Pretty in pink or true in blue, Krystal for Sm4sh!

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I know right?

Even the most credible members have bias. Everybody has bias. Nobody is innocent.
Heck, even though he never really says it much, he actually thinks there was ANY hope for Waluigi or Tails.

Also, I'm not a girl. Get it right, knucklehead!

Everyone is gurl to me...EVERYONE

Also, Waluigi and Tails...ew

It kinda sounds like he has some pretty bad opinions, I mean c'mon know

 

[Delzethin]

To those of you who haven't seen the Rate Their Chances thread, we're discussing Krystal for about one more hour. Anyone who sees this who hasn't weighed in yet, head over there if you have the chance.

...But please, be honest about your ratings. We need the scores to be accurate, and artificially inflating them would do more harm than good.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Everyone is gurl to me...EVERYONE

Also, Waluigi and Tails...ew

It kinda sounds like he has some pretty bad opinions, I mean c'mon know

I'll agree to this though. I'm a Sonic fan, and I do like Waluigi, but propagating them in Smash is going too far.

 

[jahkzheng]

To those of you who haven't seen the Rate Their Chances thread, we're discussing Krystal for about one more hour. Anyone who sees this who hasn't weighed in yet, head over there if you have the chance.

...But please, be honest about your ratings. We need the scores to be accurate, and artificially inflating them would do more harm than good.

Thanks Delzethin. I was just about to make this same post. I'd like to at least see some of us Krystal supporters get in there and make sure her "Want" percentage is respectable. There's a lot of people giving her low percents but a number of us have given her 100% Wants and there's a few in there giving her about 50%. I'm hoping when the final tally comes in were higher than 35% and maybe even at 50%. I want the thread to see that people want her more than maybe they realize. I'd like to see her be competitive "want"-wise with Bandana Dee, Captain Toad, and other characters that aren't as clearly popular as say the Isaacs and Rools out there.

 

[Foxy Renegade]

First off, I don't see the point in trying to convince someone who comes in with sarcasm. Honestly, it looks more like he just wants to troll the fan-base, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. As for being unique, every character aside from very few are ALL unique in specific ways. Hell, even Lucina is technically "unique," hence why she got promoted from an alternate. The character does offer a combination of hand-to-hand combat along with the mastery of her staff. The staff also offers different elemental blasts that are unique from any character offered. Will the Down-Smash ("Quake," if they were to use that) hit both sides like Charizard's Down-Smash? Yes. If you are looking for uniqueness in that sense you won't find it. Most characters have some move that is very similar in terms of usage to another character. Also, in terms of uniqueness, she could strongly differentiate herself from Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

As for the people that state their reasoning for disliking her as "Furbait," or any other derogatory statement are usually pretty ignorant. Ask if they would rather Wolf be in or if they like any other characters like Fox or Falco (there are several other characters that could probably be argued to loosely fall into that category as well). If they say yes, then by their standards they are in fact a "furry." Technically, male animal-like characters fall into the category more because furries are generally homosexual males. So, by their logic, if you like most characters you're probably a furry. lol. (Also, I don't understand how it's anymore acceptable for people to infatuate themselves with anime female characters, but alas.)

I didn't post my opinion on the Rating Chances thread because I read through and the amount of bias a saw was frustrating. We attempt to stay fair and not inflate polls or surveys, meanwhile, we have every tool with a computer hating on the character before they've even considered researching them. We've seen polls where Krystal stands in the top 5 fairly consistently. That thread hasn't been artificially inflated, it's been artificially deflated.

 

[jahkzheng]

First off, I don't see the point in trying to convince someone who comes in with sarcasm. Honestly, it looks more like he just wants to troll the fan-base, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. As for being unique, every character aside from very few are ALL unique in specific ways. Hell, even Lucina is technically "unique," hence why she got promoted from an alternate. The character does offer a combination of hand-to-hand combat along with the mastery of her staff. The staff also offers different elemental blasts that are unique from any character offered. Will the Down-Smash ("Quake," if they were to use that) hit both sides like Charizard's Down-Smash? Yes. If you are looking for uniqueness in that sense you won't find it. Most characters have some move that is very similar in terms of usage to another character. Also, in terms of uniqueness, she could strongly differentiate herself from Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

As for the people that state their reasoning for disliking her as "Furbait," or any other derogatory statement are usually pretty ignorant. Ask if they would rather Wolf be in or if they like any other characters like Fox or Falco (there are several other characters that could probably be argued to loosely fall into that category as well). If they say yes, then by their standards they are in fact a "furry." Technically, male animal-like characters fall into the category more because furries are generally homosexual males. So, by their logic, if you like most characters you're probably a furry. lol. (Also, I don't understand how it's anymore acceptable for people to infatuate themselves with anime female characters, but alas.)

I didn't post my opinion on the Rating Chances thread because I read through and the amount of bias a saw was frustrating. We attempt to stay fair and not inflate polls or surveys, meanwhile, we have every tool with a computer hating on the character before they've even considered researching them. We've seen polls where Krystal stands in the top 5 fairly consistently. That thread hasn't been artificially inflated, it's been artificially deflated.

Yeah, there were some people that weren't a fan of Krystal but most of them didn't give a reason or simply said they were indifferent or weren't a fan of her character. I expect that and it doesn't offend me frankly. It's those that say she ruined Star Fox or "ew furries" that are the ones I really don't care for. Only a handful of those however. It wasn't so bad. Thanks for voting Renegade! I understand the importance of assessing her chances honestly, but I wanted us Krystal supporters to get in there and make sure he "want" numbers were respectable.

Also, if you were speaking of the Larry poster earlier, he came in with an honest question that I felt deserved an honest answer. Being silly in kind of his schtick from what I've seen of his posting so I wouldn't read to deeply into his sarcasm. I just hoped he saw what we had to say and actually did give it some thought even though he responded initially in a joking manner. I think we articulated good reasoning.

 

[Princess Toady]

Yeah, I don't get why you wrote him more than a one-liner, I wouldn't bother with someone who can't even troll well, lol. They probably ran away once they saw the sheer lengths of the posts here. In any case, glad to see that the rathe their chances thread brought a little more activity to these parts, even though a lot of the arguments that were used were really stupid. When people call Krystal a furry and acknowledge in the same post that Fox and Wolf also are furries but decide to only use the term for her, it is laughable. Thankfully, those are not the people in charge of making the roster though...

...well, Sakurai also has a way to not give me what I want, but that's another problem. To be fair though, so far all the characters that have been ranked are characters that I wanted to see in the game, so when I see people taking a dump on Bandana Dee because he is a Waddle Dee, or Toad because he is part of the species (like humans, omagad), or Isaac because he has a sword, K. Rool cause he's too big and I don't remember who the last one was, I can't help but laugh.

What can you say, some people are close-minded.

As for the ratings in themselves, they do not reflect reality, at least for this round. Like, you could almost wonder if people didn't just ask their friend to give her a double 0 in both want and possibility. Thankfully, Krystal fans are more casual people and they usually don't frequent such boards.

Foxy Renegade > Lawl, don't worry about it. Popularity will play a big role in the ballot, and you can bet Krystal is popular, no matter what said tools may proclaim.

CliffJumper : We Zelda users love to call people gurls, gurl.

 

[Foxy Renegade]

Well, there was the smack to Krystal on the final results. Luckily, that's not much of a representation since most of her followers aren't going to be located on this site. Hell, until recently I wasn't even here and knew very little about Smash Boards. Do some of those people realize how low a 10-15% chance actually is? Realistically, on the low side I believe she has about a 30-35% chance. In my own opinion she is somewhere between 45-55%, due to several reasons that I refuse to state for the millionth time. lol. Though, if for some reason the new Star Fox doesn't include her those chances will plummet.

As for Bandana Dee, I honestly can't really see it, but I refuse to rule out the probability. DeDeDe did lost the Waddle Dees and only throws the spiney-deals now, which seems suspicious. King K Rool I can see happening...probably a very goofy playstyle. And I believe Isaac is happening just because the demotion from Assist Trophy is suspicious to say the least (given his popularity to become a fighter). Honestly, I believe they were planning DLC the entire time and chose to leave certain things out that they believed may be fan-requested material in the future. All in all, a very strategic premeditated approach. I mean, do we really believe that they don't already have their own lineup created? I believe that if certain characters receive overwhelming support they will be included and vice-versa for hatred.

 

[IanTheGamer]

Everyone is gurl to me...EVERYONE

Also, Waluigi and Tails...ew

It kinda sounds like he has some pretty bad opinions, I mean c'mon know

Waluigi is the most irrelevant Mario character period, he was never in a Mario game that anyone cared about, or had any feeling other than "Meh", as for Tails, well there are other Sonic characters that would be better fits in Smash, like Eggman, Shadow, and Knuckles

 

[jahkzheng]

Yeah, I don't get why you wrote him more than a one-liner, I wouldn't bother with someone who can't even troll well, lol. They probably ran away once they saw the sheer lengths of the posts here. In any case, glad to see that the rathe their chances thread brought a little more activity to these parts, even though a lot of the arguments that were used were really stupid. When people call Krystal a furry and acknowledge in the same post that Fox and Wolf also are furries but decide to only use the term for her, it is laughable. Thankfully, those are not the people in charge of making the roster though...

...well, Sakurai also has a way to not give me what I want, but that's another problem. To be fair though, so far all the characters that have been ranked are characters that I wanted to see in the game, so when I see people taking a dump on Bandana Dee because he is a Waddle Dee, or Toad because he is part of the species (like humans, omagad), or Isaac because he has a sword, K. Rool cause he's too big and I don't remember who the last one was, I can't help but laugh.

What can you say, some people are close-minded.

As for the ratings in themselves, they do not reflect reality, at least for this round. Like, you could almost wonder if people didn't just ask their friend to give her a double 0 in both want and possibility. Thankfully, Krystal fans are more casual people and they usually don't frequent such boards.

Foxy Renegade > Lawl, don't worry about it. Popularity will play a big role in the ballot, and you can bet Krystal is popular, no matter what said tools may proclaim.

CliffJumper : We Zelda users love to call people gurls, gurl.

Well, I killed two birds with one stone then. If he was genuinely curious I did my best to give him a thoughtful answer. If he was a troll, I scared him away apparently.

In general, I try to assume better of people. People respond well to being treated fairly and thoughtfully. I think our behavior on the "Rate Their Chances" thread was a good reflection on us for example. We were nice and thoughtful. I think we have a bit more respect for it, even from those that don't necessarily agree with us. And those that still hang onto unjustified hate look foolish in comparison. I liked how the mod came in the other day and commented on how people hating Krystal because she "ruined Star Fox" or because "furry" reasons were basically idiots. That was unsolicited, but it's clear that even those that don't like Krystal for legit reasons see that we're a decent fanbase that shouldn't have to deal with crap like that.

The results of the "Rate Their Chances" was a half success. We knew Krystal's chances weren't going to be rated high because of the perception that Wolf will get in first, and it's an understandable conclusion. And we may not have gotten the highest "Want" rating, but we made it somewhat respectable. We can't fault ourselves for getting in there and helping her out. Some people aren't entirely sold of course, but I saw lots of indications that people will be more receptive and rate her chances higher once she's revealed for Star Fox Wii U. I still have high hopes.

Thanks all you guys that went in there and voted for Krystal!

...

Do I need to start calling people "gurl" then too?

Love using Zelda in this game. My avatar before this one was Zelda. Actually, I specifically picked out this Krystal avatar to have a face like my Zelda one, heh. I thought it would be funny and I like the expression.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

CliffJumper : We Zelda users love to call people gurls, gurl

I'm a Zelda fan, but I'm pretty sure there are lurking hardcore Zelda fans going "What the **** wuz that?"

 

[Delzethin]

Well, there was the smack to Krystal on the final results. Luckily, that's not much of a representation since most of her followers aren't going to be located on this site. Hell, until recently I wasn't even here and knew very little about Smash Boards. Do some of those people realize how low a 10-15% chance actually is? Realistically, on the low side I believe she has about a 30-35% chance. In my own opinion she is somewhere between 45-55%, due to several reasons that I refuse to state for the millionth time. lol. Though, if for some reason the new Star Fox doesn't include her those chances will plummet.

As for Bandana Dee, I honestly can't really see it, but I refuse to rule out the probability. DeDeDe did lost the Waddle Dees and only throws the spiney-deals now, which seems suspicious. King K Rool I can see happening...probably a very goofy playstyle. And I believe Isaac is happening just because the demotion from Assist Trophy is suspicious to say the least (given his popularity to become a fighter). Honestly, I believe they were planning DLC the entire time and chose to leave certain things out that they believed may be fan-requested material in the future. All in all, a very strategic premeditated approach. I mean, do we really believe that they don't already have their own lineup created? I believe that if certain characters receive overwhelming support they will be included and vice-versa for hatred.

I don't think they planned on having DLC from the start, but I think they kept their options open in case they felt like going through with it. They wouldn't have held back characters deliberately and I don't think they have their own "lineup" already made, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a short list they'll give higher priority to should the support be there for them, especially since they must be keeping tabs on the community if these balance patches are anything to go by. K. Rool and Isaac seem like near locks due to both massive fan support and matching the characteristics the newcomers for the main game had. Bandana Dee has a pretty decent shot, I think (Dedede's side special and final smash changing was probably because of 3DS limitations, actually), but I think Krystal's a little above him as far as chances go.

 

[jahkzheng]

Well, there was the smack to Krystal on the final results. Luckily, that's not much of a representation since most of her followers aren't going to be located on this site. Hell, until recently I wasn't even here and knew very little about Smash Boards. Do some of those people realize how low a 10-15% chance actually is? Realistically, on the low side I believe she has about a 30-35% chance. In my own opinion she is somewhere between 45-55%, due to several reasons that I refuse to state for the millionth time. lol. Though, if for some reason the new Star Fox doesn't include her those chances will plummet.

As for Bandana Dee, I honestly can't really see it, but I refuse to rule out the probability. DeDeDe did lost the Waddle Dees and only throws the spiney-deals now, which seems suspicious. King K Rool I can see happening...probably a very goofy playstyle. And I believe Isaac is happening just because the demotion from Assist Trophy is suspicious to say the least (given his popularity to become a fighter). Honestly, I believe they were planning DLC the entire time and chose to leave certain things out that they believed may be fan-requested material in the future. All in all, a very strategic premeditated approach. I mean, do we really believe that they don't already have their own lineup created? I believe that if certain characters receive overwhelming support they will be included and vice-versa for hatred.

Well, the "Rate Their Chances" thread gave her a 25% chance. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a 1 in 4 odds. Not too bad. I know it's hard to really get a sense for what a number like that could really mean since plenty of other characters could get similar odds, but the optimist in me has me feeling like it could mean that in 4 chances she'll get in. I would like higher numbers in all aspects of course and I'm hopeful for Star Fox Wii U in particular for that opportunity.

That theory that they could've been planning certain characters for DLC all along was a thought that crossed my mind. I remember thinking that could've been what they did with Wolf since cutting him was something they planned to rectify when Star Fox Wii U came out. I hope that wasn't the case since, although I'd like Wolf back, he should never have been cut and Krystal should be the rep that represents Star Fox Wii U's release. There's no way to know for sure however.

 

[Foxy Renegade]

I don't think they planned on having DLC from the start, but I think they kept their options open in case they felt like going through with it. They wouldn't have held back characters deliberately and I don't think they have their own "lineup" already made, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a short list they'll give higher priority to should the support be there for them, especially since they must be keeping tabs on the community if these balance patches are anything to go by. K. Rool and Isaac seem like near locks due to both massive fan support and matching the characteristics the newcomers for the main game had. Bandana Dee has a pretty decent shot, I think (Dedede's side special and final smash changing was probably because of 3DS limitations, actually), but I think Krystal's a little above him as far as chances go.

To any degree they did technically have a lineup already in place. Mewtwo and Lucas are proof of that lineup. But as for what you're saying about a short list is basically what I meant. Characters have already been selected and depending on the fans' response it may change slightly who is on that list and in what order they are presented. They kept certain characters out to keep their options open for DLC, or else I doubt they would have just removed Waddle Dees from D3's attack and Isaac from the game in general. Sakurai surely already has made some sort of a list...if he listened purely to fans WFT and a few others would never have made it in. lol

 

[Wolfheart07]

It's familiarity, more or less. Whenever a character gets left out after being in a previous game, suddenly they gain a huge following. Within the last year, Lucas went from being an "eh" character with a cult classic game to being super requested. The Ice Climbers went from being loathed for their grab infinite to having some people demand the developers break the rules they set regarding exclusivity so they can be in the Wii U version. Roy is suddenly put on a pedestal despite being irrelevant to his series, being generally disliked by Fire Emblem fans for being dull and generic, and despite the fact that the people nostalgic for him are outweighed by the people who'd see no reason to purchase a second Marth clone. And in this case, Wolf became the single most requested DLC character after Mewtwo years after his inclusion in Brawl was met with massive backlash.

Granted, at least Wolf is barely even a semi-clone, but still.

It gives supporters of newcomers a problem because they're going up against characters who fans already have fond memories of...and it's frustrating, to be honest. Especially in our case, since many of us believe that Wolf and Krystal can both get in. It seems like everyone else thinks one would rule out the other, and they'll be damned if some upstart vixen gets the "roster spot" a character they remember well "deserves".

That's why I believe that the chances for both Krystal and Wolf to be DLC for Smash 4 are really good and with SF Wii U in the table coming up, it's even better. What matters most is that we are all supporters for her and have been wanting her in since Brawl. We must continue to keep it alive no matter what happens.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

So there's another placeholder type leak from the same guy who datamined roy and ryu. Wonder what you guys' thoughts are on it.

 

[jahkzheng]

So there's another placeholder type leak from the same guy who datamined roy and ryu. Wonder what you guys' thoughts are on it.

I have not heard of this.

...

Go on.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

First off, I don't see the point in trying to convince someone who comes in with sarcasm. Honestly, it looks more like he just wants to troll the fan-base, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. As for being unique, every character aside from very few are ALL unique in specific ways. Hell, even Lucina is technically "unique," hence why she got promoted from an alternate. The character does offer a combination of hand-to-hand combat along with the mastery of her staff. The staff also offers different elemental blasts that are unique from any character offered. Will the Down-Smash ("Quake," if they were to use that) hit both sides like Charizard's Down-Smash? Yes. If you are looking for uniqueness in that sense you won't find it. Most characters have some move that is very similar in terms of usage to another character. Also, in terms of uniqueness, she could strongly differentiate herself from Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

As for the people that state their reasoning for disliking her as "Furbait," or any other derogatory statement are usually pretty ignorant. Ask if they would rather Wolf be in or if they like any other characters like Fox or Falco (there are several other characters that could probably be argued to loosely fall into that category as well). If they say yes, then by their standards they are in fact a "furry." Technically, male animal-like characters fall into the category more because furries are generally homosexual males. So, by their logic, if you like most characters you're probably a furry. lol. (Also, I don't understand how it's anymore acceptable for people to infatuate themselves with anime female characters, but alas.)

I didn't post my opinion on the Rating Chances thread because I read through and the amount of bias a saw was frustrating. We attempt to stay fair and not inflate polls or surveys, meanwhile, we have every tool with a computer hating on the character before they've even considered researching them. We've seen polls where Krystal stands in the top 5 fairly consistently. That thread hasn't been artificially inflated, it's been artificially deflated.

Yes you're wrong, I was dead serious.
It bugged me that I didn't seem to see something everyone said, so I came here to ask your opinion.

Thanks to a few people here, I've visualised her moveset a bit and yeah it's actually really cool.
I've also read (because @BluePikmin11 advised that) that her Staff has a sharp point (that Fox used against an animal King),
with the other side being the top.

Both sides of the staff having unique properties (Because the top is what can fire fire), Krystals moveset will most defnitely be unique.

The uniqueness of the staff just escaped to me, no trolling intended at all.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I have not heard of this.

...

Go on.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...c_data_found_in_the_last_update_more/.compact

Now the question is, is this pre poll or not? Also we could get 7 more stages. But yeah the mario placeholder seems to be for, lucas, roy, ryu, 2 more. If this is pre poll id say it'd be good news.

 

[jahkzheng]

Yes you're wrong, I was dead serious.
It bugged me that I didn't seem to see something everyone said, so I came here to ask your opinion.

Thanks to a few people here, I've visualised her moveset a bit and yeah it's actually really cool.
I've also read (because @BluePikmin11 advised that) that her Staff has a sharp point (that Fox used against an animal King),
with the other side being the top.

Both sides of the staff having unique properties (Because the top is what can fire fire), Krystals moveset will most defnitely be unique.

The uniqueness of the staff just escaped to me, no trolling intended at all.

Awesome! I had a feeling you weren't being trolly since from what I've seen of your posts, you're just kind of a joker anyways, heh. No harm done I hope. Foxy Renegade may have just gotten a bit defensive because sadly us Krystal supporters do get a lot of undue flack and thus expect it now.

There's so many fun moveset ideas. I've been thinking for a while about drawing my own up just to better illustrate things. But that would be just one idea of many. May get some interested in her to see it and not just read about it though.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...c_data_found_in_the_last_update_more/.compact

Now the question is, is this pre poll or not? Also we could get 7 more stages. But yeah the mario placeholder seems to be for, lucas, roy, ryu, 2 more. If this is pre poll id say it'd be good news.

This is kind of what I gathered was in the data mine report to begin with. I understood that Roy and Ryu were in there as victory themes and that there was an additional Kirby stage apparently hiding in the data too along with possible others. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to see. I guess 7 new stages is something new? I knew there was data for more than one additional stage but I didn't know the exact number to begin with. I guess 7 is more than what was originally thought to be indicated? Also not sure what "2 more" could mean. Is the implication that these 2 other places are for pre-ballot characters? I guess that bodes well for us assuming more slots will open up later in the data. Just two more characters total after the confirmed and rumored DLC is probably not enough for Krystal to sneak in. But maybe this is just data for pre-ballot plans. And then there's the chance that, seeing as this is leftover data, that this isn't all the data.

Let me know if I'm missing anything or "the point".

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Awesome! I had a feeling you weren't being trolly since from what I've seen of your posts, you're just kind of a joker anyways, heh. No harm done I hope. Foxy Renegade may have just gotten a bit defensive because sadly us Krystal supporters do get a lot of undue flack and thus expect it now.

There's so many fun moveset ideas. I've been thinking for a while about drawing my own up just to better illustrate things. But that would be just one idea of many. May get some interested in her to see it and not just read about it though.




This is kind of what I gathered was in the data mine report to begin with. I understood that Roy and Ryu were in there as victory themes and that there was an additional Kirby stage apparently hiding in the data too along with possible others. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to see. I guess 7 new stages is something new? I knew there was data for more than one additional stage but I didn't know the exact number to begin with. I guess 7 is more than what was originally thought to be indicated? Also not sure what "2 more" could mean. Is the implication that these 2 other places are for pre-ballot characters? I guess that bodes well for us assuming more slots will open up later in the data. Just two more characters total after the confirmed and rumored DLC is probably not enough for Krystal to sneak in. But maybe this is just data for pre-ballot plans. And then there's the chance that, seeing as this is leftover data, that this isn't all the data.

Let me know if I'm missing anything or "the point".

The dataminer dipped into the stage/character files, in the original he looked into the music files.

Yes, the 7 stages is new. And correct. Its being assumed that 2 more characters are being added to the roy/ryu/lucas mix. (There are 5 placeholder "marios" after mewtwo) Which was unknown in the original sound file leak. But it is not known whether its just gonna be wolf + ballot winner or two more characters, THEN they dip into the ballot.

If you dont quite understand, there's a wordpress linked in the reddit link that explains better, as i cant explain well haha.

With this data i can see the assurance of wolf and another vet (snake?) being planned pre ballot. If this data is pre ballot, which most assume it is.

Just wanted to know if you guys' thoughts on this to see if she has a shot, knowing this data

 

[jahkzheng]

The dataminer dipped into the stage/character files, in the original he looked into the music files.

Yes, the 7 stages is new. And correct. Its being assumed that 2 more characters are being added to the roy/ryu/lucas mix. (There are 5 placeholder "marios" after mewtwo) Which was unknown in the original sound file leak. But it is not known whether its just gonna be wolf + ballot winner or two more characters, THEN they dip into the ballot.

If you dont quite understand, there's a wordpress linked in the reddit link that explains better, as i cant explain well haha.

With this data i can see the assurance of wolf and another vet (snake?) being planned pre ballot. If this data is pre ballot, which most assume it is.

Just wanted to know if you guys' thoughts on this to see if she has a shot, knowing this data

Well, it's info that only really raises more questions than it gives answers. I can't really feel anything about it other than to hope for the best. Personally, I'd rather this not mean much because we're not seeing everything.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Moveset time!
Since B moves are easy for Krystal (Fire/Ice/Quake/Portal or Quick Flash), so I'm only doing some A-moves.
I have two different versions of some moves, since I thought the moveset is a bit too much staff.
Fire-end of the staff deals fire damage and deals more knockback than the sharp end.

Jab: Stabs two times with the sharp side of the staff, then another one with the top of the staff, dealing fire-damage and good knockback.

FTilt: Palutena's Jab finisher, but with longer range and fire-damage. Comboes into itsel.

UTilt: Krystal throws her staff up straight and the staff comes down.

DTilt: Krystal slams her staff in the ground, the opponent gets knocked up.

Dash Attack: Joust Attack
Krystal uses her Staff as a pole and attacks with it.
Halfway the attack, Krystal twirls her staff, so that the sharp end of the stick hits.

Nair: You know that the Staff shrinks in size in SF:A?
Now it stretches for a short time while Krystal keeps the staff horizontally.

Fair: Same animation as FTilt, but with an attack of the sharp side at the end.

UAir: Krystal throws the staff up vertically and then spins it with telekinesis. (Although she might not have it, it's her staff so there should be some kind of tele-connection between the two.)

Bair: The staff releases a fire burst.

Dair: Pogo Stick
Krystal spins the staff once vertically.
The sharp part is a meteor smash

FSmash: Fire Blast
Krystal charges her staff, which lets out an explosion.

USmash: Ice Storm
Krystal charges her staff, which lets out a cloud of Ice.
Low damage, but Freezes opponents.

DSmash: Fire Quake
Krystal charges her staff, slams it into the ground upside down.
The ground around then turns fiery.

FThrow: Krystal throws the opponent forward and snipes the opponent with fireblasts.
BThrow: judo kick.
DThrow: Krystal slams the sharp end of the stick end spins it around telekinetically.
UThrow: Krystal throws the opponent up, as well as the staff, which releases a firebreath-like attack.

 

[jahkzheng]

Moveset time!
Since B moves are easy for Krystal (Fire/Ice/Quake/Portal or Quick Flash), so I'm only doing some A-moves.
I have two different versions of some moves, since I thought the moveset is a bit too much staff.
Fire-end of the staff deals fire damage and deals more knockback than the sharp end.

Jab: Stabs two times with the sharp side of the staff, then another one with the top of the staff, dealing fire-damage and good knockback.

FTilt: Palutena's Jab finisher, but with longer range and fire-damage. Comboes into itsel.

UTilt: Krystal throws her staff up straight and the staff comes down.

DTilt: Krystal slams her staff in the ground, the opponent gets knocked up.

Dash Attack: Joust Attack
Krystal uses her Staff as a pole and attacks with it.
Halfway the attack, Krystal twirls her staff, so that the sharp end of the stick hits.

Nair: You know that the Staff shrinks in size in SF:A?
Now it stretches for a short time while Krystal keeps the staff horizontally.

Fair: Same animation as FTilt, but with an attack of the sharp side at the end.

UAir: Krystal throws the staff up vertically and then spins it with telekinesis. (Although she might not have it, it's her staff so there should be some kind of tele-connection between the two.)

Bair: The staff releases a fire burst.

Dair: Pogo Stick
Krystal spins the staff once vertically.
The sharp part is a meteor smash

FSmash: Fire Blast
Krystal charges her staff, which lets out an explosion.

USmash: Ice Storm
Krystal charges her staff, which lets out a cloud of Ice.
Low damage, but Freezes opponents.

DSmash: Fire Quake
Krystal charges her staff, slams it into the ground upside down.
The ground around then turns fiery.

FThrow: Krystal throws the opponent forward and snipes the opponent with fireblasts.
BThrow: judo kick.
DThrow: Krystal slams the sharp end of the stick end spins it around telekinetically.
UThrow: Krystal throws the opponent up, as well as the staff, which releases a firebreath-like attack.

Nice moveset. One thing though. Krystal is a telepath/empath but she's not a Ness or Mewtwo like psychic. The most that she can do as far as we know is read thoughts or sense feelings. But this is cool because it means she's not going to be doing anything Palutena like with her staff at all. She'll have it in her hands to use it at all times, at least conventionally.

Here's mine from a couple weeks ago if you're interested...

I liked my storable staff power gimmick, but of course I would since I came up with it.

Basically, her neutral B can be rapid fired or stored. If it's stored, the staff blinks or glows like when Samus stores a charged shot. Now, Krystal can either press B again to unleash a powerful charged projectile, or she can save the stored charge and her next smash, including Robin-esque aerial smashes, could gain a special effect. So with a charged staff Krystal can give these following moves a special effect... fsmash, dsmash, usmash, fair, bair, dair, uair. For convenience, I'll call the charged staff a "primed staff".

I'll describe my standard attack ideas since we're doing that now I guess. It will also help people visualize how the gimmick works.

Jab - Taken from Adventures, it's a modification on Fox's staff combo when you hold the control stick down. The Adventure's combo is a staff attack swinging from top right to bottom left, then an upswing going back from bottom left to back and to the right, then Fox spins the staff in front of him moving it from right to left and back, then he makes a sharp horizontal swing from left to right and if you hold the attack button her charges up his staff. The plan with Krystal is to have the final hit of her jab be the horizontal swing but let it happen before the charge. She'll be able to charge the staff much like Fox does in Adventures and it'll be a quicker alternative to her neutral B charge. This will put her staff into a "primed" mode ready to be used by pressing neutral B for powerful projectile or to be used with a smash. Since this one is complicated, I'll link a video example... https://youtu.be/bqmpRI9XeMM?t=25m44s

One minute prior to that fight scene in the video you can hear Krystal's description of the staff and the fact that it has the power to teach Fox it's abilities. This further emphasizes that what Fox does with the staff are likely things Krystal could too.

Now for the rest of the moves....

Dash Attack - A running roundoff into a slide. It resembles her dodge in Assault and I imagine it resembling her forward roll in Smash. Could be a bit confusing to the opponent looking the same as the roll, but instead having a hitbox on her legs as she flips and on her body when she lands. It's a slower dash with longer range moving her forward. Think Zamus's dash attack and how it shoots forward and the brunt of the hit is at the end.

Ftilt - Krystal pulls the staff from the holster on her back quickly and swings the staff forward in a vertical arch while leaning forward on one foot. This is a quick ftilt with great range and low knockback. A great poking tool, even if it's a swing, heh.

Utilt - Krystal claw swipes above her head quickly and and follows up with a flexible kick swinging up similar to Sheik's utilt as I recall. Lowish knockback and can combo at low percents. The time between the two strikes is very minimal.

Dtilt - a crouched spin that hits with her tail and her staff in front of her. Like Fox and Falco's dtilt except she gets a second stronger hit with the staff immediately after her tail hit. Isn't as useful as a combo attack being more powerful but it gives her some space similar to Ganon's dtilt thanks to her staff.

Fsmash - Krystal uses a double strike smash similar to Link's. She first stabs her staff into the ground diagonally in front of her. She can then pause before inputting the second part of the smash, which is a vaulted flying kick. She uses her staff as a pole vault to launch herself into her kick. The second attack is the powerfule attack while the first strike is a weak attack that pops the enemy up into the kicks sweet spot. If you miss with the first strike, the second strike can be ducked under by some characters. She moves forward similar to Fox with this move.

Fsmash Prime - Same as her usual Fsmash but the first strike cause paralysis similar to Zamus's gun. This allows her to cancel the second hit and run in for a grab or other follow up.

Usmash - Krystal slams her staff down on it's end and stabs it upwards. The effect is similar to Shulk's usmash, with the slam down catching opponents and the stab up launching them.

Usmash Prime - The stab up has an added ice effect that can freeze opponent in a block of ice at mid to high damages. The more damage the longer they stay frozen. This allows you to follow up hit them in midair after they get frozen.

Dsmash - Krystal raises her staff up and slams it down hard creating a quake. It's launch power isn't huge but it attacks on either side of Krystal simultaneously for good damage. It's a slow attack even uncharged though with more cool down than the other smashes.

Dsmash Prime - Same as her regular dsmash except opponents inside her hurtbox during the move get buried. The cool down is a bit less too, allowing her to follow up. The range of the move is slightly increased on both side of her and the sourspot hits do the same thing as the regular Dsmash.

Nair - Krystal jumps and tucks her legs up tight and pulls her staff in front of her torso horizontally and spins. Similar effect as Zelda's nair. Krystal's tail and folded knees are low sour spot hitboxes that pull the opponent in and up into her more damaging a ranged staff hitbox.

Fair - Krystal jumps and spins forward in a tightly tucked somersault with the staff in it's holster on her back, but extended. This move imparts momentum in the direction it's used. It's her slowest aerial too with significant landing lag. Her spin ends with her pulling the staff from her back and breaking her spin by punching the staff in front of her and opening her body. Her tail, front of her body, and head are sour spot hitboxes that drag into the staff hitbox during the spin. Her spin is similarly as fast as Wolf's nair. If the opponent was trapped in the staff's hitbox, when the spin ends they'll be launched diagonally up at the end of the move. If she spaces it right and hits opponents with the strong end hitbox without trapping them in the spin, she can semi-spike opponents that get under her.

Fair Prime - Same as regular fair except the staff does electrical damage and has a strong semi-spike on it's final hit.

Bair - Krystal swings her left leg back in a move much like the rest of her Star Fox comrades, but follows immediately with a sharp staff swing behind her. Even though it's a two hit move it's pretty fast. The kick is a sex kick that lingers and can knock into the staff hit. The way it looks is Krystal kicks her left leg back and at the same time reaches over her right shoulder to grab the holstered staff and swings the staff as she turns her head and body left in the direction her leg just kicked.

Bair Prime - Same as regular bair but the staff shoots a couple blaster shots quickly similar to Villagers bair. This gives it range. Hitting with the staff allows the opponent to be combo'd into the blaster shots and get pushed out further. It's a tad slower as a result though.

Uair - Krystal spins her staff above her head very similar to a Pit move. Not much else to say here. Obviously I could think of something more unique, but this gives her a juggling tool that's protects her hurtbox from above fairly well. It's a quick move.

Uair Prime - Same as uair but this one has a windbox that extends above and beside Krystal, pushing opponents away. A great gimp tool against bad recoveries or to keep opponents above you like with Game and Watch's uair. Maybe it could even gain Mega Man uair effects in prime mode.

Dair - Krystal stabs her staff down and a blast of rocket boost fires off. Has stalling effects like ROB's dair. Strong spike.

Dair Prime - Same as regular Dair but the hitbox lingers and actually pushes Krystal up a good amount. The staff can be primed with this move in mind and dair can be used in concert with her up B giving her an awesome recovery boost!

Anyways, those are all the basics. I'm not gonna get into grabs, throws, getup attacks and the like and I already spoke briefly about specials. Some of these I'm really keen on and other I'm not totally sold on my own idea yet. I do like most of them though.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Nice moveset. One thing though. Krystal is a telepath/empath but she's not a Ness or Mewtwo like psychic. The most that she can do as far as we know is read thoughts or sense feelings. But this is cool because it means she's not going to be doing anything Palutena like with her staff at all. She'll have it in her hands to use it at all times.

Here's mine from a couple weeks ago if you're interested...

Yes, I know, but 1. She does have mind-powerlike attributes, and 2. It's her staff.
While it's not that she can make Bowser fly away, I'm sure it's not a stretch that she can make HER staff spin a few times.

And if that is not the case, it's not like the staff lacks any magic capabilities.

Nice moveset, it implements more kicks and swipes.
I like it.

 

[jahkzheng]

Yes, I know, but 1. She does have mind-powerlike attributes, and 2. It's her staff.
While it's not that she can make Bowser fly away, I'm sure it's not a stretch that she can make HER staff spin a few times.

And if that is not the case, it's not like the staff lacks any magic capabilities.

Nice moveset, it implements more kicks and swipes.
I like it.

Nah, that makes sense. It's true that the staff has some unusual properties. The quake move in Adventures, for instance, has Fox levitate a while before he slams the staff down for the attack. The staff can also create force fields and such too so it has that kind of property. Also, not sure if you're familiar with Adventures but the staff even gave it's user the ability to disguise themselves. I'm not sure how at all that could be mixed in there, but it just another thing to think about.

I liked your joust idea for dash attack, and it's one I feel I've heard before too. You also gave her smashes lots of elemental properties which is unique. I did something similar but via my gimmick idea. I also like the idea of using her staff's ability to change length. Initially I had moveset ideas where maybe she could use the staff extending as a stab, but I didn't really.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Nah, that makes sense. It's true that the staff has some unusual properties. The quake move in Adventures, for instance, has Fox levitate a while before he slams the staff down for the attack. The staff can also create force fields and such too so it has that kind of property. Also, not sure if you're familiar with Adventures but the staff even gave it's user the ability to disguise themselves. I'm not sure how at all that could be mixed in there, but it just another thing to think about.

I liked your joust idea for dash attack, and it's one I feel I've heard before too. You also gave her smashes lots of elemental properties which is unique. I did something similar but via my gimmick idea. I also like the idea of using her staff's ability to change length. Initially I had moveset ideas where maybe she could use the staff extending as a stab, but I didn't really.

A Force Field huh?
Maybe that'd be a nice attack an electric forcefield around Krystal that zaps opponents.
I don't know what attack that would be though.

I don't think disguising would be implemented, if it is even possible, it should be the main deal of a new character like Ditto or Zoroark.

I thought about a Neutral B that extended her staff's length but I figured that wasn't really unique to Krystal. (I basically have thought about that one for everybody with a sword/spear/staff)

It just fitted for a Nair and decided to go with it.
I don't think the stretch-thing should be applied for more attacks though.

 

[jahkzheng]

A Force Field huh?
Maybe that'd be a nice attack an electric forcefield around Krystal that zaps opponents.
I don't know what attack that would be though.

I don't think disguising would be implemented, if it is even possible, it should be the main deal of a new character like Ditto or Zoroark.

I thought about a Neutral B that extended her staff's length but I figured that wasn't really unique to Krystal. (I basically have thought about that one for everybody with a sword/spear/staff)

It just fitted for a Nair and decided to go with it.
I don't think the stretch-thing should be applied for more attacks though.

Yeah, the staff extension thing is cool in theory, but I felt I had a hard time forcing it into my moveset. It'll be cool enough that she could "holster" it and grab it quickly and have the staff noticeably animate to fighting size in though moments.

There's also the idea that she could have a special shield like Yoshi and use her staff generated barrier that way.

I mentioned the staff's abilities to create force fields however because it implies an ability to influence the space around it. Could be related to Fox levitating with the quake move and possibly explain an ability to defy gravity too. This could allow Krystal to do things with the staff without handling it. She could throw it out and let it spin in place levitating before running up to it and grabbing it. So yeah, the ideas for staff moves with unusual properties is conceptually possible.

 

[Krayon Kaphonie]

I was going to advertise for Krystal in the rate their chances thread, but it seems like you were way faster than me jahkzheng.

Also, it is really refreshing to see that many people that we usually don't see in this thread are giving her a high chance and seem to want her. You know, since there's only 10 of us max posting frequently in this thread and everything. ^^

Hey! > I would post frequently if I weren't busy moving, college and engaging in regular bible studies. xD I have a lot on my plate as of now I'm trying my best to find time to start drawing Krystal/ Dixie (mostly Krystal) art. xD I might even draw some from photoshop so they'll look official! ^.^/

Edit: I just posted in the rating thread thingy for Krystal and Dixie/ ^w^ I have zero want for anyone else though xD!! Except Daisy.. ._.'

 

[IanTheGamer]

All we can do now is hope, maybe we will get Wolf and Krystal, I mean if FE can get 4 reps, why can't Star Fox get 4?

 

[Princess Toady]

Oh. Well then, allow me to apologize WeirdChillyFever, I honestly thought you were trolling with the smiley you had put on the RTC thread next to 'Krystallization'.

As for the new data that has been uncovered, I always thought that the Ryu theme was for a stage because it didn't seem likely to me that this character in particular would be added (would have preferred Chun-Li too !). It is good that more stages are in the work, because even though we do have the Stage Builder as an option, it will never emulate the beauty of the real stages in HD. And if I'm not a fan of the current roster, I'm even more disappointed by the lack of cool stages.

I didn't really take a look at this Roy / Ryu stuff, so maybe my lack of information clouds my judgement.

All of this moveset discussion for Krystal makes me realize that I never took the time to create one for her. I can visualize it pretty well (same with Dixie), but I'm not artsy enough to draw the moves... And I'm not one for descriptions.

@ Krayon Kaphonie : No biggie ! For several months I had kind of left the website to focus on my studies too ! I know how it feels, College can be such a chore, lol. Thankfully I have a two-week break coming soon, so I'm glad for that (followed by midterms but hey, you have to go through some trials in life, lol).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Oh. Well then, allow me to apologize WeirdChillyFever, I honestly thought you were trolling with the smiley you had put on the RTC thread next to 'Krystallization'.

As for the new data that has been uncovered, I always thought that the Ryu theme was for a stage because it didn't seem likely to me that this character in particular would be added (would have preferred Chun-Li too !). It is good that more stages are in the work, because even though we do have the Stage Builder as an option, it will never emulate the beauty of the real stages in HD. And if I'm not a fan of the current roster, I'm even more disappointed by the lack of cool stages.

I didn't really take a look at this Roy / Ryu stuff, so maybe my lack of information clouds my judgement.

All of this moveset discussion for Krystal makes me realize that I never took the time to create one for her. I can visualize it pretty well (same with Dixie), but I'm not artsy enough to draw the moves... And I'm not one for descriptions.

@ Krayon Kaphonie : No biggie ! For several months I had kind of left the website to focus on my studies too ! I know how it feels, College can be such a chore, lol. Thankfully I have a two-week break coming soon, so I'm glad for that (followed by midterms but hey, you have to go through some trials in life, lol).

It's okay.
I looked back at yeah that seemed like a mean joke, but it was never intended that way.

 

[Wolfheart07]

All we can do now is hope, maybe we will get Wolf and Krystal, I mean if FE can get 4 reps, why can't Star Fox get 4?

Seriously, I don't think that Fire Emblem should get 5 characters. We really don't need another Marth clone. Besides, Starfox reps now at two is very low and first we obviously need Wolf back and then get Krystal. As for Ryu, I'm skeptical of him since that would break the mold of having one third party character from each company. I think Mega Man is more than enough. Why get another Capcom character in the roster. Most likely that leftover data from this update is pretty much data that may not be used and this has happened before in Brawl as well so here is no different.

 

[IanTheGamer]

Seriously, I don't think that Fire Emblem should get 5 characters. We really don't need another Marth clone. Besides, Starfox reps now at two is very low and first we obviously need Wolf back and then get Krystal. As for Ryu, I'm skeptical of him since that would break the mold of having one third party character from each company. I think Mega Man is more than enough. Why get another Capcom character in the roster. Most likely that leftover data from this update is pretty much data that may not be used and this has happened before in Brawl as well so here is no different.

Not to mention, how Roy is irrelevant, even most FE fans dislike him, we don't need three Marths, we already have two Marths, Two Marios, Two Pits, two Links, Two Foxes, Two Zeldas, and two Captain Falcons, don't you think those are enough Clones in one game, DLC or not, besides the only people that even like Roy are people who are Melee Genwunners, given the time, Sakurai probably could have decloned Wolf completely

 

[ArcaneKitsune]

So there's another placeholder type leak from the same guy who datamined roy and ryu. Wonder what you guys' thoughts are on it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...c_data_found_in_the_last_update_more/.compact

Now the question is, is this pre poll or not? Also we could get 7 more stages. But yeah the mario placeholder seems to be for, lucas, roy, ryu, 2 more. If this is pre poll id say it'd be good news.

The dataminer dipped into the stage/character files, in the original he looked into the music files.

Yes, the 7 stages is new. And correct. Its being assumed that 2 more characters are being added to the roy/ryu/lucas mix. (There are 5 placeholder "marios" after mewtwo) Which was unknown in the original sound file leak. But it is not known whether its just gonna be wolf + ballot winner or two more characters, THEN they dip into the ballot.

If you dont quite understand, there's a wordpress linked in the reddit link that explains better, as i cant explain well haha.

With this data i can see the assurance of wolf and another vet (snake?) being planned pre ballot. If this data is pre ballot, which most assume it is.

Just wanted to know if you guys' thoughts on this to see if she has a shot, knowing this data

After reading the news about this from a few days ago and looking at the link you posted I've noticed two things that raised a few flags about the information given. The first thing that I'm sure everyone noticed is that these unused character files were found in the recent update/patch for Smash 3DS. Considering that these unused characters were found on the 3DS version of Smash by someone digging through the new patch data I have hard time seeing this as legit. I mean if these unused characters are imbedded in the new patch for the 3DS version are they also hidden in the Wii U version's recent patch as well? The second thing I noticed is that the dataminer is part of the Homebrew scene for the 3DS. Why is the Homebrew part important because Homebrew is program that allows people to hack games like if you were using a Gameshark, GameGenie, or any other cheating device. Homebrew also allows one to edit games like Project M by giving the user the ability to modify character costumes and other various modifications. Which leads me to possibly believe that he could of just added those character files himself as well as the music as way of stirring up another controversial s@$# storm like all those other previous character leaks did while the new Smash was still in development.

 

[Princess Toady]

Well, the thing is the 3DS and the Wii U both have 'different games'. You can't say that the leak is wrong because the same files weren't found in both versions, if it's an oversight, it's likely the same data was erased from the Wii U version.

 

[ArcaneKitsune]

Well, the thing is the 3DS and the Wii U both have 'different games'. You can't say that the leak is wrong because the same files weren't found in both versions, if it's an oversight, it's likely the same data was erased from the Wii U version.

I never said they were in both versions. I questioned whether or not they are in the Wii U version considering the unused character data was only found in the 3DS version.

 

[jahkzheng]

After reading the news about this from a few days ago and looking at the link you posted I've noticed two things that raised a few flags about the information given. The first thing that I'm sure everyone noticed is that these unused character files were found in the recent update/patch for Smash 3DS. Considering that these unused characters were found on the 3DS version of Smash by someone digging through the new patch data I have hard time seeing this as legit. I mean if these unused characters are imbedded in the new patch for the 3DS version are they also hidden in the Wii U version's recent patch as well? The second thing I noticed is that the dataminer is part of the Homebrew scene for the 3DS. Why is the Homebrew part important because Homebrew is program that allows people to hack games like if you were using a Gameshark, GameGenie, or any other cheating device. Homebrew also allows one to edit games like Project M by giving the user the ability to modify character costumes and other various modifications. Which leads me to possibly believe that he could of just added those character files himself as well as the music as way of stirring up another controversial s@$# storm like all those other previous character leaks did while the new Smash was still in development.

The hidden patch file information has apparently been confirmed by several independent and "reputable" sources. I say "reputable" because they are hackers, heh, but also because many of these guys are people responsible for discovering other game information before it was confirmed. For instance, I've heard that one of the sources for this latest info data mined Hyrule Warriors and discovered Tingle data before he was revealed officially. There's other examples too. Plus, from having done some Homebrew stuff in brawl I can say those files look legit, but it's easy enough to make them appear that way. Admittedly, all this info on these hackers is second hand, but I'm inclined to believe that this data really is there. What it actually means is a whole other thing. There is a slight possibility that this stuff was left there to lead hackers off the scent of actual data, but it's doubtful they'd go to such lengths.

Personally, I'm still skeptical about the implications, but I've already accepted that this data is more than likely real.

 

[IanTheGamer]

The hidden patch file information has apparently been confirmed by several independent and "reputable" sources. I say "reputable" because they are hackers, heh, but also because many of these guys are people responsible for discovering other game information before it was confirmed. For instance, I've heard that one of the sources for this latest info data mined Hyrule Warriors and discovered Tingle data before he was revealed officially. There's other examples too. Plus, from having done some Homebrew stuff in brawl I can say those files look legit, but it's easy enough to make them appear that way. Admittedly, all this info on these hackers is second hand, but I'm inclined to believe that this data really is there. What it actually means is a whole other thing. There is a slight possibility that this stuff was left there to lead hackers off the scent of actual data, but it's doubtful they'd go to such lengths.

Personally, I'm still skeptical about the implications, but I've already accepted that this data is more than likely real.

Unfortunately, Sakurai listened to the Melee Genwunners

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Unfortunately, Sakurai listened to the Melee Genwunners

Technically Gen two-ers.