Project M Recommended Ruleset

[Strong Badam]

I do not feel strongly either way and would certainly like to experiment with character first as a competitor, but I'm not really sure why Junebug's Ganondorf is a particularly strong argument, ESPECIALLY in the context of Grand Finals from FinalBOSS. There are very few matchups where Junebug's Ganon on Wario Land is better than Junebug's Diddy on Wario Land; he does it because he likes Ganondorf and Wario Land is his best stage. If it were character first we would just stop seeing his Ganon almost entirely outside of throwaway sandbag games. In GFs, I would definitely argue that Wario Land is a rather poor stage for DK vs Diddy to begin with, because the banana controls soo much of the stage and DKs large hurtbox makes him very susceptible to being suffocated by pressure.

 

[nimigoha]

Do you not think that Junebug would use Ganon on his CP? Like lose game 1, opponent sticks to same character, June picks Ganon, then opponent bans 2 small stages and June picks a remaining small stage (e.g. Ban WL and FoD and pick GHZ).

Or would he just stick to solo Diddy? Really more a question of his mindset.

 

[Strong Badam]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but I believe my previous post answers that question already?

 

[nimigoha]

I mean I've seen June play Ganon on small stages that aren't WL so I'd think that under a character first ruleset with a proper stagelist he'd still be able to play Ganon on small stages that aren't WL on his counterpick.

I think the difference is that right now he plays Ganon on other people's counterpicks and almost never on his own.

 

[zman804]

This threads been quieter than usual. This is what AZ came p with after a LOT of squabbling, I'm not a huge fan of no bans Bo5 but we'll see how it plays out these next few weeks.

 

[DMG]

I'm curious what the logic for 0 ban Bo5 was. With 1 ban each, you're left with 6 stages for 5 games to be played. That seems like an appropriate level of variety to offer. Having 0 bans sounds like matches will end up more polarized, as people "generate" a free win on a stage like FD/Wario. What's the point of extending the set count, to display a higher or more consistent level of skill, if you're more often handing out freebie strong CP's? If two people trade wins on Wario and FD for example, they effectively go 1-1 and shave off 2 extra games from the set (aka Wow this 3/5 set is almost the same as a 2/3 set, so good). If a player or character can't manage the CP trade however, it's tipping the scale to whoever finds more cheese or CP imbalances. Without bans, I'm not sure I'd support character first, since you're basically asking the person to eat literal Sh**.


Edit: Think I mistakenly thought yellows were starter, forgot color coding blah blah. Was about to say wtf are they doing with 3 starters.

That list looks OK, seems odd though to run 0 bans

 

[zman804]

Starters are green, and we are still using stage first. I pushed for character first 1 ban universal so I can't really argue with you.

 

[DMG]

Ya edited it, forgot color coding. Seems much more reasonable with those 5 starters than if the 3 yellow were starters, almost threw up a bit. Thank god for double checks

 

[nimigoha]

No offence to you Zman because I love you and I'm sure the stagelist was created by more than just you (as you said).

• Warioland as a starter is weird. It's like the definitions of a CP, but then again so is Dreamland and that's a starter on your list too.
• Still not balanced with stage attributes. Leaving out Bowser's Castle messes up the 3/3/3 that the Nebraska holds in every category.
• At the very least would you put PS2 on the right side of Dreamland to accurately show the width of the stage? It's like way bigger.
• 0 ban Bo5 is very strange, like you said you're not a fan. I guess we'll see what happens with it.

 

[DMG]

I don't think PS2 or Dreamland placement matters. If placing stages by overall blastzones, it seems accurate. The main point on stage select would be to highlight and place all the starters in 1 group anyways, order matters less.

Wario as a starter instead of GHZ seems odd, but realistically they would often be banned out in similar cases. The odds of people with 2 strikes each leaving Wario instead of GHZ, or GHZ instead of Wario, seems super low on the margins.

 

[JesteRace]

The problem is still the fact that 1/2/2 in stage size in the neutrals is no bueno. It's also 2/2/1 for ceiling height. It IS better than a lot of lists overall, the only real problem being the skew towards small blastzones, so kudos there. Wario Land and Dreamland as neutrals in general also aren't great imo due to being the extreme in all size categories.

I don't know how your group came about the decision of 1 ban in a 2/3 and 0 bans in a 3/5 with 8 stages. That is baffling.

 

[DMG]

1 ban seems fine. It's a bit on the stretched end, but it's not wholly ineffective. Past 8 though, it gets near impossible to defend 1 ban. The 0 ban sticks out pretty noticeably, both on its own and for deviating from the 2/3 rules.

 

[JesteRace]

I just wanna do NE 10 with 2 bans. That's firmly where I'm at now.

 

[nimigoha]

But Yoshi's is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo0oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


bad. I mean, outside of having literally perfect typical stage attributes to keep the list balanced. Shy Guys, tilted stage, tilted ledges, and them ghosts.

I mean, I personally don't mind it. I just think it's a tough sell. Probably easier to push NE9 with 1 ban, or whatever DSR/ban combination we landed on last (was it 2 ban but last one opens up for Bo5? I forget)

 

[DMG]

2 ban, Game 1 stage opens up for banning and picking for Game 5

 

[JesteRace]

Yeah, Yoshi's Island is a hard sell, but apparently Bowser's Castle is harder. I'm legitimately starting to worry if it's possible to get close to a national standard with all the hate I'm seeing for this stage. I really hope SF2 and BR20 shift some opinions.

 

[nimigoha]

"All the hate"

"Yata"

I'm trying. I'm not getting through. He thinks that the balance is the same if we take out Bowser's and put in Delfino's so IDK where to go from here with him.

If that were true I'd jump on it in a heartbeat though.

 

[JesteRace]

"All the hate"

"Yata"

I'm trying. I'm not getting through. He thinks that the balance is the same if we take out Bowser's and put in Delfino's so IDK where to go from here with him.

If that were true I'd jump on it in a heartbeat though.

It's definitely not just him. He's just the loudest atm. Believe me, I've gone over the data over and over and over and over again, and I have yet to match the balance of NE9 without Bowser's Castle.

 

[DMG]

Bowsers has some legit complaints I'd accept. I don't see some of the sloping as entirely negative (tradeoffs for different projectile bounces for example), but some things like tether grabs being affected seems non-ideal for a starter. I can't entirely defend the stage with some of the bugs and quirks that appear to occur, especially with starter status on the line.

While I still see those flaws as relatively minor, I'd love for PM to go under umbrella development again and mod some of the stages for the better. There are a ton of improvements that could be made to many stages imo (and without removing the flavor of original / intended stage). A man can dream

 

[JesteRace]

Remember Sandfall's PS1 from 3.02? I actually really liked that on the grounds of "competitive improvement with original flavor intact"

But oh man. If we could get some medium stages fixed, all our problems would melt away

 

[nimigoha]

Kneato's balanced list is the best stagelist there is. Would be perfect if Bowser's was altered to quell the problems with it (chains, tethers, and maybe emblem and maaaaaaybe lowering side plats so Ganon and Wario can full hop to them).

Like if everyone accepts the use of modified stages I'd love for people to use it.

I just don't want modded stages to be tournament standard. Too complex for the average player.


TBH I'm more upset that development ended early for the sake of the stagelist rather than character balance.

Pit being meh and Bowser being very meh are things that affect a handful of people.

The stagelist not being well balanced when it had the potential to be affects EVERYONE.

 

[4tlas]

In the sense that a ruleset is only meant to find some method of measuring skill using the normal game, any stagelist we make is altering the meta. The "natural" meta is the characters themselves, and thus game balance with characters is far more important than altering the stages to create a "perfect" set of stages. Remember, it may still take us years to find out exactly how the stages fit into the meta, and it may be possible to then adjust the stagelist to help balance the meta. Who's to say that PMDT making stages have "even" attributes would be balanced?

 

[nimigoha]

Hence why every game should just be played on modified Battlefield with walls.

 

[JesteRace]

Here's what my ideal stagelist would be if we could change some ****.

STARTERS

Fountain of Dreams
A small, cramped stage balanced out by its high ceiling. Stage width decreased to 120. Ceiling height increased to 210. Blastzone width decreased to 380. Semi-walled.

Battlefield
A medium, cramped stage. Stage width increased to 140. Blastzone width decreased to 420. Ceiling remains 200. No walls.

Yoshi's Island
I truly feel that without slopes/shyguys/etc, this could be the most neutral stage in the game. Medium all around? Check? Platform interference at varying heights? Check? Open space above the platform? Check. Stage width increased to 145. Blastzone width decreased to 430. Ceiling remains 195. Make it semi-walled.

Smashville
A medium, open stage. The balance to Battlefield. Stage width increased to 150. Ceiling height lowered to 190. Blastzone width remains 440. No walls.

Pokemon Stadium 2
A large, open stage balanced out by its low ceiling. Stage width decreased to 170. Blastzone width increased to 480. Ceiling remains 180. Make it semi-walled.

COUNTERPICKS

Wario Land
The extreme of small and cramped af. Stage width increased to 110. Blastzone width increased to 360. Ceiling height increased to 205. No walls.

Green Hill Zone
Small, but flat and open. This makes it less extreme than WL in a lot of cases, but polarizing in a lot of others. Ceiling height reduced to 175. Blastzone width remains 380. Stage width remains 120. Walled.

Delfino's Secret
Large, but with constant platform interference(I would have all layouts a little closer to the ground and never get rid of the the 3rd platform). This makes it less extreme than FD in a lot of cases, but polarizing in a lot of others. Ceiling height increased to 215. Blastzone width increased to 480. Stage width increased to 170. Walled.

Final Destination
The extreme of large and open af. Stage width increased to 180. Blastzone width increased to 500. Ceiling height reduced to 185. No walls.

I took way too much time doing this, but screw it, it's fun to consider what if. This is my ideal for both balance of attributes/layouts AND symmetry while also minimizing changes to what we're all used to. Wario Land and FD properly balance each other out in all categories now with Wario Land having a high ceiling. Same with GHZ and Delfino. A fixed Bowser's Castle with the same dimensions as Yoshi's Island could be the 10th stage(keep the walls too) but it's not necessary and the platform layout might still need work.

 

[mimgrim]

I just wanna do NE 10 with 2 bans. That's firmly where I'm at now.

Pssssst.

Castle Siege for 10th stage.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dreamland is **** and every stagelist with it legal is ****.

*confetti*

 

[Darth Shard]

Dreamland is **** and every stagelist with it legal is ****.

*confetti*

I'm curious, what large stages would you like to see included in a stagelist? Do you have an opinion on Delfino's or Bowser's?

 

[DMG]

Dreamland sucks but most rulesets give bans in 3/5. There are plenty of MU's that don't devolve into degenerate or stupid gameplay on Dreamland.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah, the blast zones are dumb but to be honest the only characters that get ridiculous benefit from that are Samus and Snake. Other characters with good recoveries get decent benefit.

Like for a large majority of matchups the BZ aren't doing anything terrible, they're just inherently poor values.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm curious, what large stages would you like to see included in a stagelist? Do you have an opinion on Delfino's or Bowser's?

I'd have to play on Bowser's more before I get an opinion on it. Delfino's is perfectly fine, any issues it may have are only exaggerated by Dreamland 64 and not improved.

 

[DMG]

Main complaint about DS is moving platforms. Some people are adamant about platforms that do not tilt or move vertically

 

[Strong Badam]

RIP Fountain of Dreams and Green Hill Zone, then.

 

[JesteRace]

I have no problem with Delfino's platform layout, I love it, actually. We don't actually need a comically larger version of Battlefield, BUT there's some misunderstanding with the blast zones. While it is true that Dreamland's ceiling is way too high and Delfino's ceiling is much more reasonable, Dreamland's side blast zones are actually pretty appropriately wide for the large extreme. If you have Delfino instead, the distribution is a little off since it doesn't actually have that large of blast zones.

 

[nimigoha]

Well done me for creating a pretty balanced list using Mean and Standard Deviation analysis that no one will every use because they hate stages on it!

Yes, SW is Skyworld. Yes, YI is Yoshi's Island (Brawl).

I was tired of the "Small width equals small stage" paradigm. Green Hill Zone and FoD have a pretty large ceiling, true. But there's no small stage with a wide blast zone, until now!

Expecting literally no one to take this list seriously despite its impressive balance. The S/M/L is actually a calculation. I looked to see if the difference between the Stage Attribute and the Mean in that category was within half a Standard Deviation. If yes, then M. If no and larger, then L, if no and smaller, then S. Formula I used is =IF(abs(B$12-B2)<B$14/2, "M", IF(B2<B$12, "S", "L")). For context, this chart is in the upper leftmost position. "Nimigoha's List" is A1.

It worked out pretty well, considering that the attribute distribution of PM stages is pretty lacking.

So under my categories, the only time it's not 3/3/3 is when it's 2/5/2 which is not the end of the world for Ledge to Side, and when it's 2/4/3 for Center to Side, which is sorta unfortunate.

Also we have 4 walled, 4 non-walled, and then FD, which I consider in between.

Discuss, if you want. YI has elements that make it a pretty hilarious starter, but it also has like perfectly medium size and blast zones. It's basically "quirky Smashville".

Most notably, the 5 starters have a really cool distribution. Skyworld and PS2 are perfect opposites, and the other three are medium throughout.

 

[JesteRace]

That imbalance in side blastzones is a bigger problem than you think, especially with 2 bans. That's the problem with Skyworld. If you have a small stage with large blastzones, you have to have a medium or a large stage with small blastzones too or you won't have balance at the end. And there are none, unfortunately. I don't think Skyworld is a perfect opposite to PS2 either. It's much too open and they have similarly sized blastzones.

I still maintain the best (not perfect) opposite to PS2 is FoD. PS2 is a wide, open stage with a low ceiling and FoD is a small, cramped stage with a high ceiling. Simple as that.

 

[nimigoha]

you have to have a medium or a large stage with small blastzones too or you won't have balance at the end. And there are none, unfortunately.

Rumble Falls Kappa

 

[JesteRace]

Godlike stage. Let's get that on the next national.

 

[DrinkingFood]

YIB is terrible
BC is way more acceptable.
Also, no bans in 3/5, while it skews some matchups, also returns some strength to those characters that suffer from the character-first informed bans. Since you don't get bans and all. Ganon can now have his semi-free WL win on his CP and it's not a big deal because it's 1 game out of required 3 wins, rather than just 2.

 

[JesteRace]

Having free-win stages kind of invalidates the purpose of a larger set count. Ganon takes you to Wario Land then you take him to FD then you're basically in a normal 2/3 situation.

 

[4tlas]

If you have a small stage with large blastzones, you have to have a medium or a large stage with small blastzones too or you won't have balance at the end.

Assuming you want to have an even list with 2 elements. But you don't need to do opposites, you can do a triangle or (even better) 4 elements. So for example:

Small stage, high ceiling, small sides
Medium stage, low ceiling, medium sides
Medium stage, medium ceiling, small sides
Large stage, medium ceiling, large sides

This has "overall balance", but is it balanced? Idk, but it might be the best we can do for gameplay, we'd just have to try it to see.