firexemblemxpryde
Smash Lord
Hello, fellow Marth players.
It is on a day like today, when I should be studying for my 3 tests tomorrow, that I often wonder what a Marth player should be doing to practice at home. A lot of people will shrug you off, and tell you that as long as you have the basic technical down, Marth is all about mindgames so you cannot really practice at home.
BUT IS THIS TRUE?
Surely practicing at home doesn't limit you to a character like Fox/Falco/Peach/Yoshi? After all, it's not like Marth can go into training mode, pick PPC or Onett and practice their infinites or select the opponent as jigglypuff to practice uthrow-uair. I'm TIRED of trying to find decent threads in the Marth forums, I'm TIRED of asking people better than me how I can get better, I'm TIRED of having to change the font of crap to keep you guys entertained.
It follows logically that I pose the fundamental question:
What, if anything, do (pro) Marth players do to practice at home?!!11one!?
I hope that each of you will contribute by leaving ideas that a Marth player might want to practice and perfect so as to assist the integration and development of "mindgames". As well, a (somewhat) detailed explanation of what needs to be done to practice this "technique" would be helpful. Both challenging and beginner-level practice techniques are appreciated. Eventually, I hope that players will be able to see this thread, find a technique, and learn to get it down via the instructions given.
I'll start us off.
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Jump Cancelling Grabs
Often you will hear that a Marth must JC his grabs or get pwned wtf bbq. When I was trying to make JCing grabs a second nature, I went into training mode, chose my opponent as Mewtwo and the stage FD. I started fthrow-chainthrowing the mewtwo across the stage until about 150%. I found that this worked quite well and in a while, I was JCing without even thinking about it.
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Retreating SH Double Fairs
This is really useful against aggressive space animals. I would suggest choosing a large stage like FD or DL, setting the game type to "time" and the time limit to "0" or infinity. This is most easily (and apparently efficiently) done with cstick. The idea is to shorthop backwards while double-fairing, thus giving you range -and- spacing.
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Wall/Edge/Ledge Teching
In "an endless KO fest" (Time gametype, "None" time limit), choose a slow character like Peach or Ganon lvl1 as your opponent. Set items to "High" with Motion Sensor Bombs as the only item selected. Choose FD as the stage, and as you get more comfortable, other stages.
Once the match starts, pick up a motion sensor bomb, run off the stage and as you do so, chuck the MSB at the edge of the stage. This will turn you around. As you fall, Up+B, press L/R around 20 frames before making contact with the bomb (this is harder with Marth) and you will tech. Didn't get it the first time? Well, that's why we're practicing it. Get another MSB and do it again.
Another thing which is nice to know - Marth isn't supposed to walltech jump (done by holding up after wallteching). In the even that you DO, though, by accident, contrary to popular belief, YOU ARE NOT DEAD. If you are fast enough, you can bair immediately to stop your momentum and fall and recover. Another trixxy thing is to let Marth finish his jumping motion, and as he starts falling, fwd+b towards the stage, and angle your up+b. This actually works, and some people might assume you're dead and not edgehog you. Ideally, Marth is supposed to walltech (no jump), fast fall, and try for a sweetspot.
Something that I found out that I haven't seen used with Marth is similar to one of Fox/Falco's recovery strats. If Marth hasn't used his initial fwd+b, he can use it IMMEDIATELY after the walltech to grab the edge while still in invincibility frames. Imagine that!
The reason you chose ganon/peach is because they walk slowly at lvl1. The reason you chose "endless KO fest" instead of training mode is because you cannot use the C-stick to ASDI in training mode.
__________________________________________________
"Spacing"
In layman's terms, spacing is what a character does to create the proper amount of distance between itself and its enemy, such that he can land hits, but is out-of-range from retaliatory attacks. In marth's case, this is very crucial. Marth makes use of his disjointed hitbox (see a definition under Melee Discussion forum) usually keeping at a tipper range.
But how to practice it at home? It's quite hard, but some ideas are:
IASA Knowledge
To improve capability of general combos, it is important that the player knows when a move has officially ended and a succeeding move may be inputted. "Interruptable As Soon As" knowledge is important. One can get a better feel for when a move is ending by immediately shielding after the move is finished. Go to any stage, perform a ground attack (including grab, sidestep dodge, etc) , and hold L during the move. As soon as the move finishes, Marth will shield. Now you know that as soon as Marth can shield, Marth can do other crap. Knowledge of this timing is important to be "fast".
I've not yet figured out a way for figure out when air attacks are initially completed. Spamming the "A" button would work in result in a nair, but I don't think that's accurate enough, unless you're Silentwolf and can hit the A button on every frame.
__________________________________________________
Ledge Cancels
This technique is usually used for flashier purposes, but I have seen it used strategically during matches as well. The gist of it is this: Marth does an aerial attack, lands on the corner of a platform/edge, and he slides off immediately, "cancelling" the lag and animation of the previous move. Another aerial can be executed immediately, and the result is a 2-move motion which acts faster than an Lcancel.
I found this quite easy to practice in Mushroom Kingdom II. You'll notice immediately that there are 2 gaps in the middle of the stage. There are 2 areas of higher ground. Just before each higher ground ends and reaches the gap, there is an orange weed a short distance away from the edge (about half a Marth). If Marth does an aerial and his feet land in between the edge and the weed, the move will cancel. This provides a visual for what you should be aiming to hit when ledge cancelling. Another nice thing about this stage is that if you DO miss the ground completely, there is often a bridge of some sort that catches you by the waterfall and saves you from the abyss. Basically, the weed and each edge provide a visual goal for where you should be aiming to hit your primary move. Later, you won't be needing the weed and you'll be able to do it more consistently in other stages. I suggest picking Ness as your opponent because he's an idiot and kills himself all the time here, without bothering you.
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Up+B Out of Shield
Lately, this has been getting lots of attention. It's pretty useful when laggy moves hit your shield, when you're feeling shield pressure, or just plain old mindgames.
How to learn/practice it: Choose Corneria and a slow lvl1 CPU character on endless melee. Go over to the right part of the stage, and down near the rear of the ship. On this lower level, you'll notice the colour (yes, colour, I'm canadian) changes where the gray (yet again) thing that spurts fire is. Stand there, hold shield, and jump-cancel the shield into an up+b. Now, you're probably saying "wtf you made me come to corneria to do that?". No, guys, I don't have an obsession with Corneria. Up+B onto the wing of the ship, the edge, and your up+b animation will finish much faster. Shield->up+b, grab the edge, fastfall back down, repeat. Wayyy more efficient, that edge is nice.
__________________________________________________
Make sense? What I want is an accumulation of practice tips/ strategies for reference... so that when we're bored and we don't want to flatland infinite Peach any longer with Fox, we turn to Marth and practice.
=] Thanks in advance for your input!
It is on a day like today, when I should be studying for my 3 tests tomorrow, that I often wonder what a Marth player should be doing to practice at home. A lot of people will shrug you off, and tell you that as long as you have the basic technical down, Marth is all about mindgames so you cannot really practice at home.
BUT IS THIS TRUE?
Surely practicing at home doesn't limit you to a character like Fox/Falco/Peach/Yoshi? After all, it's not like Marth can go into training mode, pick PPC or Onett and practice their infinites or select the opponent as jigglypuff to practice uthrow-uair. I'm TIRED of trying to find decent threads in the Marth forums, I'm TIRED of asking people better than me how I can get better, I'm TIRED of having to change the font of crap to keep you guys entertained.
It follows logically that I pose the fundamental question:
What, if anything, do (pro) Marth players do to practice at home?!!11one!?
I hope that each of you will contribute by leaving ideas that a Marth player might want to practice and perfect so as to assist the integration and development of "mindgames". As well, a (somewhat) detailed explanation of what needs to be done to practice this "technique" would be helpful. Both challenging and beginner-level practice techniques are appreciated. Eventually, I hope that players will be able to see this thread, find a technique, and learn to get it down via the instructions given.
I'll start us off.
__________________________________________________
Jump Cancelling Grabs
Often you will hear that a Marth must JC his grabs or get pwned wtf bbq. When I was trying to make JCing grabs a second nature, I went into training mode, chose my opponent as Mewtwo and the stage FD. I started fthrow-chainthrowing the mewtwo across the stage until about 150%. I found that this worked quite well and in a while, I was JCing without even thinking about it.
__________________________________________________
Retreating SH Double Fairs
This is really useful against aggressive space animals. I would suggest choosing a large stage like FD or DL, setting the game type to "time" and the time limit to "0" or infinity. This is most easily (and apparently efficiently) done with cstick. The idea is to shorthop backwards while double-fairing, thus giving you range -and- spacing.
__________________________________________________
Wall/Edge/Ledge Teching
In "an endless KO fest" (Time gametype, "None" time limit), choose a slow character like Peach or Ganon lvl1 as your opponent. Set items to "High" with Motion Sensor Bombs as the only item selected. Choose FD as the stage, and as you get more comfortable, other stages.
Once the match starts, pick up a motion sensor bomb, run off the stage and as you do so, chuck the MSB at the edge of the stage. This will turn you around. As you fall, Up+B, press L/R around 20 frames before making contact with the bomb (this is harder with Marth) and you will tech. Didn't get it the first time? Well, that's why we're practicing it. Get another MSB and do it again.
Another thing which is nice to know - Marth isn't supposed to walltech jump (done by holding up after wallteching). In the even that you DO, though, by accident, contrary to popular belief, YOU ARE NOT DEAD. If you are fast enough, you can bair immediately to stop your momentum and fall and recover. Another trixxy thing is to let Marth finish his jumping motion, and as he starts falling, fwd+b towards the stage, and angle your up+b. This actually works, and some people might assume you're dead and not edgehog you. Ideally, Marth is supposed to walltech (no jump), fast fall, and try for a sweetspot.
Something that I found out that I haven't seen used with Marth is similar to one of Fox/Falco's recovery strats. If Marth hasn't used his initial fwd+b, he can use it IMMEDIATELY after the walltech to grab the edge while still in invincibility frames. Imagine that!
The reason you chose ganon/peach is because they walk slowly at lvl1. The reason you chose "endless KO fest" instead of training mode is because you cannot use the C-stick to ASDI in training mode.
__________________________________________________
"Spacing"
In layman's terms, spacing is what a character does to create the proper amount of distance between itself and its enemy, such that he can land hits, but is out-of-range from retaliatory attacks. In marth's case, this is very crucial. Marth makes use of his disjointed hitbox (see a definition under Melee Discussion forum) usually keeping at a tipper range.
But how to practice it at home? It's quite hard, but some ideas are:
- Playing against a LVL1 and killing them using only tipper fairs
- Get used to C-sticking aerials for added control
- Examine Marth's hitboxes, get familiar with them (AR?)
- Face several mid-level CPUs (friendly fire off) and set a maximum damage goal
- Dashdance -> grab/fair small characters like Pichu
- Go to Yoshi's story and try to tipper fair/fsmash the shyguys
IASA Knowledge
To improve capability of general combos, it is important that the player knows when a move has officially ended and a succeeding move may be inputted. "Interruptable As Soon As" knowledge is important. One can get a better feel for when a move is ending by immediately shielding after the move is finished. Go to any stage, perform a ground attack (including grab, sidestep dodge, etc) , and hold L during the move. As soon as the move finishes, Marth will shield. Now you know that as soon as Marth can shield, Marth can do other crap. Knowledge of this timing is important to be "fast".
I've not yet figured out a way for figure out when air attacks are initially completed. Spamming the "A" button would work in result in a nair, but I don't think that's accurate enough, unless you're Silentwolf and can hit the A button on every frame.
__________________________________________________
Ledge Cancels
This technique is usually used for flashier purposes, but I have seen it used strategically during matches as well. The gist of it is this: Marth does an aerial attack, lands on the corner of a platform/edge, and he slides off immediately, "cancelling" the lag and animation of the previous move. Another aerial can be executed immediately, and the result is a 2-move motion which acts faster than an Lcancel.
I found this quite easy to practice in Mushroom Kingdom II. You'll notice immediately that there are 2 gaps in the middle of the stage. There are 2 areas of higher ground. Just before each higher ground ends and reaches the gap, there is an orange weed a short distance away from the edge (about half a Marth). If Marth does an aerial and his feet land in between the edge and the weed, the move will cancel. This provides a visual for what you should be aiming to hit when ledge cancelling. Another nice thing about this stage is that if you DO miss the ground completely, there is often a bridge of some sort that catches you by the waterfall and saves you from the abyss. Basically, the weed and each edge provide a visual goal for where you should be aiming to hit your primary move. Later, you won't be needing the weed and you'll be able to do it more consistently in other stages. I suggest picking Ness as your opponent because he's an idiot and kills himself all the time here, without bothering you.
__________________________________________________
Up+B Out of Shield
Lately, this has been getting lots of attention. It's pretty useful when laggy moves hit your shield, when you're feeling shield pressure, or just plain old mindgames.
How to learn/practice it: Choose Corneria and a slow lvl1 CPU character on endless melee. Go over to the right part of the stage, and down near the rear of the ship. On this lower level, you'll notice the colour (yes, colour, I'm canadian) changes where the gray (yet again) thing that spurts fire is. Stand there, hold shield, and jump-cancel the shield into an up+b. Now, you're probably saying "wtf you made me come to corneria to do that?". No, guys, I don't have an obsession with Corneria. Up+B onto the wing of the ship, the edge, and your up+b animation will finish much faster. Shield->up+b, grab the edge, fastfall back down, repeat. Wayyy more efficient, that edge is nice.
__________________________________________________
Make sense? What I want is an accumulation of practice tips/ strategies for reference... so that when we're bored and we don't want to flatland infinite Peach any longer with Fox, we turn to Marth and practice.
=] Thanks in advance for your input!
