Pokemon Trainer vs Ness

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Ness may suffer a major weakness from having 10 more frames of no action after a grab realese, but don't let that fool you. He has one heck of an air game with Fair being A great move. His grab game is also a good one, with a Bthrow that can KO very well.

 

[Magik0722]

CharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizardCharizard

 

[Steeler]

squirtle has a grab release chain as well so...

 

[NintenJoe]

Zard has a deathgrab, Squirtle has a chaingrab, and Ivysaur sucks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Zard has a deathgrab, Squirtle has a chaingrab, and Ivysaur sucks.

You have this backwards.

Squirtle's chaingrab only moves him forward a pixel or two, so it's much more of a deathgrab than Charizard, who moves a good deal forward for each grab.

 

[Uffe]

I'll be back. I'm going to ask a few people about this match up myself. I've got some things I might say myself seeing I've played Pokemon Trainer more than enough to determine the outcome. If you guys could, though, avoid talking about death grabs and easy gimps. That doesn't determine the match up and both are fairly situational. I'll be back.

Also, use this picture instead. It's far more superior than that old Melee image everybody uses. XD

Ness

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That doesn't determine the match up and both are fairly situational. I'll be back.

Ness

Squirtle and Charizard have among the best grabs in the game. One grab equals death with Squirtle. It doesn't determine the matchup for Charizard, but it certainly hurts it a lot, and it certainly determines it for Squirtle.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Doesn't Charizard's grab release give him like a free sweet-spotted Dtilt or something?

It might be that the Ness I played did it wrong.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doesn't Charizard's grab release give him like a free sweet-spotted Dtilt or something?

It might be that the Ness I played did it wrong.

If you buffer it, yes, you get a free sweetspotted D-Tilt. Probably a running U-Smash. Instant dash attack, too, but that's dumb and useless.

 

[Miles.]

Infinte and you win. Seriously that's the only reason FOW lost to Mike Haze I watched their set. The chaingrab and garunteed smashes turned the tide.

Also you can jab jab Upsmash or just fsmash out of grab release with Zard and if the Ness guesses wrong they are dead.

That said Ness is easy to gimp especially with watergun or just getting hit by his lighting before he can hit himself with it. (Pk hammer?...whatever)

 

[Uffe]

@ PokemonMasterIRL: Could we have a reasonable discussion instead of getting into death grabs and grab releases? And Water Gun vs Ness, not happening. If you're getting Ness with that, then that Ness needs to learn to recover properly. Especially since a Ness main should not use their PKT right away. Ness will not always land below stage level, remember that.

Anyway, from my experience, I find Squirtle to be the most threatening. And it's actually hard to say who has an advantage against Ness since all three are used. One could rack up damage and the other can go for the kill.

What can you guys tell us about your characters? Be realistic, too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What can you guys tell us about your characters? Be realistic, too.

Charizard has the greatest grab range in the game. :D

Squirtle can jump into PK Thunder easily and safely--that's how I KO'd FOW one time.

Seriously, all you have to do is wait for a grab with those two.

We can discuss Ivysaur vs. Ness if you really want to, but there's nothing to discuss about the other two, as the entire game WILL revolve around getting a grab, because that's all it takes.

 

[NintenJoe]

You have this backwards.

Squirtle's chaingrab only moves him forward a pixel or two, so it's much more of a deathgrab than Charizard, who moves a good deal forward for each grab.

either way, Ness gets ***** lol.

I don't play a PT main so I wouldn't know a lot about the match up. Considering 2 of 3 pokemon have good chaingrabs on Ness (Squirtle with almost death grab), its probably in PT's favor.

 

[Uffe]

Charizard has the greatest grab range in the game. :D

Squirtle can jump into PK Thunder easily and safely--that's how I KO'd FOW one time.

Seriously, all you have to do is wait for a grab with those two.

We can discuss Ivysaur vs. Ness if you really want to, but there's nothing to discuss about the other two, as the entire game WILL revolve around getting a grab, because that's all it takes.

A lot of people say that Marth or D3 have the greatest grab range. I'm not sure who to believe anymore. XD As for Squirtle, you did it once. Can you do it more than once, though? And was that intentional or were you trying to get him as far away from the stage as possible and accidentally got hit by his PKT? And the whole match won't revolve around their grab game because you can win without it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Actually, Charizard has the second largest non-tether grab range in the game. Squirtle's is 5th longest non-tether.

Nonetheless, let's say that hypothetically, Ness' extra grab frames are eliminated, so death grabs are no more. What would the matchup be like then?

 

[Miles.]

Squirtles grab IS longer than Marths.

Charizards grab IS longer than DDD's.

You will get grabbed and you will get gimped.

We can watergun you after you hit yourself with PKT2.

I have played Vicegrip and Saw ALL FOWs matches at genesis.

I am Ness and a FOW fanboy, but I am just being realistic.

We can chaingrab you to Kill Moves with both characters.

 

[Uffe]

I'm aware you can CG, thanks. Let's look passed that, though. Also, why is it whenever people discuss Ness, the first thing they think of is, "We can gimp you." If this continues, I'm out.

 

[Tien2500]

So... are Charizard/Squirtles grabs legal in most tourneys? I know alot including Genesis banned Dedede's standing infinites (including his walking infinite against Bowser) so I would guess that a good deal would also ban Charizard/Squirtles.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Meh, maybe.

I would like to see what the Matchup is without those deathgrabs though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So... are Charizard/Squirtles grabs legal in most tourneys? I know alot including Genesis banned Dedede's standing infinites (including his walking infinite against Bowser) so I would guess that a good deal would also ban Charizard/Squirtles.

Charizard's wouldn't be banned, as you inch towards the end of the stage, and you're only really doing about 30% at the most per chaingrab with him (outside of the end throw/D-Tilt/U-Smash).

 

[MrEh]

Also, why is it whenever people discuss Ness, the first thing they think of is, "We can gimp you."

In this case, the first thing people thought of was "we can CG you." This is a fact, and it wrecks. I've seen it firsthand.

That's exactly what the matchup is. Charizard or Squirtle get a grab, and Ness dies. Sad, but true.

I would like to see what the Matchup is without those deathgrabs though.

Pff, it could always be worse. Like Bowser and Dedede. lol

 

[MaTA]

to bad that band in FL


but yeah other then that charizard is fun and water gunning with squirtle is the best.

 

[Uffe]

So then why are we having this discussion? If you're going to only have death grabs, there was never any point bringing this topic up.

 

[Steeler]

well, about the water gun gimping thing. one of the main arguments i've seen nesses use is that you can just pkt(2?) low enough so that there's no way an on stage water gun can get you but even then...

squirtle can just jump out and chase you with wg. and push you into/under the stage or something. i'm not saying wg gimp happens every time ness has to pkt or even every match, but it's a real concern to the ness and affects the way he recovers a lot.

anyway i think ivysaur does fine in this matchup, to the point where you obviously would rather use the other two but if you have to use ivy, it's not a deal breaker.

aside from the grab release bull****, squirtle does pretty well against ness, i'd say a slight advantage and a charizard with the right playstyle (patient, zoning with lots of rock smash and fair which are a good answer to ness's own fair, and then looking for quick openings on the ground to dash in for a tilt or grab) is like neutral or slight advantage. but squirtle is slightly more effective and both are fine to focus on. that's just my two cents, i haven't played much ness.

 

[T-block]

Squirtle definitely gives Ness some issues. Ness can't handle Squirtle's aerial game very well... f-air helps a bit, but he just gets outmanouvered in the air. If Ness ends up in the air without his double jump Squirtle can get some juggling in... d-air and air dodge are easy to bait and punish. PKT1 is not a threat to Squirtle since he's small and it's easy to throw out a quick aerial to cancel it, and PK Fire is nowhere near good enough to hold back Squirtle. As for Water Gun... it's stupid to say Ness never gets gimped by it. It's not matchup changing maybe, but it does enhance Squirtle's edgeguard game in this matchup. I'm out now, but I'll post more on this later. Getting the WG gimp is not that rare at all.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Ivysaur is so awsome that his grab is a tether grab. So more range than all Pokémon in Smash. Too bad everyone is forgotting about him and only discussing Charizard and Squirtle.

And even more too badder is that I know almost nothing about the matchup so I can't give my Ivysaur input. =(

 

[MrEh]

So then why are we having this discussion? If you're going to only have death grabs, there was never any point bringing this topic up.

Because they wanted to discuss how much the grabs wreck.

Matchups should still be discussed, even if it seems pointless. For example, even though Dedede wrecks Bowser, we still discuss the matchup. Not discussing it would be silly.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

So.... squirtle and charizard ****
Lets discuss ivy

 

[MaTA]

stay on the stage...
dont get hit off the stage...
taunt...
maybe run away...
try something risky and die.

 

[Steeler]

Ivysaur is so awsome that his grab is a tether grab. So more range than all Pokémon in Smash. Too bad everyone is forgotting about him and only discussing Charizard and Squirtle.

ivysaur's grab has very slightly more range than zard's/ddd's and is much much slower.

 

[T-block]

Okay.

Squirtle definitely gives Ness some issues. Ness can't handle Squirtle's aerial game very well... f-air helps a bit, but he just gets outmanouvered in the air. If Ness ends up in the air without his double jump Squirtle can get some juggling in... d-air and air dodge are easy to bait and punish. PKT1 is not a threat to Squirtle since he's small and it's easy to throw out a quick aerial to cancel it. As for Water Gun... it's stupid to say Ness never gets gimped by it. It's not matchup changing maybe, but it does enhance Squirtle's edgeguard game in this matchup.

Basically, if Ness is ever even slightly off the stage (out of edgegrab range) without his double jump, he is at a very high risk of getting WG'd. When I edgeguard Ness, my main goal is to get him off the stage after his double jump. Sure it's not guaranteed by any means, but when all you have to do is push him off the stage as opposed to push him far from the stage, it's a pretty scary edgeguard game Squirtle's got in this matchup. Shield the double jump f-air and hit him back out with OoS n-air. Jab combo, f-tilt, f-air, b-air, n-air all work pretty well to send Ness back out after his double jump. If Ness tries to recover from below, we can try to jump into the PKT, hit him with a b-air, or reverse WG. We can play it safer too and edgehog. If Ness goes past us, ledgehop d-air to send him back out and reset the position.

Really all I'm trying to say is that Squirtle gimping Ness should not be called "situational". It's a very real threat, and it definitely should be considered in the matchup. I do agree that the deathgrab for Squirtle, on most stages, is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be.... he doesn't have the followups that Charizard has. You cannot simply dismiss an aspect of the matchup as big as edgeguarding though. Even if you were to do so, Squirtle still has a decent advantage. I'd say 65:35 at least.

Ivysaur vs. Ness I consider about even...maybe more in Ness' favour. Bullet Seed isn't all that useful. Most of Ness' moves don't leave him open to be punished by it, and Ness is small and light. Ivy's terrible airspeed and lack of quick aerials can make him somewhat susceptible to being juggled, but I haven't had huge issues with it. Ness' f-throw near the edge is bad news for Ivy. That being said, Ivy doesn't do horribly... b-air helps a lot I find. I don't really use Ivy all that much against Ness tbh...I usually rely on the other two more. 45:55ish

Charizard... first thing that comes to mind is PKT juggling, which can be really annoying on a stage like Battlefield. Other than that Charizard does pretty well. One grab usually does mean death at higher percents (that's all I'll say about it Uffe...promise xP). He's got the range to go against Ness... Rock Smash is amazing here. Space to hit with the outermost shard and it'll be very hard for Ness to punish any of them. Short bursts of Flamethrower can't be PSI Magnet'd without prediction, and a mispredict means free grab. 60:40, but that's being kinda conservative. I think Squirtle does better than Charizard here.

 

[Steeler]

i agree with t block on pretty much everything, particularly squirtle slightly > charizard and ivy doesn't really matter since the other two do fine.

 

[AvariceX]

Ness is the second (arguably third) hardest character in the game to grab. Ness is no more gimpable than Diddy.

I haven't even read this discussion; I just read the previous discussion this board had on Ness a while ago and felt this should be contributed before this discussion goes too far.

 

[Uffe]

I can agree with a lot of what t-block wrote and that was the sort of discussion I was looking for. The match up ratios, not so much however. From my experience with different Pokemon Trainers, Squirtle was mainly the difficult one, Charizard being next and the Ivysaur, not so much. Personally I'd say Squirtle is 60:40, Charizard 55:45 and Ivysaur 50:50 if not 45:55 Ness' favor.

Characters like Marth, Meta Knight King DeDeDe and R.O.B. are all 60:40 their favor and I have a much more difficult time fighting those three than Charizard. I might be wrong about D3, but yeah. Charizard has some mean attacks, but I wouldn't really see it as 60:40 his favor. So again, here's my thought on the ratios between Pokemon Trainer vs Ness.

Squirtle - 60:40 Squirtle
Charizard - 55:45 Charizard
Ivysaur - 50:50/55:45 Ness

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Characters like Marth, Meta Knight King DeDeDe and R.O.B. are all 60:40 their favor and I have a much more difficult time fighting those three than Charizard. I might be wrong about D3, but yeah. Charizard has some mean attacks, but I wouldn't really see it as 60:40 his favor. So again, here's my thought on the ratios between Pokemon Trainer vs Ness.

Squirtle - 60:40 Squirtle
Charizard - 55:45 Charizard
Ivysaur - 50:50/55:45 Ness

Are we still pretending that the chaingrabs have very little effect on the match, by the way?

 

[_clinton]

Squirtle definitely gives Ness some issues. Ness can't handle Squirtle's aerial game very well... f-air helps a bit, but he just gets outmanouvered in the air.

Yes...because Ness' only defensive move in the air is Fair...Nair is by far better at in your face defense IMO...but whatever...

If Ness ends up in the air without his double jump Squirtle can get some juggling in... d-air and air dodge are easy to bait and punish. PKT1 is not a threat to Squirtle since he's small and it's easy to throw out a quick aerial to cancel it. As for Water Gun... it's stupid to say Ness never gets gimped by it. It's not matchup changing maybe, but it does enhance Squirtle's edgeguard game in this matchup.

Fine we are talking about Ness being gimped just fine...what about Squirtle? Ness isn't lacking in the area of gimping others...

Ivysaur vs. Ness I consider about even...maybe more in Ness' favour. Bullet Seed isn't all that useful. Most of Ness' moves don't leave him open to be punished by it, and Ness is small and light.

Ness is a small medium weight character actually...

Ivy's terrible airspeed and lack of quick aerials can make him somewhat susceptible to being juggled, but I haven't had huge issues with it. Ness' f-throw near the edge is bad news for Ivy. That being said, Ivy doesn't do horribly... b-air helps a lot I find.

DI right when it comes to Fthrow...it shouldn't be bad news...Ness pummeling you til you drop low is worse news IMO...

And there really isn't much Ivysaur can do to out range Ness...if you try to play just out side of Ness' range with certain keep away moves to annoy a Ness...someone could just throw out PK Thunder or some aerial PK Fire trick and hit you during the down time of said move and throw off your pattern

Charizard... first thing that comes to mind is PKT juggling, which can be really annoying on a stage like Battlefield. Other than that Charizard does pretty well. One grab usually does mean death at higher percents (that's all I'll say about it Uffe...promise xP).

In all fairness a grab is death at high % as well when it comes to things like Ness' Bthrow...

He's got the range to go against Ness... Rock Smash is amazing here. Space to hit with the outermost shard and it'll be very hard for Ness to punish any of them. Short bursts of Flamethrower can't be PSI Magnet'd without prediction, and a mispredict means free grab. 60:40, but that's being kinda conservative. I think Squirtle does better than Charizard here.

Again on spacing...Ness has the tools to screw with it...hell even his double jump is great with spacing and the various ranges it gives in use...and PSI magnet is pure BS when it comes to Flamethrower IMO...a quick burst is worth only about 12% of damage...if you get all 4 parts...

I think Ness will gimp said Fire/Flying Dragon pokemon better than Charizard will...but that is just me...

Are we still pretending that the chaingrabs have very little effect on the match, by the way?

All 3 have annoying ones that force Ness to a more limited play style when it comes to fighting said three characters...

 

[PKNintendo]

Are we still pretending that the chaingrabs have very little effect on the match, by the way?

Unfortunately...

Hey, weren't you a Wario main! Dude you were famous!

I did NOT know that Squirtle infinited Ness. Just goes to show you huh? And it's better than Charizard?!?

Sorry Ness mains but if this is true Ness has NO chance against PT. 2 characters that can infinite you?!? And they are good grabbers?!?

FFFTFFT!!!

i agree with t block on pretty much everything, particularly squirtle slightly > charizard and ivy doesn't really matter since the other two do fine.

No love for Ivy?

 

[NintenJoe]

I'm going to have to say:

50:50 or 55:45 Ness on Ivysaur
Rationale: They can easily gimp eachother, but Ness can gimp better.

60:40 or so Charizard on Ness
Rationale: Ness is better in the air than Charizard. Charizard is better on the ground. Charizard's average aerial mobility will allow him to gimp Ness but not as well as Squirtle. Charizard has a huge grab range and a grab will get Ness a good amount of damage.

65:35 or so Squirtle on Ness
Rationale: Squirtle's aerial mobility is better than Ness', but Ness' Fair has more priority and range than Squirtle's aerials so I say it's about even in the air. On the ground, however, Squirtle doesn't have much trouble getting to Ness and getting a grab. Squirtle's grab + Ness = Death. Off the stage, watergun and good aerial mobility are easy ways for Squirtle to gimp Ness.

 

[T-block]

I can agree with a lot of what t-block wrote and that was the sort of discussion I was looking for. The match up ratios, not so much however. From my experience with different Pokemon Trainers, Squirtle was mainly the difficult one, Charizard being next and the Ivysaur, not so much. Personally I'd say Squirtle is 60:40, Charizard 55:45 and Ivysaur 50:50 if not 45:55 Ness' favor.

Characters like Marth, Meta Knight King DeDeDe and R.O.B. are all 60:40 their favor and I have a much more difficult time fighting those three than Charizard. I might be wrong about D3, but yeah. Charizard has some mean attacks, but I wouldn't really see it as 60:40 his favor. So again, here's my thought on the ratios between Pokemon Trainer vs Ness.

Squirtle - 60:40 Squirtle
Charizard - 55:45 Charizard
Ivysaur - 50:50/55:45 Ness

I think we're taking matchup numbers a bit too seriously. With the way we discuss matchups, the numbers don't really reflect the chances of a character to win as much as they give an idea of where the advantage lies. Fair enough, if you consider Marth 60:40 then go ahead and put Squirtle at 60:40. All I meant by those numbers is that Squirtle has a sizeable advantage - Charizard does too, but slightly less of one, and Ivysaur is near even...probably slightly disadvantaged.

Fine we are talking about Ness being gimped just fine...what about Squirtle? Ness isn't lacking in the area of gimping others...

I won't deny that. If Squirtle is forced to recover low it puts him in danger of taking a meteor to the face. How many of Ness' moves send Squirtle out horizontally though? I can't think of any at the moment. Squirtle is easy to gimp only if he's recovering from below the edge. If he's got height to work with, he actually has a lot of options in his aerials, water gun, and waterfall too with its massive hitbox. Squirtle can edgeguard much more effectively no matter where Ness recovers from.

Ness is a small medium weight character actually...

My bad. Then he gets hurt slightly more by Bullet Seed than I thought <_< Still not much of a factor in this matchup imo.

DI right when it comes to Fthrow...it shouldn't be bad news...Ness pummeling you til you drop low is worse news IMO...

It's the same idea...all you have to do is get Ivysaur off the edge without his double jump and then he's in trouble. It's not a guaranteed kill or anything, but any move that can put Ivysaur that far off the edge at 0% can't be a good thing. Pummel releasing would probably hurt more, but it's a lot more common for the grab to occur somewhere still on the stage as opposed to over the edge.

And there really isn't much Ivysaur can do to out range Ness...if you try to play just out side of Ness' range with certain keep away moves to annoy a Ness...someone could just throw out PK Thunder or some aerial PK Fire trick and hit you during the down time of said move and throw off your pattern

Agreed. Again, I don't play the Ivysaur matchup a whole lot, but when I do I usually play it carefully. If Ness plays defensively (f-air ) it can be pretty hard to get in.

In all fairness a grab is death at high % as well when it comes to things like Ness' Bthrow...

Yeah, but we're talking about the Charizard matchup now. Grab -> b-throw at the edge will kill at what...120%? Grab by Charizard, even at the middle of the stage, means death at like...90%.

Again on spacing...Ness has the tools to screw with it...hell even his double jump is great with spacing and the various ranges it gives in use...and PSI magnet is pure BS when it comes to Flamethrower IMO...a quick burst is worth only about 12% of damage...if you get all 4 parts...

Have you ever tried getting well-spaced Rock Smashes. The double-jump can give you a quick swing in to get an attack in, but the rock explodes on frame 3 if you hit it. Between the time that the last shard disappears and the time the next rock can explode, it's not easy to get in if you consider it's not a given that we're going to Rock Smash again right away.

I think Ness will gimp said Fire/Flying Dragon pokemon better than Charizard will...but that is just me...

It's debateable... Charizard's one sweetspot f-air edgeguard is a stock, and his d-air has a deceptively large hitbox too. I could be wrong, but I think the no-knockback part of f-air could eat the PKT and leave you in helpless state.... I've done it to Lucas. How would you edgeguard Charizard? (not rhetorical) I suppose he does make a rather large target for b-air x.x

 

[Uffe]

Are we still pretending that the chaingrabs have very little effect on the match, by the way?

The Marth match up is 60:40 without the CG, what do you think? If you want the CGs in there, then keep those numbers. But you guys make it sound easier said than done. Knowing what the other characters are capable of, I'm sure the other player would do their best to avoid that. You guys keep talking about the CGs and yet that doesn't stop someone like FICTION in tournaments with his Wario and we know most of the roster can do grab release combos on him.

I know we're not discussing Marth or Wario, but let's be real.