Potential Specific Ban-List of Customs

[adom4]

What is Kong Cyclone's drawback? From what I can tell, it's literally exactly the same as the normal up B, but with a windbox.

I think it doesn't go as high as the default.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Doesn't go as high, much higher ending lag if you don't platform cancel it. And because you have to platform cancel it, that makes DK's end positions super predictable. Its not the MK tornado from Brawl: he has to pick a platform to land on and stick with it. Which means you can punish it.

You can also always air dodge the strong hit. If you actually know the move, you can legitimately avoid the strong hit like 99% of the time.

 

[Jaxas]

What is Kong Cyclone's drawback? From what I can tell, it's literally exactly the same as the normal up B, but with a windbox.

The grounded version's pretty crap too, weakening it as an OoS option

 

[Unknownkid]

But the advantage of literally every custom move is subjective. There isn't a single one without drawbacks; even HSB, the closest case to a straight upgrade, has nontrivial drawbacks. (Distance and ledge-snap)

Yes, I agree. The game tells you that they have drawbacks and what they are. Anything hidden can be figure out through labbing and frame data. But most players, especially those against customs, do not see them as side grades though. Especially when players can work around their drawbacks. Is it customs fault? Perhaps. Maybe the drawback should be "stronger" or noticeable. I still believe it is the opponent fault for not capitalizing on customs weakness.

I also think Kirby's Upper Cutter is another move close to straight upgrade over Final Cutter imo.

There's no point in playing customs if they don't affect a characters placement in the meta. Ganon, DK, Bowser, Doc all kinda need the gimmicky customs.

I sort of agree. Custom Moves should be MU dependent where you switch sets( instead characters) to combat a situation or a set that cater to your personal play style. I like how young player like SomeDumb*** switch different sets with Ganon depending on who he is verses. Not "let me switch to villager so that I can stall camp you" Mwuhahaha nonsense. What is wrong with you people?

Anyways, I just posting what I am seeing from both sides.

What is Kong Cyclone's drawback? From what I can tell, it's literally exactly the same as the normal up B, but with a windbox.

No, they are quite different.

Default Up B
In the Air, has Invincibility on Startup, Partial Invincibility (frames 12-44), Constant Multiple Hits, Good Vertical/ Horizontal Recovery. On the Ground, it has Super Armor on startup (frames 8-18), Partial Invincible (frames 19-25) Multihits (36% total), Does Good Shield Damage, Long Duration.

Kong Cyclone
In the Air, Super Armor start at frame 15 - ends at 36, 2 Hits (weak hit at the beginning, strong hit at the end), Amazing Horizontal Recovery, Par Vertical Recovery. Windbox and AutoCancel. On the Ground, nothing on startup. Super Armor starts on frame 20 - 44, Two Hits (a weak and strong one).

 

[Dooms]

I think customs would be perfectly tournament viable (both playing and viewing-wise) if mii's were forced into the CMP mii's, small brawler was removed from CMP (meaning only default size was available), and if the combination of trip sapling and exploding balloons was banned. I would hate to see DK, Wii Fit, Shulk, Kirby, DH, Doctor Mario, Palutena, Gunner, and Swordfighter (amongst others I'm probably forgetting) be removed from competitive play just because the majority of people think custom Villager, small brawler, airbender kong, and HSB Pikachu are too good (When they're not). :/

However, with custom Villager being countered simply by timing him out (meaning that one or the other player is going for a timeout semi-consistently) and brawler having a grab combo that can kill at 10-40% and a <10 frame OoS move that can kill at 50-60% without a grab combo near a ledge, it leads to a toxic meta. It's do-able to beat both of those (as with any custom set), but it creates a meta that a standard player doesn't want to participate in. :/

Just my opinion as a small brawler + custom Villager player in a custom-mixed region.

 

[Thinkaman]

What is Kong Cyclone's drawback? From what I can tell, it's literally exactly the same as the normal up B, but with a windbox.

In addition to what was already posted, the lack of continuous (actual) hitboxes make Kong Cyclone vulnerable to (command) grabs, while the default--like any wall-o-hitboxes move--ordinarily beats.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I think customs would be perfectly tournament viable (both playing and viewing-wise) if mii's were forced into the CMP mii's, small brawler was removed from CMP (meaning only default size was available), and if the combination of trip sapling and exploding balloons was banned. I would hate to see DK, Wii Fit, Shulk, Kirby, DH, Doctor Mario, Palutena, Gunner, and Swordfighter (amongst others I'm probably forgetting) be removed from competitive play just because the majority of people think custom Villager, small brawler, airbender kong, and HSB Pikachu are too good (When they're not). :/

However, with custom Villager being countered simply by timing him out (meaning that one or the other player is going for a timeout semi-consistently) and brawler having a grab combo that can kill at 10-40% and a <10 frame OoS move that can kill at 50-60% without a grab combo near a ledge, it leads to a toxic meta. It's do-able to beat both of those (as with any custom set), but it creates a meta that a standard player doesn't want to participate in. :/

Just my opinion as a small brawler + custom Villager player in a custom-mixed region.

Great post. And yeah I don't get it, strictly banning customs is such a **** move towards a lot of people. A huge **** move, even the meta knight ban didn't work and was protested against by a number of people who are now fine with effectively banning a plethora of characters by stripping them of their viability. All because of made up arguments which don't make sense and villager+pikachu. Nevermind that villager and pika even with customs do not compare to the original version of Diddy, or brawl MK, or brawl Icies.

What the fugg happened to the competitive scene between when smash 4 took brawls place? Ever since it came out people have been screaming for bans over stuff they would have been fine with if it was brawl, people just abandoned their principles. 1 inch punch doesn't compare to Ice Climbers grab yet it was banned almost instantly. I want people to be upfront about the fact that they've turned their coats :S They don't even seem to realize it.What is so hard about just banning the combo of trip sapling and exploding balloons as well as heavy skull bash? Heck ban brawlers helikick as well, its a pretty lame move despite not being ban worthy. Its still a million times better a decision than banning all customs.

I don't get it. Its much less of a violation of the principles of competitive gaming than banning customs.I don't see customs coming back soon either, not until people start growing tired of the default meta for real, which will take another year in the least. And if customs begin to see a comeback then its gonna be the same **** all over again. Villager and Pika being the only characters who actually provide some substance to the anti-custom crowd. People who whined about cyclone were just clueless, we know that for certain now, yet you still hear whining about it.There's something about the moves being customs, unlockables, not intended for competitive play by nintendo (who know nothing about competitive gaming and don't much care for it) which makes it so that you don't have to make sense in order to argue against them, despite none of those things being proper arguments. That and the fact that most people who are against customs do not use them, didn't unlock them quickly, or haven't even done so yet despite eve (more common that you'd think in my experience), so they don't feel like THEY are losing anything by banning customs. Of course tons will be lost, but since it doesn't effect them its okay.The bar for what is bannable, janky, problematic or what have you is set way lower when it comes to customs.Lots of smart posters fall for this too, its really depressing how flimsy people are. Used to be ban-worthy meant something.Oh well, I guess nothing can be done. People are simply too stupid. The smash 4 scene is set on cutting its own foot off and spitting in the face of plenty of players because of stupidity, pure selfishness, and mob mentality.

 

[blackghost]

you can see even on this thread players haven't even thoroughly (or even surface) tested these custom moves. DK cyclone and default cyclone dont even LOOK the same aesthetically. Whehngfhdf

 

[shadowmm151]

This thread is sort of funny. It's surprising how many people seem to be afraid of change and don't want custom moves for no LEGITIMATE reason. There are literally no BROKEN customs with the exception of MAYBE heavy skull bash, but to be honest would anyone really complain about this move if Pikachu was mediocre and not a top tier threat?

My personal take on the custom moves are that they're only 'too stronk' if you aren't familiar with them. I used to think Mario's gust cape was 'broken,' but after having faced it a number of times it's not nearly the threat I originally thought it was. Same with a number of other moves like Fox's twisting fox upB. I used to think that was the most overpowered move in the game (and it really is in FFA lol), but after having faced it I realized a) it really really really hurts his recovery b) there are practically no guaranteed setups for it and c) the startup is atrocious so you'll rarely get hit by it. I used to lose every stock to this move, but I can't honestly remember the last time it hit me in a 1v1. And that's the deal with most customs, once you learn about them they're not really bad at all. Hell, compared to some default specials (bouncing kick, bananas, QA, etc.) that are amazing why are we worrying about customs.

That being said, the only customs that might be banned, although I personally think none will minus maybe the first one I list, are as follows below. Keep in mind that many of these could eventually be patched like how some other customs have been. That would be a much better alternative to banning a specific move. However, the only surefire way to get these moves patched is to get the attention of Nintendo and the only way to do that is to push the customs meta-game.

's Heavy Skull Bash: For a weak character like Pikachu this move add a kill option and the recovery is easier to take advantage of than default. Part of what makes this move amazing is that you don't even need to charge it ever. The distance is the same at any charge, it comes out fast, travels a fair distance and is already stupid strong for such a good move without charging. Out of all the customs, I feel this is the ONLY one which is a straight upgrade in EVERY way. To be honest, this move is likely only so overpowered since it's on Pikachu who is already amazing. On a mid or low tier character we probably wouldn't be complaining so much.

's Paralyzing Needles: In the same vein as Pikachu, these needles are likely only an issue because they're on Sheik. Just to be fair, I think regular needles are already very, very good and because of that these needles feel like they detract from the experience (aka make things too unfair). Now some might disagree since they're less needles than default and they don't do any more damage, but my complaint is that these needles eat up shields! Sheik is already a phenomenal character, but now it's unsafe to guard a projectile which basically limits options when dealing with these needles. Again, the reward for these needles aren't that much greater than regular needles (which already have a high reward), but it just feels unnecessary for Sheik to have this additional advantage.

's Jumbo Hoop: While I personally think WFT is one of the weakest characters in the game and NEEDS a move as good as this, it's only fair to point out this high reward move of hers like I did with Pikachu and Sheik. Sure they're amazing already while WFT isn't at all, but that doesn't mean a character should keep a very, very good custom just because they're bad. Sometimes it feels like a Brawl version of mach tornado. It can tack on upwards of 30+ damage, breaks through a lot of moves and is strong from the ledge as well. This move took some getting used to, but in the end I learned how to defend against and let's be honest; you're still fighting WFT...

's Egg Launch: While Egg Lay is a fairly solid special, I truly HATE Egg Launch with a passion. It's a bit weaker than Egg Lay, but if you get caught with it by the edge it can truly ruin you. Like I said, it is weaker so you can jam the joystick to get out easier, but this special's problem is likely more a 'me' issue than a 'egg launch' issue. The move catches me off guard more often than not and by the time I start jamming on the joystick I'm far as hell from the stage and I barely recover. God forbid I play someone like Mac or Doc... That being said, the move is strong in the sense that it can create a favorable situation very easily and if the opponent doesn't react fast enough, recovery will become predictable and easy to edgeguard.


And that's really my only complaints, although I will address other specials I've heard complaints about.

's Timber Counter: I used to think this move was broken. After playing against it, I found that it's not nearly as amazing as we originally thought. Firstly, this move makes use almost entirely of the sapling's trip effect and not the tree itself. That means part of villager's strength is chipped away since he can no longer use his tree. Secondly, this move can certainly be devastating to some characters who rely on a strong ground game, but character's with a strong aerial game don't really feel much pressure from it. Lastly, while it's still very good, we have a stage striking process and this sapling can be made wholly less efficient by merely striking Flat stages. The sapling is hardly noticeable on Battlefield.

's Extreme Balloon Trip: The patch pretty much helped balance this move out.

Wind effect moves like 's Gust Cape: They're overpowered when you're unfamiliar with them, but once you're used to them they're not bad. You can push against the wind effect, shield them and air dodge.

Power counters: These are certainly strong, but have small windows, larger vulnerabilities and require an amazing read. Personally I think 's isn't really that different from his normal one, but it's still manageable.

I already discussed my thoughts on 's Twisting Fox earlier.

Okay that's my two cents. Thoughts?

 

[blackghost]

This thread is sort of funny. It's surprising how many people seem to be afraid of change and don't want custom moves for no LEGITIMATE reason. There are literally no BROKEN customs with the exception of MAYBE heavy skull bash, but to be honest would anyone really complain about this move if Pikachu was mediocre and not a top tier threat?

My personal take on the custom moves are that they're only 'too stronk' if you aren't familiar with them. I used to think Mario's gust cape was 'broken,' but after having faced it a number of times it's not nearly the threat I originally thought it was. Same with a number of other moves like Fox's twisting fox upB. I used to think that was the most overpowered move in the game (and it really is in FFA lol), but after having faced it I realized a) it really really really hurts his recovery b) there are practically no guaranteed setups for it and c) the startup is atrocious so you'll rarely get hit by it. I used to lose every stock to this move, but I can't honestly remember the last time it hit me in a 1v1. And that's the deal with most customs, once you learn about them they're not really bad at all. Hell, compared to some default specials (bouncing kick, bananas, QA, etc.) that are amazing why are we worrying about customs.

That being said, the only customs that might be banned, although I personally think none will minus maybe the first one I list, are as follows below. Keep in mind that many of these could eventually be patched like how some other customs have been. That would be a much better alternative to banning a specific move. However, the only surefire way to get these moves patched is to get the attention of Nintendo and the only way to do that is to push the customs meta-game.

's Heavy Skull Bash: For a weak character like Pikachu this move add a kill option and the recovery is easier to take advantage of than default. Part of what makes this move amazing is that you don't even need to charge it ever. The distance is the same at any charge, it comes out fast, travels a fair distance and is already stupid strong for such a good move without charging. Out of all the customs, I feel this is the ONLY one which is a straight upgrade in EVERY way. To be honest, this move is likely only so overpowered since it's on Pikachu who is already amazing. On a mid or low tier character we probably wouldn't be complaining so much.

's Paralyzing Needles: In the same vein as Pikachu, these needles are likely only an issue because they're on Sheik. Just to be fair, I think regular needles are already very, very good and because of that these needles feel like they detract from the experience (aka make things too unfair). Now some might disagree since they're less needles than default and they don't do any more damage, but my complaint is that these needles eat up shields! Sheik is already a phenomenal character, but now it's unsafe to guard a projectile which basically limits options when dealing with these needles. Again, the reward for these needles aren't that much greater than regular needles (which already have a high reward), but it just feels unnecessary for Sheik to have this additional advantage.

's Jumbo Hoop: While I personally think WFT is one of the weakest characters in the game and NEEDS a move as good as this, it's only fair to point out this high reward move of hers like I did with Pikachu and Sheik. Sure they're amazing already while WFT isn't at all, but that doesn't mean a character should keep a very, very good custom just because they're bad. Sometimes it feels like a Brawl version of mach tornado. It can tack on upwards of 30+ damage, breaks through a lot of moves and is strong from the ledge as well. This move took some getting used to, but in the end I learned how to defend against and let's be honest; you're still fighting WFT...

's Egg Launch: While Egg Lay is a fairly solid special, I truly HATE Egg Launch with a passion. It's a bit weaker than Egg Lay, but if you get caught with it by the edge it can truly ruin you. Like I said, it is weaker so you can jam the joystick to get out easier, but this special's problem is likely more a 'me' issue than a 'egg launch' issue. The move catches me off guard more often than not and by the time I start jamming on the joystick I'm far as hell from the stage and I barely recover. God forbid I play someone like Mac or Doc... That being said, the move is strong in the sense that it can create a favorable situation very easily and if the opponent doesn't react fast enough, recovery will become predictable and easy to edgeguard.


And that's really my only complaints, although I will address other specials I've heard complaints about.

's Timber Counter: I used to think this move was broken. After playing against it, I found that it's not nearly as amazing as we originally thought. Firstly, this move makes use almost entirely of the sapling's trip effect and not the tree itself. That means part of villager's strength is chipped away since he can no longer use his tree. Secondly, this move can certainly be devastating to some characters who rely on a strong ground game, but character's with a strong aerial game don't really feel much pressure from it. Lastly, while it's still very good, we have a stage striking process and this sapling can be made wholly less efficient by merely striking Flat stages. The sapling is hardly noticeable on Battlefield.

's Extreme Balloon Trip: The patch pretty much helped balance this move out.

Wind effect moves like 's Gust Cape: They're overpowered when you're unfamiliar with them, but once you're used to them they're not bad. You can push against the wind effect, shield them and air dodge.

Power counters: These are certainly strong, but have small windows, larger vulnerabilities and require an amazing read. Personally I think 's isn't really that different from his normal one, but it's still manageable.

I already discussed my thoughts on 's Twisting Fox earlier.

Okay that's my two cents. Thoughts?

fair breakdown. Don't think piercing needle on shiek should be banned due to game mechanics and basically hyper shield regen. If shields recharged like melee sped this move would be OP. I've had a similar experience with customs (kirby giant hammer) the first time i got hit with that I swear it was the saltiest moment in my smash career. Now i know how to deal with it. That's the same with most custom moves. And honestly im not aware of any custom move that is as good as needles, monkey flip, or boostkick. Feel free to correct me on that. But most people simply hate what they haven't tried. And playing 3 matches against DK cyclone isn't trying. When you really study the custom moves it clear they are balanced because custom moves beat other custom moves. Kong cyclone flat out losses to mega hoops thats just my favorite example. Meteor trampoline destroys stalling villager. the list goes on and on.

 

[19_]

Honestly I like the idea that maybe there customs legal at least for lower tier characters. I don't think anyone would complain if , , or had their custom moves.

 

[Balgorxz]

Honestly I like the idea that maybe there customs legal at least for lower tier characters. I don't think anyone would complain if , , or had their custom moves.

I am actually in favor of this, IMO only miis,palutena and low tiers should have customs allowed but since patches exist for now it's really hard to know which character is really bad since it won't last for too much time until it gets buffed.

 

[19_]

I am actually in favor of this, IMO only miis,palutena and low tiers should have customs allowed but since patches exist for now it's really hard to know which character is really bad since it won't last for too much time until it gets buffed.

Even with low tiers getting buffed they never seem to get buffed enough to escape their prisons, so I don't think it's an issue. The only issue is what Characters are low tier. I'd probably put , (1111),,, , , and into this category but others would debate about it. Not to mention their is still bias against lightweight ,helicopter kick and perhaps jumbo hoop .
, , , , , , and seem like the safest characters to have customs on for.

 

[Dooms]

Leaving customs on just for low tiers is kinda silly tbh (Especially since we don't have an official list of low tiers). The biggest reason for this being a bad idea is because low tiers without customs like Mii Brawler, Kirby, Palutena, and Donkey Kong become legitimate threats with customs, but because of that you're suggesting that those four (amongst others I'm sure) don't get access to their custom moves. That's silly. Also, you're underrating Robin (especially with custom moves).

 

[blackghost]

Honestly I like the idea that maybe there customs legal at least for lower tier characters. I don't think anyone would complain if , , or had their custom moves.

This thought process also opens the door to them getting banned arbitrarily because now they are "too good." Why all these extra rules beyond the game? Still haven't seen or heard a good reason for these moves to be banned for all characters. Some characters have good defaults some have good custom moves. Why do the ones with bad defaults get the short end of the stick? And why does custom rulesets have to be so needlessly complicated? Do people really just not want more options for characters because they are lazy to learn moves?
This is probably mentioned somewhere in the thread but default top tiers don't exactly die off in custom play. shiek is still shiek and so is rosalina. The only difference is some 300 pus moves aren't banned for no reason.

 

[19_]

Leaving customs on just for low tiers is kinda silly tbh (Especially since we don't have an official list of low tiers). The biggest reason for this being a bad idea is because low tiers without customs like Mii Brawler, Kirby, Palutena, and Donkey Kong become legitimate threats with customs, but because of that you're suggesting that those four (amongst others I'm sure) don't get access to their custom moves. That's silly. Also, you're underrating Robin (especially with custom moves).

This thought process also opens the door to them getting banned arbitrarily because now they are "too good." Why all these extra rules beyond the game? Still haven't seen or heard a good reason for these moves to be banned for all characters. Some characters have good defaults some have good custom moves. Why do the ones with bad defaults get the short end of the stick? And why does customs on have to be so needlessly complicated? Do people really just not want more options for characters because they are lazy to learn moves?
This is probably mentioned somewhere in the thread but default top tiers dont exactly die off in custom play? shiek is still shiek and so is rosalina. The only difference is some 300 pus moves are banned for no reason.

I'm honestly just throwing out ideas for compromises. The best suggestion has already been mentioned which is to only ban customs that are broken aka hsb pika, but seeing how people just want to do away with the all customs just because of a few moves I willing to go the extra mile on making this meta work in this current juncture.

I actually don't care if trip sapling, exploding ballons, kong cyclone, and helicopter kick are banned. These polarizing moves are not what the customs meta is about in my mind. It is about using certain moves to counter certain match ups.

My main maybe locked into 3x3x sets but his side specials and down specials have applications that prefer different characters. Giant hammer is a great move kill move with super armor but against character who get great reward off of grab it becomes too risky to use imo. It is a move not worth using at all against .

I just want so see the customs discussion move away from "moves sets that are overgeneralizing" to "moves sets that are used for certain match ups".

 

[shadowmm151]

Well EVO 2015 has come and gone and I don't think anyone saw anything broken with any customs. Now maybe that's because people were playing it safe at EVO and going default, but the fact is there was no 'jank' to speak of in this tournament. Looks like customs will likely be allowed further down the line and we'll have to wait and see if any individual customs become a problem.