Project M Recommended Ruleset

[nimigoha]

Unofficially official announcement (as in, the TO messaged me about it), but Shots Fired 2 will be using the Nebraska list. Ban/CP rules not decided yet.

Let's GOOOOOOOO.

Stage/char first?

 

[JesteRace]

Not decided yet. Character first has been strongly recommended but I don't have an answer atm.

 

[DMG]

Should we make a new thread / forcefully update OP with Nebraska info?

 

[JesteRace]

Either is fine with me.

 

[nimigoha]

Ripple said on /r/ssbpm that a bunch of TOs were making a switch so maybe let's chill until that happens before grabbing pitchforks against Umbreon (and eventually Warchamp?)

 

[DMG]

*Lowers Pitchfork, puts bucket of Water on Burning Torch*

 

[Deleted member]

you guys are welcome to use whatever rule set you want. we simply put out a recommended one because "people in the know" establish a tournament standard so everyone has a general idea what the rules are when they travel out of state. i contend that my rule set is ideal for 3.6, but dissenting opinion is fine and healthy.

 

[nimigoha]

It's too early to tell but if loads of tournaments switch over to N9 then I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to encourage Warchamp to switch his ruleset page.

Like no offence but the recommended ruleset doesn't really seem to make an attempt at balancing attributes. It's a fair enough list to push back in August when people expected it to change but people have moved away from Distant Planet really hard, and now that the game is complete there's way more talk of a universal standard.

It's of course your thread and your recommendation but if loads of tournaments all switch to the same ruleset as a collective, I honestly think this thread will kinda die. A possible majority move (or at least majority of popular tournaments) will have a much greater influence than this OP saying "use default 3.6 middle stages".

I'm just speculating though.

 

[DMG]

People in the know are starting to do or look into Neb 9/10 with increasing frequency. Sethlon's running it at BR 20 later this month

I'd make a recommended stage list along the lines of the BBR kind. They split stages into Universal Starter, common/expanded Starter, Universal CP, expanded/borderline CP, Universally Banned

Mini example (not 100% representative, just gives an idea)

Spoiler

Universal S -

BF
SV
PS2

Common/Expanded S -

GHZ
Bowser Alt
Delfino
Yoshi Brawl

Universal CP -

WL
FoD
FD

Borderline CP/Banned -

DL (pick 1 between Delfino and DL)
DP (pick 1 between PS2 and DP)
Castle Siege
Lylat
Norfair

Should let people craft something adequate with personal tweaks and give TO's insight on what's actually often used. Stage usage stats compiled across regions would also be very helpful (usage + legal list comparisons).

 

[4tlas]

you guys are welcome to use whatever rule set you want. we simply put out a recommended one because "people in the know" establish a tournament standard so everyone has a general idea what the rules are when they travel out of state. i contend that my rule set is ideal for 3.6, but dissenting opinion is fine and healthy.

There is a general consensus favoring that dissenting opinion. If this thread's proposed ruleset is "your" ruleset (and pretty much yours alone, since there is a very large consensus) then it should be titled as such, and not be misleading.

 

[DrinkingFood]

**** yoshi's brawl

nebraska 9 for life

slopes in the middle? Smash doesn't even handle slopes well all the low crouches, high grabs, and 2/3rds knockback property of said crouches.
Super randies? Recoveries aren't good enough in PM already?
Obnoxious angled platform that keeps changing? Shifted one way ****s with character's SHs, and shifted the other way makes good wavelands more excessively finicky then they already are.
Projectile blocking nuisances? ...Actually I go here so rarely I'm not sure if these were taken out... or if that was YS.

plz no, this stage is a test of patience to play on without even factoring in your opponent



Also character first doesn't stop the winner from shifting counterpick in their favor, nor does it prevent the loser from having advantage. What it really does it stop the extremes. If the winner has a secondary, they don't have the possibility of simultaneously counterpicking that secondary against both the losers character AND against their stage choice, since the loser gets stage pick AFTER the character is decided. If the loser has a secondary, the winner still gets to ban stages based on that secondary so the loser can't pull out a surprise secondary to counter the winner's character AND get a free optimal stage against bans meant for the loser's main.

You go from these possibilities (generalized)
-2, winner's favor to an extreme
-1, winner's favor
0, no favor
1, loser's favor
2, loser's favor to an extreme

to these
-1
0
1

Keep in mind, winner only gets advantage when they have a character counterpick, and the loser doesn't. And that makes sense, no matter how you roll it- having multiple characters playing at your opponent's level (or higher, since the winner already beat them) earns you an advantage regardless of set-up. This was my argument before in favor of stage first, but clearly I missed something because my conclusion is different now. In PM you have such a huge possible selection of stages and characters that naturally you're more likely to hit extreme polarizations of matchup/stage combinations. In melee, the -2 through +2 advantage spread of a dual main against a single main while counterpicking is still possible, but those respective numbers would likely represent less extreme advantages unless one player is using a particularly bad character. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm defending stage first in Melee, I really just mean that stage first is less acceptable/tolerable in PM than it is in Melee.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah, basically the winner getting advantage is by virtue of practicing characters who cover his matchups and his opponent distinctly not. Not because he's exploiting the system.

@Umbreon can you clarify the ruleset? Is this your personal recommendation or one from part of (or the whole of) the PMDT at the time?

I assumed the latter but your post seems to say the former.

 

[4tlas]

It was never a PMDT ruleset, other than by virtue of Umbreon becoming PMDT partway through its development here on Smashboards. Afaik, at least.

 

[Narpas_sword]

It was never a PMDT ruleset, other than by virtue of Umbreon becoming PMDT partway through its development here on Smashboards. Afaik, at least.

This is correct. PMDT never had a ruleset. That was left to TO's

 

[zman804]

So, I asked about and tried to push for Character First for FinalBOSS but we agreed that it's a bit to late change things right now. FB is using a 9 stage list with 2 bans Bo3 and 1 ban bo5 so we'll get to see how that works at a major. (The stage list was decided a ways back, but is the Neb 9 with DL over Bowsers)

 

[DrinkingFood]

So, I asked about and tried to push for Character First for FinalBOSS but we agreed that it's a bit to late change things right now. FB is using a 9 stage list with 2 bans Bo3 and 1 ban bo5 so we'll get to see how that works at a major. (The stage list was decided a ways back, but is the Neb 9 with DL over Bowsers)

Keep us updated on if you manage to push it at another major. I'd like to see how the format fares on a big stage.

 

[nimigoha]

So, I asked about and tried to push for Character First for FinalBOSS but we agreed that it's a bit to late change things right now. FB is using a 9 stage list with 2 bans Bo3 and 1 ban bo5 so we'll get to see how that works at a major. (The stage list was decided a ways back, but is the Neb 9 with DL over Bowsers)

It's actually more like Neb 9 without Bowser, DL moved from CP to Starter, and Delfino added as CP.

Also I see that Junebug is going. Great time for him to cheese someone else on the big stage by switching to Ganon on their CP. Too bad you weren't able to change it to Char First but it's in a week so pretty understandable lol.

 

[DMG]

I mean some people totally ask for it. He's gotta have the biggest smile, internally, when someone takes him to Wario. No remorse from me to those people

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah haha, he's notorious enough that it shouldn't be a surprise if you pick a small stage and he switches. That's your fault in that specific situation.

My fight is for average Joe pulling out Ganon on WL when average Jim didn't know Joe had a Ganon.

Junebug is just a scapegoat.

 

[Bazkip]

tbh I wonder if people do it on purpose.
Yeah it's Ganon on Wario Land, but it's not his Diddy.

 

[DMG]

Some people have put their tournament life on the line to test that theory

Not sure any of them came out alive

 

[zman804]

I really hope someone gets cheesed out hard on stream by stage first. I feel like that would be the best thing to happen for character first.

 

[CORY]

I really hope someone gets cheesed out hard on stream by stage first. I feel like that would be the best thing to happen for character first.

everytime june eats a small stage cp with his ganon everyone should understand that stage first is dumb and smells bad, but instead half the people seem to get the hardest boners...

 

[_Chrome]

CORY character first is intelligent, smells beautiful and gives me the hardest boners.



Hyperbole, but everyone gets the point.

 

[Kulprit]

Keep us updated on if you manage to push it at another major. I'd like to see how the format fares on a big stage.

Shots Fired 2 will be running the Nebraska 9. Can't wait for it to get a ton of exposure at that major.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Shots Fired 2 will be running the Nebraska 9. Can't wait for it to get a ton of exposure at that major.

Does Nebraska 9 feature character first CPing? Because that's the main thing I meant

 

[JesteRace]

It does in Nebraska. According to Ripple, a good chunk of TO's will be adopting NE 9 with character first. As for majors, again idk, that was neither confirmed nor denied for SF2

 

[DMG]

Most majors will probably follow suit once their local region runs a couple char first events. Char first is the one change I think would be most universal, more than Neb 9 or any particular stage list

 

[JesteRace]

I really wish Yoshi's Island wasn't so controversial. Cause I think I like 10 stages, 2 bans + regular DSR quite a bit more than 9 stages, 2 bans + modified DSR

 

[mimgrim]

Is it possible someone could link me to/list of the events that have used and will use the NE 9/10 stagelist. My community FB pages is going through stage changes right now, finally, and I brought up this list and was asked to link to places that used it and I wasn't able to find much in my searchings, unfortunately.

 

[JesteRace]

I can't link anything on mobile, but Georgia announced their circuit a couple days ago and included the NE 9 in the post as the stagelist they'll be using. Outside of that, it's more of a "soon to come" thing so there's not a whole lot to show you atm. Twitch.tv/camtendo is where NE's last PM tourney was streamed so you can see the list in action there. Perhaps Minnesota can provide a link to one of their events that used the list as well?

 

[DMG]

BR 20 later this month is using Neb 10 with stages first

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, basically the winner getting advantage is by virtue of practicing characters who cover his matchups and his opponent distinctly not. Not because he's exploiting the system.

@Umbreon can you clarify the ruleset? Is this your personal recommendation or one from part of (or the whole of) the PMDT at the time?

I assumed the latter but your post seems to say the former.

it was mostly a mix of what we were seeing at majors at the time in an attempt to create a standard. it looks like people want to take the ruleset elsewhere, and once it settles on something a bit more concrete i dont mind changing it. its not like i like distant planet, i'm a tournament play too and i ****ing hate that stage lol

 

[JesteRace]

*bans PS2*
*gets taken to DP*
"Wtf? Didn't I ban this?"
*cries*

 

[Narpas_sword]

*bans PS2*
*gets taken to DP*
"Wtf? Didn't I ban this?"
*cries*

Plenty of other similar pairs of stages.

Ps2 and dp have different platforms, ones walled and different ceilings. Pretty sure the stage widths are different too.

 

[Bazkip]

Plenty of other similar pairs of stages.

Ps2 and dp have different platforms, ones walled and different ceilings. Pretty sure the stage widths are different too.

Nothing is really as similar as those two.

There's a few differences, sure, but they're pretty minor.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DP and PS2 are only about as similar as YS and BF tho.

Not that I like or care about DP. But it has different base width, different blastzones, walls, and extra platforms.
YS, compared to BF, has different base width, different blastzones, walls, and an "extra platform".

 

[Narpas_sword]

BF compared to Sv has differnet platforms and not much else.
GHZ compared to FOD has different platforms and not much else.

BF compared to FOD has Different blastzones, different stage size, different platforms. ie virtuallty the same differences as PS2 to DP

 

[Bazkip]

DP and PS2 are only about as similar as YS and BF tho.

Not that I like or care about DP. But it has different base width, different blastzones, walls, and extra platforms.
YS, compared to BF, has different base width, different blastzones, walls, and an "extra platform".

Saying "These things are different in both examples" doesn't mean the amount of difference is at all similar...

|Width|Side Blastzone|Edge to Side Blastzone|Top Blastzone
Pokemon Stadium 2|187.5|235|141.25|180
Distant Planet|185|235|142.5|205
Difference|2.5|0|1.25|25

|Width|Side Blastzone|Edge to Side Blastzone|Top Blastzone
Battlefield|136.7|224|155.65|200
Yoshi's Story|112|174.65|118.65|168
Difference|24.7|49.35|37|32

Data from Joe's Spreadsheet
For whatever reason the data in the three spreadsheets linked in Joe's PM Info Thread all slightly vary but comparisons should still produce similar results.

On the objective aspects, it's quite clear the PS2/DP are far more similar than BF/YS.
The width difference of PS2/DP is minor enough to be considered pretty much irrelevant.

The effect of the other aspects are a bit harder to quantify, however...
Narpas_sword to claim that the impact of the platform differences between PS2 and DP is anywhere near any of the examples you just listed is frankly absurd. I seriously don't think I need any data to prove that, I can't imagine anyone would agree with you.

 

[JesteRace]

The only significant difference between DP and PS2 is the ceiling height and the fact that DP is walled. The side blastzones are identical, the stage widths are negligible in difference, and the platform layouts are almost identical as well (How much do the leaves in DP actually matter?)

They are functionally the same in almost any matchup I can think of. The only reason to pick one and not the other is if the ceiling height strongly affects your matchup.