Project M Recommended Ruleset

[4tlas]

Get someone to use this stagelist at a national then haha

I don't know what process non-PM-exclusive national TOs tend to use to determine a stagelist.

Otherwise, I think your best bet is again PMTV. We've got many things in the works.

 

[Cox Box]

I don't know what process non-PM-exclusive national TOs tend to use to determine a stagelist.

Otherwise, I think your best bet is again PMTV. We've got many things in the works.

This weekend I'm helping run a tournament that will use the NE 9 stage list. Our monthly tournaments usually have upwards of 50 entrants for PM, and we run Melee and Sm4sh too. I'll let you know how the stage list works out. If you're impatient you can watch our stream at HASL.tv if you want.

Since Nick is our main TO, he's delegated the upkeep of our PM ruleset to me. So to answer your question, stage lists are normally created by PM players, I guess.

 

[JesteRace]

This weekend I'm helping run a tournament that will use the NE 9 stage list. Our monthly tournaments usually have upwards of 50 entrants for PM, and we run Melee and Sm4sh too. I'll let you know how the stage list works out. If you're impatient you can watch our stream at HASL.tv if you want.

Since Nick is our main TO, he's delegated the upkeep of our PM ruleset to me. So to answer your question, stage lists are normally created by PM players, I guess.

I'll keep an eye out for that.

And yeah, the Nebraska 9 stagelist was my modification of a stagelist created by Yung Grime Lord, another player in our scene. Neither of us are TO's lol.

 

[4tlas]

Is it a national? I'm referring to things like Apex. Who do those TOs ask from the PM community?

 

[nimigoha]

Anyone know who runs this page: http://smashboards.com/rulesets/project-m/

 

[JesteRace]

Seems somewhat outdated. Not sure who(if anyone, currently) is running that.

 

[Kulprit]

I would guess that you could message Warchamp, SmashCapps, or someone of the like and talk to them about updating it.

 

[CORY]

Anyone know who runs this page: http://smashboards.com/rulesets/project-m/

Warchamp7 @Hylian

 

[Warchamp7]

I control it, what specific changes are wanted to it?

I want to revamp the ruleset section at some point to make it "customizable" and then you can link a customized ruleset.

For the time being though, it's static, and intended to be a liberal ruleset, not defacto.

If you're about to come to me with a 6 stage rule list cause you don't like the 10 there. Or because you think Wario Land and Yoshi's Story are the same stage, we've already beat that horse dead

 

[Charmilio]

I control it, what specific changes are wanted to it?

I want to revamp the ruleset section at some point to make it "customizable" and then you can link a customized ruleset.

For the time being though, it's static, and intended to be a liberal ruleset, not defacto.

If you're about to come to me with a 6 stage rule list cause you don't like the 10 there. Or because you think Wario Land and Yoshi's Story are the same stage, we've already beat that horse dead

A java applet or something would be dope, if your aiming for customizing rulesets. I can't recall who (pretty sure it was SOJ) but someone made a nice little html page for selecting stages that would generate a code to use in builds for custom stagelists. a nice GUI like that for regions to use to generate a ruleset would be nice, with different variations used in nationals as presets or even a fill in box would be nice. edit: the more modular the better. Stuff like choosing whether or not to have DSR/wobbles active would streamline the process a lot for TO's I think, but it's a lot of effort for no guaranteed payoff. other than adding a ban to Warioman though, that ruleset right now looks pretty solid.

edit: see something like this or this to get an idea of what I mean by making a generator GUI.

 

[nimigoha]

Question about where TOs got PM rulesets from came up and figured if it was from smashboards it was either this thread or that page, just wanted to know who maintained it. The two pages are very different.

Mainly your page still says stage first, this thread OP was updated to character first a while back.

Stagelist is still being discussed but in any case I thought it would make sense for both to have the same one for the time being. Yours is kinda random while this thread is 3.6 bottom/middle 10, which is fair enough for now as the "standard" stagelist even if this will be changed in the future.

Also the starter striking says to strike 6 stages to end up with 1 but your list (and this thread's list) are both 5 starter lists. Should be updated to avoid confusion.

Turning off auto-L cancel should be added if the buffer is being banned, for the same reasons.

"Infinites legal" seems like a loose idea, maybe add the 300% rule? Don't see a reason to change that from Melee even though that's a generally unofficial rule.

And yeah, Warioman.

 

[Deleted member]

I control it, what specific changes are wanted to it?

I want to revamp the ruleset section at some point to make it "customizable" and then you can link a customized ruleset.

For the time being though, it's static, and intended to be a liberal ruleset, not defacto.

If you're about to come to me with a 6 stage rule list cause you don't like the 10 there. Or because you think Wario Land and Yoshi's Story are the same stage, we've already beat that horse dead

frankly i think my OP is fine for copy + paste. it's basically how that rule set got there to begin with, but with a few alterations that clean it up a bit.

 

[ECHOnce]

Mainly your page still says stage first, this thread OP was updated to character first a while back.

I'm sure this would be reopening an old can of worms for this thread, but why did people here decide on character first? It's a common subject of discussion that pops up every few months, and while both sides feel strongly, I almost always see the stage-first supporters making better arguments. Their opposition usually rely on the run-of-the-mill "current ruleset isn't fair for Player X in ___ situation because of dorf counterpicks, dual main advantages, etc." then don't always address all of the flaws in their claim as they're pointed out.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm sure this would be reopening an old can of worms for this thread, but why did people here decide on character first? It's a common subject of discussion that pops up every few months, and while both sides feel strongly, I almost always see the stage-first supporters making better arguments. Their opposition usually rely on the run-of-the-mill "current ruleset isn't fair for Player X in ___ situation because of dorf counterpicks, dual main advantages, etc." then don't always address all of the flaws in their claim as they're pointed out.

wot

Flaws in stage first is that the person counterpicking can end up with a really powerful stage + character combination, rendering the bans of the winner irrelevant
And that the winner can turn a counterpick on it's nose with a character switch, rendering the counterpick useless
These are situations where the counterpicking process is not working correctly

Character first avoids these problems, thus making counterpicking much more consistent (essentially you always end up with something moderately in the losers favour, rather than having the possibility of these extremes on either end)

Arguments in support of stage first is that...people think breaking the process in your favour is cool?

 

[JesteRace]

If you're in the Facebook group, discussion has begun on what stagelist Shots Fired 2 should use.

Also I'm failing to see any downsides with character first whereas both players have the opportunity to circumvent the counterpick process in stage first. I mean, you pick stages in game 1 with the knowledge of who your opponent is playing, why wouldn't you for any other game?

 

[4tlas]

The only downside, as I've pointed out before, is that a majority of people LIKE negating stages with character counterpicks. Character First removes that ability along with all of the flaws of Stage First.

I was trying to brainstorm a compromise earlier, but it got washed away when this stagelist was presented. We might want to go back to that.

 

[Kneato]

Why go to the effort of hashing out a balanced stagelist and tailoring a ban system around it to be as fair as possible when players have the ability to completely cheat that system.

 

[4tlas]

Why go to the effort of hashing out a balanced stagelist and tailoring a ban system around it to be as fair as possible when players have the ability to completely cheat that system.

Because they want to. They want it designed in that way.

 

[JOE!]

They want it that way so that they can cheat the system, Atlas.

See: any munchkin ever

 

[4tlas]

They want it that way so that they can cheat the system, Atlas.

See: any munchkin ever

Yes exactly.

 

[JesteRace]

After tomorrow's tournament, which is the last PM tourney in Nebraska for the year, we will be immediately switching to character first for 2016.

 

[Zach777]

Has anyone ever thought of coming to a compromise between stage-first and character-first?

Hear me out.

Both sides have good pros, honestly. Stage-first's main pro is that it encourages secondaries. This is literally the main reason why people would reasonably want stage-first.
The con of stage-first is the fact that the rule generally negates stage banning and makes it a waste of time.

Character-first ensures that stage banning is always useful. Never letting someone cheat the system. However, it can favor solo-mains.

Why not make it where the system is stage-first but if the winner switches his character, the loser gets an extra ban to use.

The set would work like this.

Typical game 1.
Onto the beginning of game 2.
Winner bans stages
Winner elects to choose character
Loser elects to choose character.
If loser changed his character, winner gets an extra ban on the stagelist.
Loser chooses stage.

While my system (call it compromisedstage-first) still has the con of people cheating the rules, it lessens the impact and finds a balance between solo-mains and secondary users.

Any thoughts on my idea?

 

[Bazkip]

Has anyone ever thought of coming to a compromise between stage-first and character-first?

Hear me out.

Both sides have good pros, honestly. Stage-first's main pro is that it encourages secondaries. This is literally the main reason why people would reasonably want stage-first.
The con of stage-first is the fact that the rule generally negates stage banning and makes it a waste of time.

Character-first ensures that stage banning is always useful. Never letting someone cheat the system. However, it can favor solo-mains.

Why not make it where the system is stage-first but if the winner switches his character, the loser gets an extra ban to use.

The set would work like this.

Typical game 1.
Onto the beginning of game 2.
Winner bans stages
Winner elects to choose character
Loser elects to choose character.
If loser changed his character, winner gets an extra ban on the stagelist.
Loser chooses stage.

While my system (call it compromisedstage-first) still has the con of people cheating the rules, it lessens the impact and finds a balance between solo-mains and secondary users.

Any thoughts on my idea?

You're making the false assumption that character first favours solo mains. Character first favours nobody. The outcome of the counterpicking process is the same if you main the entire cast or just one character. It is always even for both players.

Keep in mind that multi mains will always be advantaged by virtue of being able to avoid bad matchups or certain stage types (E.X. A Ganon main can switch to a secondary when being counterpicked to avoid being taken to a large stage). You shouldn't be tailoring the ruleset to favour the already advantaged party.

 

[JesteRace]

There is literally no way for a ruleset to "favor solo-mains" like wtf, that's such a dumb argument.

 

[nimigoha]

Zach777 your ruleset isn't much of an improvement because you're still banning before you know the matchup, so it's completely up in the air whether or not your bans will actually do anything. You might ban 2 stages then your opponent switches to a character where those are their worst stages and they're laughing.

Character first:
1) You lost the first game
2) Your opponent chooses their character before you do
3) You now have the opportunity to counterpick their character to make the matchup more favourable for yourself
4) Through bans and pick the two of you pick a stage to play the matchup on. It's in favour of the character you just picked.

Pros

• Follows screen order
• Follows order of first game
• Intelligent stage bans
• Winner of previous game won't get advantage where they don't deserve it
• Favours playing multiple characters

Cons

• No "hype" cheesy character swaps to steal your opponent's counterpick that people seem to love

 

[nimigoha]

Double post to revitalize.

Beast 6 Ruleset is Character first, Nebraska ruleset minus Dreamland plus Delfino and Norfair.

That's pretty sweet tbh.

 

[4tlas]

Ew, even bigger and flatter? =P

 

[JesteRace]

I mean, it's not great, but it's better than most. Idk what the hell Norfair is doing on there though. Are they running Bowser's Castle as a neutral?

 

[Bazkip]

I mean, it's not great, but it's better than most. Idk what the hell Norfair is doing on there though. Are they running Bowser's Castle as a neutral?

http://beast-series.com/rules/pm/

 

[JesteRace]

Omg they actually are. That's awesome. My arguments against Delfino have been made already, and seriously wtf Norfair I don't get it at least do Yoshi's Island if you need a 10th stage jesus christ, but overall I can live with it since it's pretty close.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I understand norfair can be polarizing in some matchups, but I'd need some convincing to consider it as more of a problem than FD.

 

[JesteRace]

I don't consider it as more of a problem than FD. Not inherently anyway. But having both in this stagelist skews towards low ceilings(and large stages, probably, Norfair is kinda borderline and I wouldn't consider it a medium stage) and having Norfair over FD takes away a wide blastzone stage, which is bad, and would also add to the controversy which halts progression on having a national standard blahblahblah.

 

[Strong Badam]

There's no reason for FD to be banned. That's absurd. Replacing it with Norfair is even more absurd.

 

[4tlas]

There's no reason for FD to be banned. That's absurd. Replacing it with Norfair is even more absurd.

Would you care to elaborate on that? What is absurd about banning FD?

 

[ECHOnce]

Would you care to elaborate on that? What is absurd about banning FD?

FD offers what no other stage does. Norfair and a few others (GHZ, SV) offer a pseudo no-plats stage, but just that and having similar stage dimensions shouldn't mean it's fit to replacing the only actual one. Plus, even with the large-ish blastzones, it's super tall plats allow for way early kills off the top. It's one of the easier stages to circle camp on, especially for those with bad fastfall speeds. Characters with bad anti juggle tools might struggle to get down from plats. Not gonna touch on jank platform heights since that'd become a non-issue with time.

Every CP should put some characters at an advantage over others, but imo Norfair has the potential to be one of the more polarizing large stages. BC, FD, DS, DL >>>>>>>> Norfair, whichever three of the four are picked.

 

[Strong Badam]

Norfair encourages degenerative strategy (that can be found elsewhere to lesser extent) against several characters in many MUs. FD introduces very specific punishment options in matchups involving 4 characters, who are welcome to ban it in those MUs and often favor it in others.

 

[4tlas]

FD offers what no other stage does. Norfair and a few others (GHZ, SV) offer a pseudo no-plats stage, but just that and having similar stage dimensions shouldn't mean it's fit to replacing the only actual one. Plus, even with the large-ish blastzones, it's super tall plats allow for way early kills off the top. It's one of the easier stages to circle camp on, especially for those with bad fastfall speeds. Characters with bad anti juggle tools might struggle to get down from plats. Not gonna touch on jank platform heights since that'd become a non-issue with time.

Every CP should put some characters at an advantage over others, but imo Norfair has the potential to be one of the more polarizing large stages. BC, FD, DS, DL >>>>>>>> Norfair, whichever three of the four are picked.

Sorry, I guess I should've been more specific. I didn't say anything about Norfair. I think Norfair is worse than FD too. I was asking what is absurd about the idea of banning FD.

Norfair encourages degenerative strategy (that can be found elsewhere to lesser extent) against several characters in many MUs. FD introduces very specific punishment options in matchups involving 4 characters, who are welcome to ban it in those MUs and often favor it in others.

I wasn't asking about Norfair, just an elaboration on what is "absurd" about banning FD. Is there some reason you are only analyzing FD in terms of 4 specific characters and their matchups?

 

[Narpas_sword]

There's no reason for FD to be banned. That's absurd. Replacing it with Norfair is even more absurd.

Yea, i wasnt saying that FD was a problem that should get banned, but usually that the reasons given for not having norfair can apply to FD too.

 

[Strong Badam]

I wasn't asking about Norfair, just an elaboration on what is "absurd" about banning FD. Is there some reason you are only analyzing FD in terms of 4 specific characters and their matchups?

Because those 4 matchups are those that grant the most significant advantage? Most players tend to cite the extremes when determining stage legality.

 

[4tlas]

Because those 4 matchups are those that grant the most significant advantage? Most players tend to cite the extremes when determining stage legality.

Ok, that's fair.

Its most extreme trait is how flat and thus open it is. It is THE flat stage. It is also a huge and open stage. The flatness is a nice thing to have in the stagelist, but the other traits combine to make the stage very polarizing. There should be very few times that FD is both not banned and picked, if ever. At least if FD was small, then there would be some trait in opposition to the rest that might cause the stage to not get banned yet still get picked.

There are plenty of other stages available that are close enough to being FD without also complementing that openness by being huge. GHZ, Skyworld, and Smashville are examples. Norfair is pretty much just FD + platform camping, so it could be argued that its strictly worse.