Pokemon Trainer: Why He Doesn't Have As Much Potential As You Think

[Demenise]

I am a Pokemon Trainer main myself, and it's a fact that many on this board believe that the Pokemon Trainer has potential that will help him reach the higher tiers (above middle.) However, this "potential," although existant, is much less than you all think. Please be aware that I would enjoy keeping Pokemon Trainer in the lower tiers, yet I'm not stating any of this information in a biased manor.

First off, people always relate the Pokemon Trainer to the Ice Climbers. In Melee, the Ice Climbers started off low, then grew and grew in popularity after the skill, de-synching, was discovered. This technique allowed you to play as the Ice Climbers as two seperate characters, meaning that a regular match was a two on one. People think that, since the Pokemon Trainer contains three different characters in one, they'll be successful like the Ice Climbers, which is only two characters in one. However, there are many differences that disproves this theory. One is that, for the Ice Climbers, both of them are out at the same time. They can act in a pair, doing things alternatively, allowing two characters to be pressuring the opponent at once. With Pokemon Trainer, each Pokemon is out seperately. This means that they can't all act at the same time. There are no techniques to bring them out at the same time. Therefore, they act as a regular character, not possessing anything unique about themselves. Also, they all have the same damage meter, while the Ice Climbers both have different ones, meaning that the Ice Climbers have double the life of the Pokemon Trainer's pokemon.

Next, let's talk about fatigue. After a long time of fighting, your pokemon gets fatigued, and their damage and knockback output get lowered. Now, if you switch before the fatigue, it's no problem. However, let's say that you wait it out. Now, your opponent will feel more comforatable assaulting you, knowing that you don't pose as much as a threat. The common technique is to switch in the middle of the battlefield. However, at the end of the switch, there's so much vulnerability that your opponent can easily charge up a smash and release it as soon as the pokemon is released, cutting you short a life. You could also try fighting the opponent until they're knocked back far enough that you can switch before they recover. However, this will require added effort, which will cause you to gain some percentile in the mean time. By the time that you DO switch, you'll have either gained too much damage (in which case you should just play it out instead of switching,) switch perfectly (which happens only if you've racked up enough damage,) or your opponent will get back just in time to smash you (-1 stock.) Now, let's say that you see that your pokemon is about to get fatigued. Naturally, you'll want to get your opponent out of the way then switch. However, once your opponent sees that you're knocking him away and not pursuing him, he'll know that you're trying to switch. That's when he'll start to become more aggressive, making it more difficult to find an opening to switch. Heck, he could just be standing around far enough away not to be attacked. If you decide to switch, he'll charge a smash on you. If you decide to try and attack him, he can just continue defending until you get fatigued. Eventually, you WILL reach the point of fatigue, and that's when the pain is inflicted on you.

One more flaw is the sole fact that Pokemon Trainer HAS to use all three Pokemon. Inside his group of Pokemon, he usually has one good one that can counter the opponent. However, where there's a good counter, there's also one that your opponent can counter. This is where one of the Pokemon Trainer's major flaw lies. You can easily use one Pokemon that has an advantage over the opponent for awhile, but once you reach the point of fatigue, it's time to switch out to the Pokemon worse against the particular enemy. This is where your opponent has the advantage: manipulation. As stated above, your opponent can play a defensive game for a long time until a Pokemon gets fatigued. So, he has the ability to do that on a Pokemon that has the advantage over him. Once the Pokemon gets fatigued, he usually decides to switch. Once you switch to a different Pokemon, your opponent can start playing offensive against that one. Your opponent has just successfully made a predator into prey, simply by manipulating the opponent's trait. Of course, you could always get your opponent away and change, but this could be difficult in some cases. This could cause a lot of problems for the Trainer, especially when your opponent is a great defender, such as Lucario or Toon Link.

So, what exactly are the Trainer's advantages? The biggest one would be having three different dominate playstyles in one character. You have your damage racker (Squirtle,) your defense (Ivysaur,) and your tank (Charizard.) Unlike other characters, like Bowser, who excel in only one point, you have a character that excels at all three. The only problem is that you cannot access this all at once, yet that can be worked out. This means that, in a tournament where you can only play as one character throughout the whole thing, Pokemon Trainer would be a viable (yet still not amazing) option. However, if this tournament allows you to switch off characters between rounds, you might be better off mastering three different great characters, such as Toon Link, Meta Knight, and Snake, then simply switching off between these three.

To sum it up, although I do believe that Pokemon Trainer does have some potential, it's not nearly as much as you all make it out to be. Even when the full potential is utilized, I still only see him being in middle tier.

 

[Onxy]

Stopped reading at the half damage and knock back part - but will continue reading. It's not halved, neither is the knockback, it's lowered, but not that much. I hope you don't tell every PT main that.


Edit: I finished reading and here are my responses: You know when I decide to switch from Squirtle to Ivy, I tend to get them into the 100's before I do a Dgrab - and it works very well 'cause I don't get hit while switching. Ivy can be a bit harder because she has to Fsmash usually to do it - If she does land it though, she can switch with no worry, considering Ivy to Charizard is the quickest switch. For Charizard, if the match up is bad, he still shouldn't switch, unless he is undamaged and open to do it - still kinda risky because Charizard to Squirtle is the slowest switch.

I don't know if playing keep away from the PT will be great depending on the character.

 

[Demenise]

Stopped reading at the half damage and knock back part - but will continue reading. It's not halved, neither is the knockback, it's lowered, but not that much. I hope you don't tell every PT main that.

Sorry, not halved. Just lowered, but it's by a significant amount, enough to change the current battle. That's what I really meant. I'll fix it now. =P

 

[PanamaConMan]

Pokemon trainer could easily reach middle tier, its just that not that many people are using him right now, so its kind of hard for him to go up in the tiers.

 

[Retro Gaming]

You make some valid points. I quite honestly don't care where he ends up, since I simply love the character, but there are a few things that I want to dispute here.

I often make that Ice Climber analogy, however, not for the reason that you pointed out. I use it simply for the fact that the Ice Climbers went from a very low position to a considerably much higher one. I am in no way saying that the Pokemon Trainer will ever have such a dramatic change. Personally, I don't ever seeing him getting any higher than the middle area of Mid tier. However, I do believe that people are both under and over estimating the PT. Anyone who believes that because he has three characters he is similar to the Ice Climbers is wrong, as both characters have a unique position in the cast.

Fatigue is, in my opinion, not as big a deal as you make it out. At least, not for all three Pokemon. The obvious: Squirtle NEEDS to avoid fatigue. It's just like you say, Squirtle is completely incapable of success in fatigue. However, I feel differently about the other two Pokemon when they are beset by fatigue.

Ivysaur has an amazing defense, as you say. In my opinion, fatigue should not hinder anything of Ivy's EXCEPT the kncok-outs, which can be worked around. Firstly, Ivysaur has Bullet Seed. There's nothing that says you are incapable of using Bullet Seed at higher percentages, and I often do it if I am fatigued. However, more important is the fact that Ivysaur's defense is not affected by fatigue. Even if you have to deal with fatigue, you can go about playing your own defensive game to counter-act your opponent's, and versus most characters, yours will be more effective. You can live a surprisingly long time if you are very careful with Ivysaur.

Charizard has similar traits, in this regard. The reason I think Charizard is so effective is because it combines smaller doses of Ivysaur's defense and Squirtle's offensive nature, giving you the ability to do both. Charizard is difficult to KO because of hsi weight. He has a powerful move for causing damage in the form of Rock Smash, and Flamethrower can help do smaller percents if your opponent blindly approaches you or has a bad recovery (Link, Olimar, etc.) But, in addition, I never have a very difficult time KOing with a fatigued Charizard. In total honesty, I allow Charizard to remain out UNTIL he is KO'd, for obvious reasons in regard to Squirtle. Yes, you will have to put in more effort, but I don't think it's as much as you make it seem. Charizard is still capable at killing at 170% with his Down-throw, only about 40% more than normal. This is only a few Rock Smashes, about five or six tilts, etc. Charizard is also capable of killing at much lower percentages, even in fatigue, with his spike.

Your last point is probably the most important flaw the PT has, and there is very little you can do about it. However, outright stalling is often called in tournaments, so that shouldn't be a large problem. And while there is a Pokemon that is often countered by the opponent, there is no need to use that Pokemon for a prolonged period of time. Especially if you are anticipating such an action, I would allow the Pokemon that comes prior in the switching order to the disadvantaged Pokemon to remain out as long as possible, building enough damage for the next one to use a quick launch and escape. Throws are also very powerful tools for switching, even in fatigue. When you are in fatigue, you MUST switch to a defensive game. It's the only way you will ever find an opening to switch (Assuming you want to).

You make good points, but I think you sell the fatigued Pokemon short. Yes, you need to put in more effort. But you make it out as if it were impossible.

 

[Demenise]

You make some valid points. I quite honestly don't care where he ends up, since I simply love the character, but there are a few things that I want to dispute here.

I often make that Ice Climber analogy, however, not for the reason that you pointed out. I use it simply for the fact that the Ice Climbers went from a very low position to a considerably much higher one. I am in no way saying that the Pokemon Trainer will ever have such a dramatic change. Personally, I don't ever seeing him getting any higher than the middle area of Mid tier. However, I do believe that people are both under and over estimating the PT. Anyone who believes that because he has three characters he is similar to the Ice Climbers is wrong, as both characters have a unique position in the cast.

Fatigue is, in my opinion, not as big a deal as you make it out. At least, not for all three Pokemon. The obvious: Squirtle NEEDS to avoid fatigue. It's just like you say, Squirtle is completely incapable of success in fatigue. However, I feel differently about the other two Pokemon when they are beset by fatigue.

Ivysaur has an amazing defense, as you say. In my opinion, fatigue should not hinder anything of Ivy's EXCEPT the kncok-outs, which can be worked around. Firstly, Ivysaur has Bullet Seed. There's nothing that says you are incapable of using Bullet Seed at higher percentages, and I often do it if I am fatigued. However, more important is the fact that Ivysaur's defense is not affected by fatigue. Even if you have to deal with fatigue, you can go about playing your own defensive game to counter-act your opponent's, and versus most characters, yours will be more effective. You can live a surprisingly long time if you are very careful with Ivysaur.

Charizard has similar traits, in this regard. The reason I think Charizard is so effective is because it combines smaller doses of Ivysaur's defense and Squirtle's offensive nature, giving you the ability to do both. Charizard is difficult to KO because of hsi weight. He has a powerful move for causing damage in the form of Rock Smash, and Flamethrower can help do smaller percents if your opponent blindly approaches you or has a bad recovery (Link, Olimar, etc.) But, in addition, I never have a very difficult time KOing with a fatigued Charizard. In total honesty, I allow Charizard to remain out UNTIL he is KO'd, for obvious reasons in regard to Squirtle. Yes, you will have to put in more effort, but I don't think it's as much as you make it seem. Charizard is still capable at killing at 170% with his Down-throw, only about 40% more than normal. This is only a few Rock Smashes, about five or six tilts, etc. Charizard is also capable of killing at much lower percentages, even in fatigue, with his spike.

Your last point is probably the most important flaw the PT has, and there is very little you can do about it. However, outright stalling is often called in tournaments, so that shouldn't be a large problem. And while there is a Pokemon that is often countered by the opponent, there is no need to use that Pokemon for a prolonged period of time. Especially if you are anticipating such an action, I would allow the Pokemon that comes prior in the switching order to the disadvantaged Pokemon to remain out as long as possible, building enough damage for the next one to use a quick launch and escape. Throws are also very powerful tools for switching, even in fatigue. When you are in fatigue, you MUST switch to a defensive game. It's the only way you will ever find an opening to switch (Assuming you want to).

You make good points, but I think you sell the fatigued Pokemon short. Yes, you need to put in more effort. But you make it out as if it were impossible.

About the fatigue, I understand where you're coming from completely; I thought about the same thing while putting this together. However, the thing is, it still puts them at a disadvantage. Their DAMAGE is nothing to worry about. However, it'll take some time to get their damage up and send them away. This presents a problem, especially when facing aggressive players. I'm not saying that you're totally helpless. I'm moreso saying that your opponent will rack up damage and kill you much more easily. Pokemon Change is just such a flawed move that it's hard to find an opening most of the time, especially when fatigued. I guess the way I said it just kind of came out wrong; I'll change it around.


EDIT: Changes have been made to the original post.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Personally, I think that you are trying to sell short PT based on tactical problems. Regarding fatigue, the way that I believe PT should be played is in a very quick manner. Meaning that you should switch out often not only to avoid fatigue, but to change your playstyle up. For example, let us say that you start off with squirtle. You use him to run around, be the little ninja he is, throwing your opponent off balance, and then when they adapt and either start to camp or start to play much more aggresively, you switch to Ivysaur, whom you can use to either knockout, or camp with. Ivysaur has the strongest up smash in the game, and has the largest variety of moves to keep an opponenet at range (Neutral B, forward B, up B, grabs, up smash, f smash, bair, ftilt), and at the same time can play an extremely aggressive game with success as well. Charizard is the tank, and with his huge hitboxes and the fastest run speed of the three, he can make a good gimper/chaser as well.

The point is, is that PT can be in the lower section of the higher tiers simply because he can counter playstyle with any pokemon. Granted not as effectively as each other, or as some characters, but still, the point stands.

 

[Demenise]

Personally, I think that you are trying to sell short PT based on tactical problems. Regarding fatigue, the way that I believe PT should be played is in a very quick manner. Meaning that you should switch out often not only to avoid fatigue, but to change your playstyle up. For example, let us say that you start off with squirtle. You use him to run around, be the little ninja he is, throwing your opponent off balance, and then when they adapt and either start to camp or start to play much more aggresively, you switch to Ivysaur, whom you can use to either knockout, or camp with. Ivysaur has the strongest up smash in the game, and has the largest variety of moves to keep an opponenet at range (Neutral B, forward B, up B, grabs, up smash, f smash, bair, ftilt), and at the same time can play an extremely aggressive game with success as well. Charizard is the tank, and with his huge hitboxes and the fastest run speed of the three, he can make a good gimper/chaser as well.

The point is, is that PT can be in the lower section of the higher tiers simply because he can counter playstyle with any pokemon. Granted not as effectively as each other, or as some characters, but still, the point stands.

If you make the switching without getting hit, then good for you. However, should you be switching all of the time? Let's take the same example that you gave above with the Squirtle. From the Squirtle, your opponent may adapt to your playstyle and play more DEFENSIVE to counter your playstyle. Then, you switch to Ivy, who also plays defensively. Your opponent starts to play AGGRESSIVELY to counter your playstyle. So, you switch out to Charizard. Your opponent then mixes up their game to counter your current tactic. See what I mean? Your opponent can adapt to a playstyle very quickly and counter that playstyle. The thing is, while your opponent may be decent with every playstyle, each Pokemon is only good with one. Therefore, if your opponent learns to counter a specific Pokemon's playstyle, then you're forced to switch out or deal with the disadvantage.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Oh...and I think the one reason that I will admit PT will always be low tier is because nobody wants to practice 3 characters when it is soooo much easier and less time consuming to play with one

If you make the switching without getting hit, then good for you. However, should you be switching all of the time? Let's take the same example that you gave above with the Squirtle. From the Squirtle, your opponent may adapt to your playstyle and play more DEFENSIVE to counter your playstyle. Then, you switch to Ivy, who also plays defensively. Your opponent starts to play AGGRESSIVELY to counter your playstyle. So, you switch out to Charizard. Your opponent then mixes up their game to counter your current tactic. See what I mean? Your opponent can adapt to a playstyle very quickly and counter that playstyle. The thing is, while your opponent may be decent with every playstyle, each Pokemon is only good with one. Therefore, if your opponent learns to counter a specific Pokemon's playstyle, then you're forced to switch out or deal with the disadvantage.

I guess when it comes down to that, what really matters is who you are playing. Against a GDorf, he is going to have a hard time matching you pace for pace, but against a Marth player, that would be a huge problem.

 

[Demenise]

I guess when it comes down to that, what really matters is who you are playing. Against a GDorf, he is going to have a hard time matching you pace for pace, but against a Marth player, that would be a huge problem.

Good point. However, in an actual tournament, I assure you, you'll see many more Marths than you will Ganons. =P

 

[JiangWei23]

As a PT mainer, I have to say that I sadly agree with Demenise. The way Pokemon Change was set up, coupled with fatigue, makes it an uphill battle for PT. I've actually encountered the very situation that Demenise laid out; that my friends just stall until I get fatigued and have to switch...right into a charged-up Smash attack.

Not to say PT is completely hopeless. Don't get me wrong, I love PT to death, and I still even play the Pokemon games now. I plan to main him for a long, long time. A PT has to know "the ins and outs" of Pokemon battling, and I have faith that PT will still be a solid character choice.

I still think one of the crippling things that keeps PT in the lower theoretical tiers is Pokemon Change. Just think how amazing PT would be if you could use Pokemon Change in the air, or if Pokemon Change granted you invincibility frames rivaling respawning invincibility frames. Fatigue and the lag between changing Pokemon wouldn't be that big a deal if the aforementioned were possible, IMO.

Flawed as it is, Pokemon Change can lead to some interesting lulz. I love it when curses shoot around the room when I successfully dodge a Dragoon hit, or how my gf was exasperated when I first started playing PT since she thought that the Pokeball was a Pokeball item and tried picking it up...

------------------

I'd like to get the board's opinion on fatigue, though. What do you think would happen to PT's metagame and placement in tiers if:

(1) Fatigue was extended to only taking place after, say, three minutes

OR

(2) Fatigue was nonexistent

 

[JiangWei23]

Random question: Does fatigue stack with move decay? I've never really paid that much attention to this thought while battling, but if it does this worries me.

 

[Demenise]

Random question: Does fatigue stack with move decay? I've never really paid that much attention to this thought while battling, but if it does this worries me.

I believe so. Just tested it with Squirtle's Nair, which according to Card's guide, should do 6% when fatigued. After using it many times, it only did 3% on contact. Expected, but still not a good sign.

 

[Onxy]

Let them stall and fatigue your pokemon. You can still fight when your fatigued, and try to get in as much damage while he is stalling. Show him that you can't run away from squirtle! Or Ivy! Or Charizard!

 

[Charizard92]

There is a way around the fatigue get away problem. Once you KO an opponent, get away from the center and change as fast as you can. Even if they are fast enough, they won't be able to use a full charged smash because by the time the smash attack starts, the vulnerability frames are over a few moments ago.

 

[Demenise]

Let them stall and fatigue your pokemon. You can still fight when your fatigued, and try to get in as much damage while he is stalling. Show him that you can't run away from squirtle! Or Ivy! Or Charizard!

You can still fight, you just can't fight well. That's a huge problem, because if the opponent knows that you're weaker, they're more tempted to pummel you, and you'll do less to them.

There is a way around the fatigue get away problem. Once you KO an opponent, get away from the center and change as fast as you can. Even if they are fast enough, they won't be able to use a full charged smash because by the time the smash attack starts, the vulnerability frames are over a few moments ago.

Yes, but sometimes, it's difficult to KO an opponent then change, considering that you're weakened. Plus, an uncharged smash is still a smash. It can still hurt. It can still kill.

 

[Blackbelt]

Yeah, PT has alot of things going against.


And yet I don't really care, because it's still PT to me.

 

[Charizard92]

Directly after the KO you (put insult here). Sorry, I had to say that. This is how it works, once You gimp someone to a KO as Squirtle get back onto the stage and switch. even if the opponent is Sonic they can't get in fast enough for a charged smash, and it would be really hard to perfectly land an uncharged one in the few second time frame. Best results if you don't switch to Squirtle.

 

[infernovia]

I believe the current PT was not implemented well, and here are my reasons why:

a) Fatigue is stupid. I understand what they are aiming for here, but think about it for a minute. Pokemon trainers exist to fight each other (more or less), why are these warriors the only ones that get tired in 2 mins? If their knockback was powerful before fatigue, perhaps this would be balanced, but its not. Instead, we get three average characters that get pathetic.

b) Pokemon Change. The cool thing about being a PT is you get to change the pokemon according to what the situation requires. As such, you should be able to switch between either pokemon with change rather than the loop. I understand that the designers really want to emphasize the team aspect of PT, but it should not be forced and more or less left up to the user.

These two factors combined makes the tactical benefit of having 3 characters in one completely worthless. PT is basically getting a nerf for no reason.

The concept of fatigue should have been more like, you aren't allowed to switch to a pokemon once they die for 30 secs or 1 min. Pokemon switch should allow you to skip one step. I think thats all that needs to be done. The fact that you switch automatically when dying should be enough for the whole team play hting.

 

[Demenise]

Directly after the KO you (put insult here). Sorry, I had to say that. This is how it works, once You gimp someone to a KO as Squirtle get back onto the stage and switch. even if the opponent is Sonic they can't get in fast enough for a charged smash, and it would be really hard to perfectly land an uncharged one in the few second time frame. Best results if you don't switch to Squirtle.

Assuming you're not fatigued and can easily get the KO, of course. If you're a fatigued Squirtle, for an example, I'll never know how you ever would get the KO in the first place. Also, there's always that chance of them being able to come back and smash you. There's enough vulnerability for a respawn smash, y'know.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

The fastest way to pokemon change is to press down+b then pause the game for the character to load. And if they yell cheater, tell them something was in your eye and you had to pause.

 

[Charizard92]

Assuming you're not fatigued and can easily get the KO, of course. If you're a fatigued Squirtle, for an example, I'll never know how you ever would get the KO in the first place. Also, there's always that chance of them being able to come back and smash you. There's enough vulnerability for a respawn smash, y'know.

Yeah, that is always a Problem, which is why Squirtle is meant to gimp.

 

[infernovia]

The fastest way to pokemon change is to press down+b then pause the game for the character to load. And if they yell cheater, tell them something was in your eye and you had to pause.

I am really wondering why they didn't just load the character models from the beginning like in melee. Is it cuz of internets?

 

[Yukiwarashi]

The fastest way to pokemon change is to press down+b then pause the game for the character to load. And if they yell cheater, tell them something was in your eye and you had to pause.

Genius. XD I love it. Too bad it won't work all of the time.

Anyhow, I hate to say it, but I also agree with the TC. I've never really been one of the "Pokemon Trainer is a high tier character" people, because I know he isn't. Nonetheless, I do feel that it's possible for a Pokemon Trainer player to be extremely well. Somewhere out there is a player that knows all three Pokemon extremely well, and he or she will make the best of what they've got, fatigue and forced switching and all. I'm hoping to be one of those players, and I'm sure others are like that too. So who cares about a tier list? Let's just work on getting Pokemon Trainer some much needed representation in the first place.

 

[Demenise]

The fastest way to pokemon change is to press down+b then pause the game for the character to load. And if they yell cheater, tell them something was in your eye and you had to pause.

Good strategy, but I'm not sure if tournaments would allow that. =P

Yeah, that is always a Problem, which is why Squirtle is meant to gimp.

When fatigued, though, if you're against a Meta Knight or something, I doubt that you'll get him far enough away where he won't come back. Against characters like Link, though, you're right, gimping is easy even with fatigue. Plus, while he's falling to his death, you have time to change.

 

[Onxy]

Meta Knight beats up the whole cast with the exception of a couple. That's why I don't bother with tournaments 'cause I don't want to feel the wrath of broken characters.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Tiers: Why it's pointless to act sure of anything regarding them at this point

I get that most of you weren't around when the Melee metagame was being shaped, so I cannot blame you all for not learning from the past.

The game has been out for four months.

Stamina may end up being an insurmountable Achille's heel for PT, or it may end up being the one weakness to balance out what may have then developed to be a top tier character. Anywhere between those two ends of the spectrum might house PT once it's all said and done, but acting as if you are sure of the outcome is like building an earthquake shelter.

Ganondorf was considered one of the best characters in early melee, mostly because he had amazing priority, range, and power that seemed difficult to overcome given the limited knowledge had at the time. Peach was considered terrible because she seemed slow compared to other characters, until it was discovered that she was unique enough to warrant her own completely different playstyle, and people discovered her priority, how safe it was to attack using float canceling, and how great turnips were for spam. Falco was another case, where everyone swore he would never reach top because he had the worst recovery in the game, a disadvantage that seemed to most huge enough to warrant dismissing him from the top tier.

None of these cases is the same as PT, but the principle is the same. Speculate all you want, but making unjustifiably confident statements only sets you up for future ridicule. For the record, I don't care what tier PT ends up in, since I believe a low placement will ultimately be the result of not many people playing him seriously in tournaments and whatnot, as opposed to lack of merit as a character.

 

[Fearmy]

it's not really the fatiuge, it's the Diminshing Effect + Fatiuge. and there is no fatiuge as long as you space and switch, down b is switch for a reason, you can always space with squirtles D throw.

 

[Hydde]

The problem is that in some matches u simply dont want to switch because u are doing fine... and u know that if u switch.. ull have a high chance of not do so well against that particular character.... the bad thing is that u have to change anyways, and pray that ur next poke will deliver

hey fearmy add me to ur friend list to play some matches online.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Personally I have no problems with fatigue, but it may have been the reason that I lost 3 lives to 0 when I first picked him up.

 

[Charizard92]

It seriously takes more than two minutes to KO a meta knight? Look, if I didn't make it clear, You don't rack up as many KOs as you can as one Pokemon, You KO with one Pokemon once, and then Immediately switch. It is too early to call, and P. Trainer can go into the upper tier or even top as soon as his weaknesses are balanced out and overlooked by a crowd larger than a handful of people. Right now, we may be the only people who don't care about stamina as much or at all. Once the amount of people in the Smash community outside of the people who are posting in this thread group realize his potential, he won't be low, or even bottom tier.

 

[chubas]

it's not really the fatiuge, it's the Diminshing Effect + Fatiuge. and there is no fatiuge as long as you space and switch, down b is switch for a reason, you can always space with squirtles D throw.

That's right. I don't see fatigue too bad, the real PT problem is switching. Because switching gives you no fatigue AND no diminishing, so it's a great plus in PT. But, sadly, switch is too difficult, I think PT mainers should focus on how to switch effectively on the right moments.

I still have faith in PT going to the mid tiers, but to be honest I see it difficult. But I will never change my PT =]

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Love how my post was ignored.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

PT should stand in midle tier, because his great plus is also his major disadvantage, you can fiht as you want, and you have more probabilities to adapt to a particular fight tha your oponent, but you can not paly the same way all the battle because of stamina and diminishing effect, and to avoid that you gotta switch, what makes you vulnerable, but i always find a space for my switch, its a lot easier in 2 peolpe matches that in free for all. Also i dont care too much for stamina, normally o forget to change until im in too hight percent to switch XD. sometimes i just fight a stock with each pokemon, and it has worked great for me

 

[Demenise]

I get that most of you weren't around when the Melee metagame was being shaped, so I cannot blame you all for not learning from the past.

The game has been out for four months.

Stamina may end up being an insurmountable Achille's heel for PT, or it may end up being the one weakness to balance out what may have then developed to be a top tier character. Anywhere between those two ends of the spectrum might house PT once it's all said and done, but acting as if you are sure of the outcome is like building an earthquake shelter.

Ganondorf was considered one of the best characters in early melee, mostly because he had amazing priority, range, and power that seemed difficult to overcome given the limited knowledge had at the time. Peach was considered terrible because she seemed slow compared to other characters, until it was discovered that she was unique enough to warrant her own completely different playstyle, and people discovered her priority, how safe it was to attack using float canceling, and how great turnips were for spam. Falco was another case, where everyone swore he would never reach top because he had the worst recovery in the game, a disadvantage that seemed to most huge enough to warrant dismissing him from the top tier.

None of these cases is the same as PT, but the principle is the same. Speculate all you want, but making unjustifiably confident statements only sets you up for future ridicule. For the record, I don't care what tier PT ends up in, since I believe a low placement will ultimately be the result of not many people playing him seriously in tournaments and whatnot, as opposed to lack of merit as a character.

You raise a good point, which I'll state right now: the fact that it's three Pokemon in one opens a lot of possibilities for the future. That means that, in the future, there'll be about three times as many advanced technique for this character above others.

It seriously takes more than two minutes to KO a meta knight? Look, if I didn't make it clear, You don't rack up as many KOs as you can as one Pokemon, You KO with one Pokemon once, and then Immediately switch. It is too early to call, and P. Trainer can go into the upper tier or even top as soon as his weaknesses are balanced out and overlooked by a crowd larger than a handful of people. Right now, we may be the only people who don't care about stamina as much or at all. Once the amount of people in the Smash community outside of the people who are posting in this thread group realize his potential, he won't be low, or even bottom tier.

I'm changing the topic title right now, so you know. I really meant this to be (as stated at the end of the first post) a thread to put down people who believe that he has massive amounts of undiscovered potential. Everyone may be pissed at me when they can't find the thread, but who cares? =P

Anyway, let's say that you're Squirtle playing against a good Meta Knight. You attack constantly, missing many attacks. For each attack launched, your stamina drops. Therefore, it's always less than two minutes. If you're playing a good Meta Knight, then it's possible that he'll live for over two minutes.

Also, I'm going to contradict pretty much everything that I ever said: stamina is not that bad. I don't find it a problem at all. However, I'm looking towards the future. Once the metagame evolves, new tactics will be found and enemies might live longer, making stamina a big deal.

 

[Retro Gaming]

However, I'm looking towards the future. Once the metagame evolves, new tactics will be found and enemies might live longer, making stamina a big deal.

This goes right along with what Pope said. It's too early to know how things are going to develop speaking from a now perspective. In addition, if the metagame around us develops, it's also very possible that we ourselves will develop.

 

[Demenise]

This goes right along with what Pope said. It's too early to know how things are going to develop speaking from a now perspective. In addition, if the metagame around us develops, it's also very possible that we ourselves will develop.

Possibly. However, if new techniques develop, such as a new Wavedash-esque type method, we'll just have someone sliding around all day, avoiding all of the blows. If new techniques of manipulation are presented to us, then we'll gain a major weakness over others.

 

[Retro Gaming]

This is all "if," though. They're just speculation. I could speculate that we'll find easy to execute, almost unavoidable 0-to-death combo's on all of the Pokemon. I speculate we'll find a way to switch in fatigue as if we were not in fatigue. It doesn't really mean anything, though.

Wavedashing was prominent in Melee, but it didn't stop people from all-together failing to execute hits. Plus, there's nothing that says PT can't use it, unless it's a character specific technique. What then? There's too many unknowns. Just play him out and see how it goes. =/

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

There are two sides of every coin. Wavedash in melee could be used to avoid hits, and it could be used to close gaps and land hits. It could make matches longer or shorter, depending on the character used, the stage, etc.

I don't know why I posted this.

 

[Charizard92]

I don't know why I even looked at this thread again!