpick you won on
4. you can't go back to any stage you won on

#3

 

[Bazkip]

#3

What no
DSR is you can't choose any stage you've won on

 

[JesteRace]

My B, I was referring to modified DSR.

So either run 10 stages and normal DSR (can't go to any stage you've won on)

Or run 9 stages and modified DSR
(can't go to any counterpick you've won on)

 

[nimigoha]

also my question with regards to dsr is does it function as
1. you can't go back to the last stage you won on
2. you can't go back to the last counterpick you won on
3. you can't go back to any counterpick you won on
4. you can't go back to any stage you won on

MDSR is #1

DMG's DSR is #3

DSR is ##4

BUT the terminology is screwed up between 1 and 4 because it was kinda used interchangeably by Melee players. Best to specify. In my experience DSR is usually "any stage" and MDSR is usually "the last stage".

Nebraska 10 with 2 bans is okay but Yoshi's Brawl is a really hard sell. Loads of scenes have already dropped it after people didn't like it (after including it for a while) so getting them to include it again will be tougher than selling Nebraska 9 imo.

I'm trying to advocate for 1 ban Bo5 and 2 ban Bo3 (with #4 DSR) because the numbers work out well, but selling the different ban count depending on game count is hard. Understandably so, having it change is sorta weird (even though it did in Melee).

9 stage 2 ban #3 DSR doesn't seem too bad because the stage that opens up is one that has already been struck to and should be the most neutral of the stages for that matchup. However when you consider that the characters in game 5 may well not be the same as game 1 it gets tricky. Maybe a Marth and Fox struck to GHZ and the loser of the last game is now going Bowser. So the stage has not been struck to in the same matchup (and in this case, the struck-to starter would have definitely been different for the matchup.

 

[_Chrome]

It's a little disappointing stages like Halberd and Yoshi's weren't fixed to become completely neutral, and that nobody likes Lylat haha. Lylat is actually pretty good, and even better for Meta Knight. Please accommodate the NE 9 stage list so that every stage is good for MK: this means including Skyworld. But for real, NE 9 is a good stage list and so is NE 10.

I hope I'm not straying off topic, but what is/should be the standard for a doubles list?

 

[Kulprit]

The current Doubles stagelist that Nebraska runs is the following:

Starters:
Smashville
Battlefield
Bowser's Castle (Alt.)
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino's Secret

Counterpicks:
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone
Final Destination
Dreamland

The biggest issue that we tackled for the DOubles stagelist is that Wario Land is just too small for Doubles to contain 4 bodies on it without pure chaos, and thus degenerative gameplay. So we replaced it with a large stage, which we chose Delfino's Secret. We made Delfino's a starter instead of GHZ/FoD because those 2 are the 2 smallest stages on the list, so it makes sense for them to be CPs only (just like it is in Singles, the 2 smallest stages are CPs [WL, FoD]). You could argue that FD is the smallest large stage, and thus should be the starter for the large stage, but having the 2 large stages being so similar to each other is detrimental (this would be the case if DL/Delfino were the large CP stages).

Curious to see how the dicussions for Doubles stagelists goes and how we should focus on balancing it.

 

[JesteRace]

I have a hard time giving a crap about doubles as time goes on. Not enough to go in-depth into balance issues anyways. Minnesota runs the same list for singles and dubs and that's fine, I guess. Nebraska makes a slight shift in stage sizes to account for extra bodies. Battlefield is considered small, Wario Land is removed, Pokemon Stadium is considered medium, Delfino's Secret is added as a large. In this context, we still have 3/3/3 in stage sizes. The rest of the attributes may not be perfectly balanced, and idk if this shift in stage size is accurate or warranted, but that's the current mindset in NE. Again, I can't be bothered to care right now.

 

[_Chrome]

I'm a little bit shaky on having FoD as a doubles stage. As a completely different topic (no sarcasm) what does everyone think about Norfair as a potential stage for doubles?

 

[Bazkip]

Wario Land is just too small for Doubles to contain 4 bodies on it without pure chaos, and thus degenerative gameplay.

I don't know if I agree with that. The platforms create a lot more space compared to GHZ, where the platform barely comes into play, and the main stage size of WL is only a couple of units shorter than GHZ. I think that makes for more usable space on WL.

 

[_Chrome]

Says the Ganon player lol. I've always thought small doubles stages were lame, as with YS in Melee. Even GHZ is a little small for my taste, but I think it's acceptable. Aerial space is also covered really easily in stages like WL, and the horizontal space GHZ offers is much needed. Characters like Charizard and Ganon and Sheik would have incredible control on a stage like WL with too many bodies.

 

[JesteRace]

Like it or not, suffocating your opponents with limited space is a legitimate strategy in teams and promotes good synergy in teams as opposed to just throwing out hitboxes or doing 2 1v1's. There are some that view Wario Land and Yoshi's Story as a little too advantageous to that strategy, but the option for small stages still should be there imo.

 

[_Chrome]

You may think it promotes good synergy, but in reality it just provides more chaos. As a MK player, I know all about suffocating my opponents, but 1v1s can still easily be broken on a stage like FD. Kill moves can just be thrown out on YS with little to no regard and it's less strategic.

 

[4tlas]

You may think it promotes good synergy, but in reality it just provides more chaos. As a MK player, I know all about suffocating my opponents, but 1v1s can still easily be broken on a stage like FD. Kill moves can just be thrown out on YS with little to no regard and it's less strategic.

Not everyone plays fast characters that can break up 1v1s on large stages.

That being said, WL and YS are definitely small enough I can just spam lightning kicks as a legitimate strategy. <3

 

[_Chrome]

Isn't that already what Zelda does?

Kappa <3

 

[4tlas]

Isn't that already what Zelda does?

Kappa <3

I did say legitimate strategy =P

 

[Cox Box]

So vods from our latest monthly just went up. Pretty sure I was the only one to play on Bowser's castle all day, but I didn't hear any complaints about the stage, really. Just unfamiliarity. I purposely went with NE 9 and regular DSR to see of it ever became a problem, and it didn't seem to. We also haven't switched to character first yet, but that's coming soon. Unfortunately I didn't make it far enough in bracket to show you guys my moves.

Ninja edit: I forgot I commentated grand finals in my winter hat. We in there!

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAmLug-YyfK9dqtmIo_95B1CVczF4b9iw

And yes, we did have 2 good players troll the stream and gentleman to Hyrule Castle Sheik dittos. Such is life in Alabama.

 

[DMG]

9 stage 2 ban #3 DSR doesn't seem too bad because the stage that opens up is one that has already been struck to and should be the most neutral of the stages for that matchup. However when you consider that the characters in game 5 may well not be the same as game 1 it gets tricky. Maybe a Marth and Fox struck to GHZ and the loser of the last game is now going Bowser. So the stage has not been struck to in the same matchup (and in this case, the struck-to starter would have definitely been different for the matchup.

This is why I allowed my DSR variant the ability to switch ban to Game 1 starter, in case characters were different for Game 5, or in case the set developed different to your expectations. If opponent switched to Bowser for Game 5 in that example, I could change a ban to GHZ. Closes down any sleeper Game 1 super CP scenarios for Game 5.

You must make an informed decision on whether Game 1 is a bigger threat than a prior ban: generally Game 1 is not a bigger threat unless character swaps on both sides or some notable stage/CP character choice comes into play. This is also a risk for the opponent if they are trying to bank on Game 1 starter being available again, since you have the option of changing ban (and this all assumes character first, where you have the knowledge of random Bowser coming in)

 

[smashbro29]

With stages I feel like we know which ones are reasonably legal so why not just rotate so we can use them all?

Like for 3 months the scene follows list A, 3 months list B, etc.

 

[DMG]

TL:DR SUMMARY

If entirely removing, or just shifting smaller stages to CP, don't counter-balance this by adding larger stages. If treating SV/BF as kind of small for teams, add a Medium instead of having both DL/Delfino legal on the same list



Most places would prefer running a consistent ruleset, or making modifications that evolve it towards an improvement and then remaining consistent. Rotating stage lists would go against that and it sounds like a recipe for disaster: rotate out a popular stage and bring in something unpopular and your scene will chop off your head etc


On subject of PM Doubles, the list will possibly skew naturally towards bigger options because stuff like Yoshi Melee and/or Wario Land seem silly in Dubs. I would consider leaving WL on as a CP though, assuming ban breakdown would be:


Small bans: WL, GHZ/FoD

Remaining stage: FoD/GHZ


In the list rbk posted a bit up on this page, the small choices for entire list are GHZ and FoD. Assuming 2 bans, this leaves something like SV or BF left and that's basically total medium territory (SV might be considered small for doubles I guess, depends on char choice more than the prior stages mentioned). For characters that prefer larger stages, they have PS2/FD/DL/Delfino. Regardless of any 2 specific bans, that seems pretty skewed.


Starter list is hard to balance, but I think you have to have some small offering as a starter. Even if it's seen as possibly degenerate, how else are you going to balance the plethora of non-small choices? As that list stands, the smallest 2 stages to strike are BF and SV: not having GHZ/FoD/small stage has skewed striking power pretty substantially.


Alternative starter list: GHZ / SV / BF / ??? / PS2 - DL - Delfino (using only 1 choice between DL and Delfino)

CP: WL / FoD / FD / Delfino - DL - PS2 whatever (again, only 1 total out of DL / Delfino)

??? = One choice from Bowser Alt, Yoshi Brawl, Norfair, or some kind of medium-ish offering

With 2 bans, WL and FoD / GHZ are removed for Small. For Big, 2 bans removes say DL and FD, leaving PS2.


The issue is whether to legalize some of the small choices, to serve as ban/strike fodder. Ideally, I would never promote say WL or Yoshi Melee being legal in PM dubs, however I see their value as remaining to use up strikes to help small stage chars not get totally shafted. I don't know if they should have to settle for BF/SV as their "small" choice. Let them obtain GHZ or FoD for just 1 game in the set, if we're allowing the list to be flush with large choices. Either that, or give ban power / craft list that's strong enough to just force people to play on medium stages. Would sound a bit hypocritical to say GHZ/WL/ something small is unhealthy, and then have both Delfino + Dreamland + other larger offerings as if this wasn't skewing


Least complicated starter list is running 3 stages: BF + 1/1 on each side, but running 3 starters is a headache for a fair striking process.

 

[Scatz]

Really hard to dig up some info in this thread.

What's the consensus between stage/character first when counterpicking? And how many regions are using character first rules?

GA is using Nebraska's list with DMG's DSR. I want to make sure I have consistency before making a change to stage/character counterpicking order.

 

[JesteRace]

The general attitude is that character first is superior. Most people adopting the Nebraska list are doing character first from what I am seeing.

 

[DMG]

Character first is becoming the trend, regardless of any stage changes. I think DFW is looking into it (again lel). Neb 9 + my DSR and Neb 9 + Yoshi seem to both have support as various regions look into it.

 

[4tlas]

SG already runs rotating stagelists. I wouldn't say my head ever gets chopped off, because everyone knows the popular stage will come back at some point. And not everyone agrees on what's unpopular.

 

[DMG]

I'd rotate things to get an opinion on what to use consistently. Can't imagine a lot of scenes that are divided or interested enough to run a continual rotation past some time frame of maybe a couple months

 

[JesteRace]

Nebraska actually did in fact do a rotation to try all the stages in the bottom 2 rows, Lylat, and of course Bowser's Castle before we arrived at what we have now.

 

[DMG]

That doesn't sound like it was very prolonged though. Like 3 month swaps at a time

 

[JesteRace]

Yeah, I was both agreeing with your method and making a point that Nebraska has in fact done this method, testing all the viable stages. Just in case anyone thought we pulled this list out of our bums.

 

[4tlas]

I'd rotate things to get an opinion on what to use consistently. Can't imagine a lot of scenes that are divided or interested enough to run a continual rotation past some time frame of maybe a couple months

Entirely possible. We've always run a rotating stagelist. Each season is about 3 months, and we're on Season 9 right now. I think the only stage that was universally hated was Skyloft (sorry, I forgot we ran PS1 before I was around. That was also terrible). The next closest would be Metal Cavern. Those are the only stages where there was enough negative consensus that I would never consider running them again, and even Metal Cavern is on the fence imo.

 

[DMG]

In good and bad ways, you have like the weirdest scene I have ever heard of or witnessed. I will have someone give you a plague or trophy figure in recognition. Any scene open to new or different stuff is <3 tho

 

[4tlas]

In good and bad ways, you have like the weirdest scene I have ever heard of or witnessed. I will have someone give you a plague or trophy figure in recognition. Any scene open to new or different stuff is <3 tho

Yeah, they're open to letting me experiement with rules and stages, but then they're also open to ushering in the apocalypse of directly porting over Melee's ruleset and stagelist...

And as always, the difficult ones are the loudest. =P

 

[JesteRace]

Man, I just loooooove 2/3 of my stage choices being tri-plats, don't you?

 

[DMG]

There's variety in the tri-plat though

I could care less what the majority of stage are, if it delivers on char balance and non-toxic gameplay for the cast

 

[4tlas]

Man, I just loooooove 2/3 of my stage choices being tri-plats, don't you?

Hey man. Triplats are really cool, and just because they have 3 platforms in a triangle doesn't mean they play at all alike.

But yeah its an awful idea. /cry

 

[DMG]

There are plenty of tri-plat stages I would mod to be better, but that's a can of worms probably best left untouched unless PM gets umbrella development again.

 

[nimigoha]

Georgia's using Neb 9, 2 ban, DMG DSR for their circuit, which is supposed to be 6-8 events.

Char/stage first not specified.

I like it.

 

[JesteRace]

Unofficially official announcement (as in, the TO messaged me about it), but Shots Fired 2 will be using the Nebraska list. Ban/CP rules not decided yet.

Let's GOOOOOOOO.