Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Vali]

Well said Fawriel (especially on the Mii's).

Really hope Olimar is gonna show up, Pikmin/2 is a fantastic game and deserves some rep for when Pikmin 3 comes out since if they don't make a Pikmin 3 i'll be campaigning outside Nintendo HQ until they do make one .

"This is the main reason why Bowser Jr, Black Knight from FE9, young link windwaker form, midna, diddy kong, king K pool, Samuri Goroh, and Poo won't be in it."

Zeela is what we call a prediction in which you mentioned that Young Link in Windwaker form, Diddy Kong and King K. Rool which are some of the most likely characters to be included in the next Smash Bros. won't be in it. It's not that you're wrong, you can't be proven wrong entirely until Brawl actually comes out. It's just that the chances of you being correct about those characters not being in it are so so miniscule it could be approximated to 0. Meaning pretty much you're wrong.

Ok taking an average of the GameFAQs and SWF "Rate their chances" scores for each of the characters, which is a pretty fair representation of 2 smash communities, you get for each character that was rated:

Diddy Kong - 0.8538, Midna - 0.5810, Bowser Jr. 0.5678, Samurai Goroh - 0.5492, King K Rool - 0.5493, The Black Knight 0.3005

Since it seems that Poo nor WW Link were rated (unsure if Celda = WW Link) but since WW Link is practically a given as replacement for Young Link he can get a fair 0.9000 and Poo a fair 0.6500. Considering that most of the votes would be biased towards popularity, especially in the cases of ignorance where people wouldn't know how suitable a player would be through lack of experience, these are pretty unaccurate anyway. If we reserve these (the chance of them NOT getting in) then we get figures as follows.

0.1462 DK, 0.4190 M, 0.4322 BJr., 0.4518 SG, 0.4517 KKR, 0.6995 BK, 0.1000 WWL, 0.3500 P

Multiplying these together (for each probability occuring) gives you roughly a 0.00013 chance of all those characters being omitted from Brawl based on the predictions. So for ever 100,000 Brawl rosters, those characters being omitted would occur 13 times. Now since I think some of the scores given are rediculously low, Diddy should be at least 0.95 since there is going to be another rep of the DK franchise added to Brawl and he's first in line and Midna (like her or hate her) is pretty much 0.85+ chance of getting in which would soar your prediction that she and Diddy wouldn't get in even lower.

That was a pretty good waste of 10 minutes.

 

[Wiseguy]

Wow you seem so sure about your own "predictions" you even capitalized them to emphazie how right you are! I'm impressed!

Now how am I wrong when I haven't even made any predictions? I only proposed a reason for why some of these charaters won't be in it, and you so surely by your own standard know for a fact that they will be? No one really knows for certian who will be in it or not, for all you know, Godzilla could even be in it, and how would you know that that won't happen for certian?

logic and reason? I doubt you even understood what I was talking about. Just becuase you wish so much for certian people to be in the game doesn't mean that will actaully happen, plus I have yet to give a complete definition of who will be in it or not, and somehow you think that's wrong.

to techinically, YOU ARE WRONG because I'm not, since I have nothing to be wrong with, because I'm only stating reasons for pausible predictions. How can you have a wrong prediction anyways? You may predict WRONGLY but the prediction is always just a prediction, can't be wrong with that.

great, now I'm using caps, must be a disease.

Zeela, I apologize. Just because I disagree with you is no reason to come off insulting or condosending. Technically, I can't say definitively that you are wrong (not for a few hours anyway... www.smashbros.com) because all guesses are just speculation.

However, I still disagree with your assesment about no minor characters from popular series returning. Lugi, Jiggs, Zelda/Sheik, Pichu, etc. are all minor characters. Also, Diddy has stared in his own series (Diddy Kong Racing for N64 and DS) so he doesn't qualify as a minor character even if you are correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon_Yellow
Since I don't want to waste your time, here's the synopsis: The hero ( main name: Ash ) gets a Pikachu as a starter Pokemon that stays outside the Pokeball and can be talked to to see how much it likes the player. It refuses to evolve. And Team Rocket is there, too. Basically, it follows the anime a lot.

Also, Sakurai may have said that no anime characters will be in... BUT, I'm absolutely certain that the development in anime for characters like Pokemon contributes to their image as a whole... if the anime didn't matter, Pikachu wouldn't be the mascot, for he wasn't that popular before. If Jigglypuff hadn't had a role in the anime as a sort of running gag, she probably wouldn't be as popular and thus available in all main games to date. Pichu is derived from Pikachu. Mewtwo is the only character so far who was in for reasons besides popularity gained through the anime, and even for him, starring in the first movie as the villain was a major factor.
Proof? One of Pikachu's costumes makes him don Ash Ketchum's cap.

Point is, Pokemon are still living beings, they're somewhat intelligent, they have a voice, and so on. Wiis have editable faces. They are just fleeting images. They have a place in games, but they do not have the place of a great hero, a fearsome villain, or simply a big star.

That's the last time I try and argue with someone on the Pokemon series. Apparantly, you are right: Pikachu is sort of a character in his (?) own right and the anime' does factor into the Pokemon's role in Smash. Am I at least right that Pichu is generic?

While the Miis (NOT WIIS DANG IT!) are certainly different from any other character ever to appear in Smash in that they are customizable, I still think they have a surprisingly high amount of personality for an avitar. Check out www.miiplaza.net and see some of the awesome Miis created by gamers.

As the new mascot for Nintendo's new emphasis on casual gamers, I think Mii has an excellent shot. Sure, Smash appeals more to hard core gamers - but many Nintendo fans still love Wii Sports and Miis inclusion may convince some casual gamers to pick up Smash. Its a win-win.

Well said Fawriel (especially on the Mii's).

Really hope Olimar is gonna show up, Pikmin/2 is a fantastic game and deserves some rep for when Pikmin 3 comes out since if they don't make a Pikmin 3 i'll be campaigning outside Nintendo HQ until they do make one .

Pikmin fans unite!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=C2m3NgZk7eE

Maybe if several thousand of us all dressed in costumes like these guys and stormed Nintendo HQ, we could get Miamoto's attention.

 

[Vali]

Pikmin fans unite!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=C2m3NgZk7eE

Maybe if several thousand of us all dressed in costumes like these guys and stormed Nintendo HQ, we could get Miamoto's attention.

Or just build a giant Olimar robot to individually hurl us at the building. Slightly more suicidal than a good plan should be, but it'd be great to grab his attention nevertheless. Just make sure no-one comes as the white pikmin, they're down right creepy.

Oh man with that advert how did it not break 20 million?

 

[Wiseguy]

Or just build a giant Olimar robot to individually hurl us at the building. Slightly more suicidal than a good plan should be, but it'd be great to grab his attention nevertheless. Just make sure no-one comes as the white pikmin, they're down right creepy.

Oh man with that advert how did it not break 20 million?

Pikmin costumes.... giant Olimar robot.... sounds like a winning strategy to me. It can't fail.

We're down to mere minutes before the site update! Am I the only one clicking refresh every ten seconds?

 

[Classic-Black]

you may be refreshing for an extra 12 hours then...

 

[Wiseguy]

you may be refreshing for an extra 12 hours then...

Come again?

 

[Classic-Black]

apparently, the actual update may not happen until 12 noon, in japan. That of course means that the update will be delayed 12 hours elsewhere as well.

Here's the topic from where most of this info came from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=104062

 

[Vali]

Come again?

Supposedly there was a 12 hour delay. Maybe, we don't really know since it was in Japanese. I can actually see Pikmin 3 on Wii being really fun, like actually throwing the pikmin yourself maybe and it'd be a pleasent touch to have the whistle sound coming from the Wii-mote. I can also envision a massive amount of ******* that take "throw" the Wii-mote a little too literally.

 

[Wiseguy]

Wow. That really sucks. Another 12 hours... Thanks for the heads up Classic Black.

I completly agree with Pikmin 3 on the Wii. I'd also be interested to see how Nintendo would bring the series to the DS...

 

[Vali]

I don't know how well it'd work on DS. While im sure Nintendo would be fully capable of bringing the franchise to the DS and still make a good game, I think some of the magic would be lost along the way. I mean, both Pikmins are strikingly beautiful and have incredible attention to detail, something which the DS wouldn't be able to recreate. Just think that part of it's appeal is that it's actually surprisingly life-like and immersive. Besides some of those boss battles require some pretty controlled *cough*frantic*cough* attack patterns and without both the C and analogue stick again I think it just wouldn't recreate the same feel. That said, despite lack of C-stick on Wii, non-gimmicky options could be channeled through to the motion sensors to provide some relief of functions for the buttons. Would still buy the DS version though .

 

[Wiseguy]

I don't know how well it'd work on DS. While im sure Nintendo would be fully capable of bringing the franchise to the DS and still make a good game, I think some of the magic would be lost along the way. I mean, both Pikmins are strikingly beautiful and have incredible attention to detail, something which the DS wouldn't be able to recreate. Just think that part of it's appeal is that it's actually surprisingly life-like and immersive. Besides some of those boss battles require some pretty controlled *cough*frantic*cough* attack patterns and without both the C and analogue stick again I think it just wouldn't recreate the same feel. That said, despite lack of C-stick on Wii, non-gimmicky options could be channeled through to the motion sensors to provide some relief of functions for the buttons. Would still buy the DS version though .

Pikmin on the DS would be a completly different animal than the console games. While Pikmin has always been a balance between an action-advanture and an RTS, Pikmin DS would likely focus more heavily on the RTS side (by tossing pikmin with a tap of the touch screen and separating your troops by circling them with the stylus). Basically, more like the upcoming Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings and Heroes of Mana. At least that's the way I see it. But a full fledged sequel on Wii would also rock all kinds of awesome.

In other news, Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is coming this August!

http://thewiire.com/news/743/1/Nintendo_Reveals_Release_Dates_Metroid_in_August

This day is just getting better by the minute! If only Sakurai would stop toying with us and update the site already.

 

[Vali]

Hm more a fan of the action-adventure, RTS is probably my least played genre of all of the serious ones (ie. not flight simulators). Can definitely see the touch screen helping with pikmin selection though, the whistle while fun is annoying when trying to pick a small group.

I was actually semi-disappointed at the Prime news, I had in my mind that it was slated for a mid-June release (I can remember something about that somewhere) and mid-August is a bit less awesome. But hey, it could be as bad as '08.

Really really hope it isn't as much as a 12 hour delay, i've been getting the page updates at about 4pm so...ack that's 4am :/ Europe is always the one that gets screwed over.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Urm, 17 pages is alot to read, but since I see you fellows are still talking about the inclusion of Miis... has anyone thought that perhaps your Miis will replace the fighting polygons of the past two games? I would put money on it. Miis as playable characters though, I'm not so sure...

 

[Deleted member]

Hm more a fan of the action-adventure, RTS is probably my least played genre of all of the serious ones (ie. not flight simulators). Can definitely see the touch screen helping with pikmin selection though, the whistle while fun is annoying when trying to pick a small group.

I was actually semi-disappointed at the Prime news, I had in my mind that it was slated for a mid-June release (I can remember something about that somewhere) and mid-August is a bit less awesome. But hey, it could be as bad as '08.

Really really hope it isn't as much as a 12 hour delay, i've been getting the page updates at about 4pm so...ack that's 4am :/ Europe is always the one that gets screwed over.

Unfortunately true... Didn't America like bomb Japan? Stupid Japanese, it was not us, it was the Yanks!

 

[Classic-Black]

Urm, 17 pages is alot to read, but since I see you fellows are still talking about the inclusion of Miis... has anyone thought that perhaps your Miis will replace the fighting polygons of the past two games? I would put money on it. Miis as playable characters though, I'm not so sure...

I actually like this Idea, alot. While I could see Miis as a playable character, it would be link Game & Watch (a WTF char) without the retro

 

[Vali]

Well, at least we get Mario Strikers Charged first. It's not like Super Paper Mario (my 2nd highest anticipated Wii game) isn't going to turn up in any UK stores soon...wait...no, it's still TB<insert profanity>A for us :/

 

[NES n00b]

Unfortunately true... Didn't America like bomb Japan? Stupid Japanese, it was not us, it was the Yanks!

America is to important of a gaming market to ignore. Think on the bright side; at least you are not in Europe.

*reads that Smash Daddy is in England*

Well at least you all will get a more balanced gmae with less glitches. >.> <.< *runs yelling* Please keep Marth!

 

[Wiseguy]

Urm, 17 pages is alot to read, but since I see you fellows are still talking about the inclusion of Miis... has anyone thought that perhaps your Miis will replace the fighting polygons of the past two games? I would put money on it. Miis as playable characters though, I'm not so sure...

Why not have both? Miis can be the new polygons in the single player mode as well as a playable character. They would have to design at least a primitive moveset for the character anyway, so why not go all the way?

I see this was your first post. Welcome to Smashboards. Any other thoughts about my character predictions?

 

[Johnknight1]

Why not have both? Miis can be the new polygons in the single player mode as well as a playable character. They would have to design at least a primitive moveset for the character anyway, so why not go all the way?

I see this was your first post. Welcome to Smashboards. Any other thoughts about my character predictions?

As long as you can't customize your Mii's attacks, height, and wieght, Idc if they make it or not. Hey Wiseguy, you gonna update this thread after the news/trailer, or both=? I'd like to yell at you some more for picking Sora for Brawl!

 

[Wiseguy]

As long as you can't customize your Mii's attacks, height, and wieght, Idc if they make it or not. Hey Wiseguy, you gonna update this thread after the news/trailer, or both=? I'd like to yell at you some more for picking Sora for Brawl!

I'll definitly update my thread tommorow. Expect to see me brag about all my correct predictions and make excuses for why I didn't predict some of the newcomers.

That punk Sakurai had better update his site soon. In my corner of the world, its past 1:00 am, and some of us have to sleep. Crazy Japanese. Why can't they live in the western hemisphere like normal people?

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^^ Sweet Wiseeguy, I'm sure we'll have another "intelligent" debate. Wait I'm in it, so it's not going to be too intelligent! I'm sure we'll both be right in terms and I noticed you removed your third party characters and a few others (Olimar=?). Also, expect me to sayy "HA in yo face n00b" a lot tomorrow (minus the n00b part ).

He better, in the next 30 minutes, or 2 1/2 hours, or sadly 9 1/2hours. Ya, let's go with 30 minutes or 2 1/2 hours=sweet! No matter who we see, I'm gonna be excited and hopefully I won't crap my pants like wehn MetaKnight, Pit, Zamus, Wario, and Snake were announced!

 

[Wiseguy]

Whoopie! I just saw the update. It's official: the dude who wrote the music for the Everyone Votes channel, Toshiyuki Sudo, is on the music staff! What a relief. And a detailed description of Battlefield! SHOCKER! That alone was worth the all the sleepness nights in anticipation for this update.

Dudes! It says the website will be updated DAILY! Only 24 hours until the next update! What mysteries will be revealed by Sakurai in the days to come?!

Day 2: "Item: This is a Bob-bomb. Its explodes!"

Day 3: "Attacks: This is Mario's fireball attack. He shoots a fire ball at his enemies and stuff. Wheeee!"

Day 4: "Characters: Pikachu! Betcha didn't see that one coming!"

Day 5: "Here's a list of our Janitoral staff at the development studio:

Stacy Won is professional window cleaner who's past work includes washing windows.

Steve Hu is a janitor who's past work includes picking up dog crap at the park.

John Zin mops the floors and...."

Day 4: "No new information today. But here are some pictures of me walking my dog at the beach...."

Day 5: "Stage: Battlefield, Part 2 - Yep. It's a stage with four platforms. What will I think of next?"

Day 6: "Brawl release date: March 2012. Ish."

Day 7: "I'm insane."

Who else besides me is going to spend the next 24 hours clicking refresh over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over andover and over?!?!?!

 

[Deleted member]

Sure. I want to see those pictures of Sakurai walking his wife on the beach!

 

[demondude]

i predict that tomorrow you will die of chronic toilet problems and you will die a very painful and humiliating death jigglypuff hates you so when you go to heaven and jigglypuff dies you had better watch out


HES GONNA GET YA

 

[Wiseguy]

Sure. I want to see those pictures of Sakurai walking his wife on the beach!

Will the shockiong revelations never cease! Sakurai walks his dog AND his wife at the beach!

I hope your happy Smash Daddy. It was your lack of faith that prevented Sakurai from revealing any new characters.

Edit: Hey Demon Dude, PIES SUCK! http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=104187

 

[Vali]

I would for the Janitorial staff pictures, but that ain't until day 5.

Er Wiseguy I think he was implying Dog = Wife.

 

[Wiseguy]

Er Wiseguy I think he was implying Dog = Wife.

Oh. That makes sense, I guess. What a long night....

Great job, Smash Daddy. Because you insulted the man's wife, we'll be LUCKY if he gives us a list of the janitorial staff.

 

[Vali]

we'll be LUCKY if he gives us a list of the janitorial staff.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Deleted member]

That information was leaked months ago. Maintenance, Nacho Senorita and Electrics John Smith. Apparently they cut the janitorial team in half because of costs.

 

[Johnknight1]

So I wasn' the only one who heard about that Smash Daddy. Also note that Jason Byron was cut from the janitorial staff, because he kept recommending Tingle should be in the game, and he drove Sakurai crazy. Needless to say, that is why Sakurai onliy gave us the musicians, and musical score.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes. He would have also given us the names of the cafeteria staff but they all died.

 

[Lawk]

Cool list. I'm hoping for as much 3rd party characters as possible because I really want the Wii to do well.

Also, I'm a Sega fanboy. SAAYYYGAAAAH!

 

[Wiseguy]

Cool list. I'm hoping for as much 3rd party characters as possible because I really want the Wii to do well.

Also, I'm a Sega fanboy. SAAYYYGAAAAH!

Thank you. Good to see someone agrees with me on how much of an asset third party characters could be. Let's hope Sakurai (and his crack team of janitors) agree. Check out the previous page for the meaning behind that ultra-lame inside joke.

Ah, a Sega fanboy. One of the last of a dying breed. Could you explain to me what the bid deal is about Nights for the Wii?

 

[Fawriel]

Look it up on Youtube, Wiseguy. It's beautiful. I've never played it and was somewhat skeptical before, but seriously, it's awesome.

( The full name of the game is Nights into Dreams, "nights" might not give very helpful results. )

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't that NiGHTS?

 

[Wiseguy]

Look it up on Youtube, Wisey. It's beautiful. I've never played it and was somewhat skeptical before, but seriously, it's awesome.

( The full name of the game is Nights into Dreams, "nights" might not give very helpful results. )

"Wisey"? Who's that? There's no Wisey here. I think you posted on the wrong thread by accident.

 

[Vali]

This latest wave of "Omg, Sakurai gave us composers so X character will be in Brawl!" or "X character didn't have a composer so he won't be in" is significantly increasing my urge to stab people.

I'm afraid im gonna have to go against you guys on the "More 3rd party is better". While yes there are a lot of nice 3rd parties that could use some representation of their franchise I'm just a bit retro in my feelings that Super Smash Bros. should be kept as 1st party as possible. I'm quite all for having 2-3 3rd party characters included to rep their franchise as long as we see decent 3rd party Wii(/DS) releases of that franchise. Do Konami plan to bring another Metal Gear game to Wii? They **** well better.

Unfortunately I'm 100% correct in saying that most decent Nintendo games are 1st party. I know it's not all 1st party that are decent, you get the occasional rubbish Nintendo game or an absolute gem of game from a 3rd party developer, but it stands to reason that their roster should take from the majority of 1st party games that should get some rep. There's some very popular 3rd party choices for Brawl and some more obscure fanbase hits that people want to get in and I think it's pretty rediculous to say stuff like "X character would be awesome for Brawl!" because as I think Game + Watch proved you could have an awesome moveset for just about anyone and still be fun to play.

I think when you start moving into the realm of about 5 or 6 you start taking up spots that could be filled with 1st party A+ choice Nintendo characters, especially now with the roster increased in size., You could have so many hero + villain combinations with an increased balance in franchises like Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong etc. which are Nintendo's main money makers and some of the more obscure franchises like Pit (who could after Brawl make a bigtime comback with a Brawl-founded fanbase).

I guess you could argue retro characters aren't particularly needed since they only rep dead franchises but Nintendo seems to not disregard the past (which is a good thing imo) and instead represent them in some way. I wouldn't mind if the more retro characters got axed in favour of an increase in decent 3rd party characters but "as many as possible" is too many . There are some **** fine choices for 3rd party (and some equally terrible ones) i know, but at the end of the day they're most likely bumping out an equally awesome 1st party choice. Would you prefer a 3rd party character like Sora over Skull Kid or Captain Olimar? Oh and if there's going to be a Namco representative please for the love of god not Pacman. Not Pacman .

 

[NES n00b]

Thank you. Good to see someone agrees with me on how much of an asset third party characters could be. Let's hope Sakurai (and his crack team of janitors) agree. Check out the previous page for the meaning behind that ultra-lame inside joke.

Ah, a Sega fanboy. One of the last of a dying breed. Could you explain to me what the bid deal is about Nights for the Wii?

WTF? A SEGA fanboy that does not praise that game every second of the day? o.0
It is not possible; I am sure of it!!!!!

Kidding aside, there were several reasons why this game was praised on the SEGA Saturn (lol at SEGA Saturn).

1. The game looked incredible for the day with colorful worlds to fly in (or explore in but who used the kids to explore anyways).

2. This game introduced one of the first analog controlled game alongside the Nintendo 64 games which gave better control to the game and influenced the industry (obviously).

3. In addition, this game was not like anyother game. It was a novel back in the day beccause nobody would have ever thought to make a game based around flying and collecting orbs while doing tricks. Really, who could think of this concept?

4. Maybe the most important reason of all. Are you ready????

The SEGA Saturn had very little good games. NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon were the only games to tide Saturn console owners over. Maybe there were others but these were the most signifigant.

Edit for post above me: Actually there was alot of good third party games ......... before the N64 era. That is when the Nintendo got the bad rep. for bad third party support and rightfully so compared to the Playstation consoles.

I still agree that the characters should stay mostly 1st party. For third parties, I think they should be characters that are thought of when thinking Nintendo games. (Megaman, Simon Belmont, Chrono, etc.)

 

[Fawriel]

"Wisey"? Who's that? There's no Wisey here. I think you posted on the wrong thread by accident.

What are you talking about? There's no Wisey in my post. >_> <_<

 

[Wiseguy]

This latest wave of "Omg, Sakurai gave us composers so X character will be in Brawl!" or "X character didn't have a composer so he won't be in" is significantly increasing my urge to stab people.

Hey, after an entire night of sitting by the computer clicking refresh everyone is desperate for something, ANYTHING to give some clue as to what new characters will be included.

And don't tell me that you don't see Toshiyuki Sudo (the Everyone Votes channel guy) as conclusive proof that Mii is in Brawl.

I'm afraid im gonna have to go against you guys on the "More 3rd party is better". While yes there are a lot of nice 3rd parties that could use some representation of their franchise I'm just a bit retro in my feelings that Super Smash Bros. should be kept as 1st party as possible. I'm quite all for having 2-3 3rd party characters included to rep their franchise as long as we see decent 3rd party Wii(/DS) releases of that franchise. Do Konami plan to bring another Metal Gear game to Wii? They **** well better.

No word on a Metal Gear Wii game yet (tragically...) and Metal Gear Solid 4 is supposed to be the final chapter in the series. That kinda ruins your whole argument right there, huh?

Unfortunately I'm 100% correct in saying that most decent Nintendo games are 1st party. I know it's not all 1st party that are decent, you get the occasional rubbish Nintendo game or an absolute gem of game from a 3rd party developer, but it stands to reason that their roster should take from the majority of 1st party games that should get some rep. There's some very popular 3rd party choices for Brawl and some more obscure fanbase hits that people want to get in and I think it's pretty rediculous to say stuff like "X character would be awesome for Brawl!" because as I think Game + Watch proved you could have an awesome moveset for just about anyone and still be fun to play.

Metroid Prime, Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, Advance Wars, Battaleon Wars and Super Smash Bros Melee all disagree with your assessment. All these Nintendo published games were made by Retro Studios, Intelligent Systems, etc.

I think when you start moving into the realm of about 5 or 6 you start taking up spots that could be filled with 1st party A+ choice Nintendo characters, especially now with the roster increased in size., You could have so many hero + villain combinations with an increased balance in franchises like Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong etc. which are Nintendo's main money makers and some of the more obscure franchises like Pit (who could after Brawl make a bigtime comback with a Brawl-founded fanbase).

That is a possibility. But as long as the third party character is in the same leage as Solid Snake and all the major Nintendo franchises are represented (as I think they are on my list) I'm good with it.

I guess you could argue retro characters aren't particularly needed since they only rep dead franchises but Nintendo seems to not disregard the past (which is a good thing imo) and instead represent them in some way. I wouldn't mind if the more retro characters got axed in favour of an increase in decent 3rd party characters but "as many as possible" is too many . There are some **** fine choices for 3rd party (and some equally terrible ones) i know, but at the end of the day they're most likely bumping out an equally awesome 1st party choice. Would you prefer a 3rd party character like Sora over Skull Kid or Captain Olimar? Oh and if there's going to be a Namco representative please for the love of god not Pacman. Not Pacman .

Two or three retro characters are good candidates for a single guest appearance, but never at the expense of contenporary Nintendo characters - in my view.

Sora over Captian Olimar?! Not on your life! Of course, in fairness, I might feel differently if I were a Kingdom Hearts fan (there are quite a few of them out there, I here). But yeah, if the 3rd party character is a worthy addition (ie: Solid Snake, Simon Belmont, Sonic and arguably Sora) then I say its worth it - as long as we're talking about an obscure Nintendo character and not a representative of a major franchise (Mario, Link, DK and most of all: Olimar

The way I see it, Smash Bros is the only game where Zelda fanatics, Metriod entusists, Star Fox veterans, Pokemon freaks, F-zero junkies, Fire Emblem tacticians and card carrying memebers of the Mario fan club can join in comradery and enjoy a truly great game. I say that fans of Metal Gear and Kingdom Hearts should have a chance to share that.

WTF? A SEGA fanboy that does not praise that game every second of the day? o.0
It is not possible; I am sure of it!!!!!

Kidding aside, there were several reasons why this game was praised on the SEGA Saturn (lol at SEGA Saturn).

1. The game looked incredible for the day with colorful worlds to fly in (or explore in but who used the kids to explore anyways).

2. This game introduced one of the first analog controlled game alongside the Nintendo 64 games which gave better control to the game and influenced the industry (obviously).

3. In addition, this game was not like anyother game. It was a novel back in the day beccause nobody would have ever thought to make a game based around flying and collecting orbs while doing tricks. Really, who could think of this concept?

4. Maybe the most important reason of all. Are you ready????

The SEGA Saturn had very little good games. NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon were the only games to tide Saturn console owners over. Maybe there were others but these were the most signifigant.

Edit for post above me: Actually there was alot of good third party games ......... before the N64 era. That is when the Nintendo got the bad rep. for bad third party support and rightfully so compared to the Playstation consoles.

I still agree that the characters should stay mostly 1st party. For third parties, I think they should be characters that are thought of when thinking Nintendo games. (Megaman, Simon Belmont, Chrono, etc.)

I see. So that's why everyone so excited about the sequel to NiGHTS. I'll have to keep an eye on it and check it out if its reviews are good...