Poll: Bowser's suicide claw

[Marc]

There seems to be an inconsistency in the screen resulting from Bowser ending the game with a suicide move, his forward+B (sometimes it's a win, sometimes it's not). I am of the opinion Bowser should always win in this scenario in order to promote consistency.

 

[Jonas]

Why let the port number decide? It's been known forever that the game always ends in a Sudden Death if Bowser has the highest port number. It's not random, it is very consistent, but it's still a bad decision that should be rectified with tournament rules.

 

[Flayl]

I think a poll on Ganon's suicide-move is more relevant (this one seems kind of obvious to me). You can make a winning ganon tie/lose by jumping in front of him when he recovers with OverB.

 

[Navn]

Bowser should win. It's him hitting with a move, and the game was (partly) programmed to give him the win.

I agree that the debate on Ganon's Gerudo is more interesting, even though noone uses him competitively.

 

[Calzum!]

This is obvious bowser should win.

 

[K@0S]

20/0

The result was quite predictable anyway

 

[Marc]

Just a formality.

In Ganondorf's case, is there any consistency in the results screen?

 

[Greward]

If ganondorf picks someone with side b offstage he cant drop out so ganondorf should win, but idk why sometimes ganondorf dies first, it's pretty stupid lol

About kirby/ddd/wario/diddy/etc we should take care of screen results. If it's sudden death, who used the move should win, if not the other wins because he may have dropped out of the grab. But you cant drop out of ganondorf or bowser's side b so they should win ignoring screen results.

 

[Lord Chair]

If ganondorf picks someone with side b offstage he cant drop out so ganondorf should win, but idk why sometimes ganondorf dies first, it's pretty stupid lol

About kirby/ddd/wario/diddy/etc we should take care of screen results. If it's sudden death, who used the move should win, if not the other wins because he may have dropped out of the grab. But you cant drop out of ganondorf or bowser's side b so they should win ignoring screen results.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[J03]

this is very similar to the 'i had already won when i lost' debate

the game is the ref, what it says goes. if theres inconsistancies with a move its up to us to find out whats causing it and spread the word.

again NOONE is above the game. we are players, it is our manager.

 

[Navn]

^Port priority causes it. Are we going to let port priority determine who wins the match? It's not like players can do anything to get the best port if they already lost the Rock / Paper / Scissors that most tournaments use.

Spoiler

Except just getting better at RPS: http://www.worldrps.com/advanced.html

About Ganondorf, i'm pretty sure that the game mechanics make it either a tie or a loss for Ganondorf, depending on the port. Like Ganondorf wasn't screwed up enough without a horrible suicide-move :@

Edit: **** spoilertags for not hiding the link

Edit Edit: Did a little testing on the Ganondorf thing, the guy suiciding never gets the win.

P1: Grandpadorf
P2: Ganondorf

Test 1, 2 and 3
P2 does Suicide on P1, P1 wins

Test 3, 4 and 5
P1 does Suicide on P2, Sudden Death

Looks pretty consistent to me, although i haven't factored in things like % and different characters than Ganondorf. The only variable here is controller port, since i set both players to Ganondorf.

 

[K@0S]

Ganondorf's suicide kill finishing the match should result in a tie if it's impossible for him to win that way. Just like kirbycide/ddd etc.

Atm we only voted for Bowser's one though.

 

[Marc]

Can't you simply look at percentage whenever the game ends with a suicide move that is either a tie or a loss for the one performing it? That's what you do in case of a regular tie too.

 

[Flayl]

Is there a way to check that after the suicide? When somebody dies for the last time the % meter disappears, and I can't remember if you can check the % of only the last stock in the results screen.

 

[Marc]

I don't think so, but that is kind of moot considering it's still a way of solving ties that is already in use.

 

[Flayl]

I don't see how it's moot... You need it to resolve disputes.

You can easily (it consumes time though) solve a dispute with that rule by having the replay longer than three minutes code, but otherwise I can't see how the % rule is sound. At all.

 

[Marc]

It only leads to a dispute if one of the players is lying about it and no one was around to see the game. In that case, the game most likely has to be replayed. It's moot because every single tournament ever resolves ties by looking at percentage, the question is if an exception should be made for suicide moves other than Bowser's claw. IMO, always treating it as a tie is doing those characters a favor already because the game treats it as a tie at best.

 

[Lord Chair]

To be honest, checking percentages is a bit of a silly thing to do. If I'm Bowser at 110% and somehow I manage to take you with me while you're 111%, you should count it as a tie? Then it's a tie, and you have to redo the match/sudden death (lulz), or else Bowser should lose, even though the attack would've done 18% and get Bowser the lead?

Even worse, if a player can allow Bowser to Bowsercide ON PURPOSE, thereby exploiting the metagame (if it would be decided that Bowser is to lose due to percentage stuff), then how is that different from allowing Bowser to Bowsercide in his favour? The player with the lower percentage gets more control over the direction of the Klaw, depending on how much less percentage he has the more influence he gets. As such, if Bowser Klaws you when you're 150% behind I wouldn't count it unfair to declare Bowser the winner, if somehow Bowser manages to Bowsercide someone who's behind in percentage and manages to get the kill anyway then who's to blame?

Also, I believe that Bowser can do some strange Brawl mechanic thingy which causes him to win anyway. I'd ask Ixis but oh well.

This probably is all very vague (my reasoning that is), I'm tired and just wrote down stuff.

TL;DR: You can't prevent Bowser from exploiting the metagame and allow his opponent to actually do so, consistent and fair results > Sakurai reasoning (none).

edit: Lulz Marc wasn't even talking about Klaw anymore. Let me just say that other move should be addressed invididually, though Inhale moves don't warrant discussion in the first place (game should decide because of the relevant mechanics), only moves that cause both of the players to fall into the abyss no matter what (ie: no matter what the players do) should be discussed, though I do not believe there are any apart of Ganon's sideB and Bowser's Klaw, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Flayl]

It only leads to a dispute if one of the players is lying about it and no one was around to see the game.

Or both of the percentages are really close, or both players only memorized the first 2 digits, etc.

 

[shadyf0o]

Edit: Misunderstanding.

 

[Staco]

The result screen should decide it.
Bowser can just jump out at the end of the Suicide Animation, so that he stays alive some more seconds, before his enemy dies.
This always gives the win to Bowser.

 

[J03]

unless a bowser main expressed this to me before the match begin i would not accept the loss regardless of what this thread determines. i can even see the poor guys arguement.

'i won'

'no the screen says i won'

'but i did a suicide claw so i auto won'

'ya and you can go home thinking that...'

hell even if he got an official over that knew about this thread, i could very easily deny it. im not saying i would, im just saying some people might. The result from this thread should be as follows.

Bowser mains always get P1 slot.

 

[Flayl]

Bowser can't lose with a suicide klaw. Shows how much you know...

The result screen should decide it.
Bowser can just jump out at the end of the Suicide Animation, so that he stays alive some more seconds, before his enemy dies.
This always gives the win to Bowser.

This doesn't work on a lot of levels...

 

[Red Arremer]

only moves that cause both of the players to fall into the abyss no matter what (ie: no matter what the players do) should be discussed, though I do not believe there are any apart of Ganon's sideB and Bowser's Klaw, correct me if I'm wrong.

You forgot Link going off-stage. :B
Just kidding, I wouldn't know of any other move but those two.

 

[Lord Chair]

You forgot Link going off-stage. :B
Just kidding, I wouldn't know of any other move but those two.

Quoting just to show approval ^^

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Zero suit's dair (ace)

 

[iamjason8]

Bowser should win! He got nerfed already. xD

 

[Yikarur]

Bowser should win because
either Bowser wins or sudden death
so sudden death should be ignored (like always) and Bowser gets the win.

If Ganondorf uses his sideB he either loses or sudden death
so sudden death should be ignored and Ganondorf gets the lose.

oh and hi, I've never noticed that subforum lol

 

[J03]

hahaha omg this is brawl, lol let bowser always win, regardless of the outcome of the match. he is a terrible character in a terrible game, cut the guy some slack.

EDIT: to clarify, i am saying that the bowser should ALWAYS win, even if he gets 3 stocked.