Pokemon Trainer vs Bowser

[dre_89_]

No I wasn't asking if it could kill him, I was asking if it could be used to switch safely.

 

[Miles.]

Ivysaurs tippered downsmash raps bowser.

 

[anax4aero]

I think people have got to remember it's Bowser vs. PT in general, not Bowser vs. each of his pokemon. What I mean is people say things like Squirtle can own him in the air, but can't KO him, well that shouldn't really affect the matchup because Squirtle doesn't have to be the one who KOs him, so it's not as if that is a real problem in the matchup.

Sorry if that didn't make sense.

Makes sense, but it's somewhat of a risk to do that mainly because the time it takes to PC could be used for more efficient attacks.
For example, you could raise % with squirtle, send him far and then switch and kill with Ivy. But it'll take more effort not to die with lightweight Squirtle, you'll be raising percentage not to kill but to switch, and then with Ivy you'll have to be careful not to get grabbed. Meanwhile, you could just go from the beginning with Zard and kill after raising percentage instead of wasting time and effort switching.
Even if due to fatigue you're eventually forced to use squirtle and ivy, it's probably much easier to do when you're on the defensive with a stock advantage.

 

[Bestiarius]

Wait, if Ivysaur doesn't get infinited, wouldn't he be best for this match?

 

[Charizard92]

I think people have got to remember it's Bowser vs. PT in general, not Bowser vs. each of his pokemon. What I mean is people say things like Squirtle can own him in the air, but can't KO him, well that shouldn't really affect the matchup because Squirtle doesn't have to be the one who KOs him, so it's not as if that is a real problem in the matchup.

Sorry if that didn't make sense.

And Charizard92, no offence but knowing Zard's moveset does not make you an expert, any PT noob would know that stuff, and if you could get 3 stocked by another PT you shouldn't really be giving advice, placing well in huge tournies makes you an expert.

Part 1: Yes, you do make sense. PT is designed to work as a whole, not as three separate characters. A simple way I remember it is that Squirtle racks up damage, Ivysaur KOs, and Charizard does both.

Part 2: OK, knowing Charizard is one thing, but also analyzing, researching, and testing Charizard is another. The second part is what I do. I haven't been three stocked. I am actually one of the better players in my area.
Unfortunately, that isn't saying much. There aren't a lot of events in my area. I also suffer from isolation problems, with none of my friends having this game, and only just recently fixing my wi-fi connection. I also haven't played Brawl for some time, and I can't start now, I'm on vacation.
I know I don't sound like I'm good or know what I'm doing, but that's because writing isn't my strongest ability. This has caused my speeches to be hit and miss. I'm better off giving advice and testing than with match ups. I am an expert not because of skill, but by testing and research.

Against Bowser, Charizard is close to even(55:45 Char). It is sort of a mexican standoff, so Charizard should focus on spacing.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

I'm an Ivysaur expert. For example, after some testing, researching, and analyzing I did I discovered that his recovery is indead easy to gimp.


Ontopic I think it's better to use Squirtle for the damage racking, Zard for the kill, and Ivy for some 1337ness and maybe damage and kill. Because Ivy can camp for damage and he has some hard to hit hardhitting moves.
He also has BS. I think Bowser is pretty weak to Nair > BS.

 

[Charizard92]

You sound like you're mocking me. If you are, I already said I have problems with writing, so please stop.

For better proof that I am an expert, just check the Charizard tactical discussion (which I made). I sound better there.

 

[CoonTail]

Not to mention why is a bowser discussion thread resulting to bashing.......how about we talk about the matchup like Charizard92 is and stop getting off topic to bash people. Man guys wtf is going on in here???

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

You sound like you're mocking me. If you are, I already said I have problems with writing, so please stop.

For better proof that I am an expert, just check the Charizard tactical discussion (which I made). I sound better there.

Uhm you're right it sounded like that, sorry. But actually I wasn't mocking you.

 

[Charizard92]

Some person questioned my knowledge so I wrote essentially my defense.
Ivy didn't make his statement sound right (I do that all the time) so I said I sounded better in the tactical discussion.

I'll write my full opinion on the match ups once I get a keyboard. (I am using my phone).

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Overall, it is a neat matchup!!! Ive only faced zigsta's pt. i kinda wanna face reflex's pt but im kinda afraid too lol

 

[Zigsta]

Ontopic I think it's better to use Squirtle for the damage racking, Zard for the kill, and Ivy for some 1337ness and maybe damage and kill. Because Ivy can camp for damage and he has some hard to hit hardhitting moves.
He also has BS. I think Bowser is pretty weak to Nair > BS.

I'd just like to point out what JayDeth posted on the first page:

Don't use Ivysaur. He may have range and power and might seem like a good idea, but Bowser has an infinite grab release on him. So if you do use Ivysaur, you had better space the **** out of your attacks.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I'd just like to point out that what JayDeth posted on the first page is completely false and that Ivysaur can easily escape by jump breaking.

 

[Steeler]

I'd just like to point out that what JayDeth posted on the first page is completely false and that Ivysaur can easily escape by jump breaking.

you are the man

phiddlestix???

more like jizzdix

 

[Zigsta]

I'd just like to point out that what JayDeth posted on the first page is completely false and that Ivysaur can easily escape by jump breaking.

This is good. Bowser's grab release stuff is crazy, haha.

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

So, does Ivysaur ACTUALLY have a chance against Bowser after all?

 

[Vermy]

Mash jump and SDI+DI away. You'll get out of it. And more than anything, don't panic. If you panice he gets a free fair out of the air release, and that'll probably get Ivy offstage = get hogged.

 

[T-block]

you can't sdi a grab release lol. if he goes for a f-air out of air release you could probably just bullet seed his ***

 

[Steeler]

well ness has to hold away from charizard for that grab release to be a chaingrab instead of an infinite.

 

[T-block]

is that considered sdi now? x.x

 

[PkTrainerCris]

i think ivy bs bowser is more like neutral
nair, ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, and of course bullet seed are all tool that ivy can use to fight nowser pretty well
and she has razor leaf, which aint that great but its better than not having a proyectile at all.....
also, i cant remember bowser having any low-angle trajectory hits, so if you DI up you may live longer than expected

 

[Tien2500]

i think ivy bs bowser is more like neutral
nair, ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, and of course bullet seed are all tool that ivy can use to fight nowser pretty well
and she has razor leaf, which aint that great but its better than not having a proyectile at all.....
also, i cant remember bowser having any low-angle trajectory hits, so if you DI up you may live longer than expected

Dtilt knocks back at a somewhat low angle.

I think its probably something like 45:55 Bowser. Bowser's pummel is not that quick so it isn't hard to force an air break. BS is harder for him to DI out of than most. Razor leaf is pretty useful too. But Bowser has a significant power advantage and a weight advantage which help put the matchup in his favor.

But Ivy should be fine if you want to use her to rack up damage and go for the KO with Zard.

 

[Toby.]

i think ivy bs bowser is more like neutral
nair, ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, and of course bullet seed are all tool that ivy can use to fight nowser pretty well
and she has razor leaf, which aint that great but its better than not having a proyectile at all.....
also, i cant remember bowser having any low-angle trajectory hits, so if you DI up you may live longer than expected

I've been wondering this for a long time now...why do you spell projectile with a 'y' instead of a 'j'? At first I thought it was a typo, but I can't remember you ever using a j. I'm no spelling nazi, just curious.

 

[Miles.]

I've been wondering this for a long time now...why do you spell projectile with a 'y' instead of a 'j'? At first I thought it was a typo, but I can't remember you ever using a j. I'm no spelling nazi, just curious.

Aussie Nazi.

 

[Steeler]

it has to do with the fact that he's from colombia.

 

[Toby.]

I never noticed he was from colombia!

Silly meeee

 

[Bestiarius]

Seriously, though, I'm the biggest grammar nazi I know.
Back to the topic at hand.
I think Ivy has a definite advantage over Boozer. It's sooooooo much fun ****** heavies with BS. I mean, that's not the only thing, but I love using Ivy against heavy characters just because BS is so ****. Razor Leaf is good for spacing, and if Bowser manages to get in close, Bullet Seed just comes out so fast against him that you can pull off at least 20%. Plus, I'm pretty sure Ivy fsmash outranges nearly everything Bowser has. And, Bowser's recovery is almost as bad as Ivy's, so I would put the match definitely in Ivy's favor. Sure, Bowser's powerful, but what's power if you can't get a move out? I go 60/40 Ivy.

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

I think you're not giving Bowser enough credit. Ivysaur's best tools in this match are his mid-range game and punishing with Bullet Seed, but if you mess up with Bullet seed/get grabbed you're up for a world of pain. Also, his recovery has invincibility frames IIRC and covers a pretty good horizontal distance, he definitely has less trouble than you would think coming back on stage. Ivy has the tools to keep him off and force a reaction and that's a big advantage against Bowser's defensive game, but he's heavy, definitely not as slow as many people think, has excellent oos options and racks up damage and kills easily.

I think this is either even or slight adv for Ivy, pretty close match-up if Ivysaur can get out of the infinite.

 

[T-block]

bowser's recovery is nowhere near as bad as ivy's lol. do we have anything confirmed about the grab release stuff yet? if it's an infinite/near-infinite that's not good for our BS punishing game. BS is still delicious though

 

[Zigsta]

According to the Bowser boards, Ivysaur can jump cancel out of the grab release, so no infinite. Bowser does, though, have a guarnateed Flying Slam (side B) and fair out of a grab release on Ivysaur. Charizard can get chaingrabbed, dash attacked, or fair'd. Squirtle can jump cancel; and he can get chaingrabbed, fair'd, Flying Slammed, or Fortress'd out of a grab release.

EDIT: The above is all when we break out of a Bowser grab via air release. Here's what we can following a ground release:

Charizard:
Grab release regrab
Grab release upb
Grab release overb
Grab release downb
Grab release utilt
Grab release ftilt
Grab release dtilt
Grab release jab

Ivysaur:
Grab release regrab
Grab release upb
Grab release overb
Grab release downb
Grab release utilt
Grab release ftilt
Grab release dtilt
Grab release jab

Squirtle:
Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release downb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

Furthermore, in order for both Ivysaur and Squirtle to ground release in the first place, we have to be button mashing as we're being pummeled. Again, this all from the Bowser grab release thread on the Bowser boards.

 

[Bestiarius]

I forgot about the grab release. I still don't think it's even; I would still have to bet on Ivy. I still think it's about 60/40 Ivy, at best 55/45 still Ivy's favor.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

LOL yeah thats because im from colombia :S.............. i still think that my english is pretty good, i cand understand anything on these boards and i have no problem on writing what i mean.... but sometimes i make mistakes like those ....
Back ontopic... i find charizard's dair, fair and bair just too easy to land on Boozer.... is it that way or is just my friend doin it wrong?

 

[T-block]

Yeah I love using b-air against fatties. So satisfying.

 

[CoonTail]

LOL no one mentioned Bowser's Up-B is just as bad as DK's against Ivy's n-air spikes so tether cancelled edge hogging to n-air spikes means bowsers got nothing but a big crying fat *** falling to his death

 

[Bestiarius]

And that would be CoonTail Spider-Mannin'!

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ivysaur and Bowser are pretty close. Bowser's Dtilt is extremely dangerous for Ivysaur, especially if he gets you as your coming up from the ledge. In that case, you're probably going to die.

Spam Nair and Bullet Seed at low percents and then use Usmash when you think he'll die. If he tries to get back on stage with Fortress then figure out where he's going and be waiting with Usmash. If he mistimes Fsmash, get him with Usmash. There's lots of moments to get him with Usmash.

 

[Darknid]

If you miss usmash you're going to get grabbed and that's probably 30% damage, and a kill if you're above 120%. Bowser infinites every character in the game except DK and ICs. However, grab release infinites are usually banned and it's also very hard to do(though against Ivy, Wario, Ness, Lucas etc. it's not hard). Basically, he grabs you, lets you release then dashgrabs you until you get to the edge, then he begins pivot grabbing you to slowly bring you back to the middle.

Now, this means he can rack up damage nicely with his grabs, especially since his Dthrow does 13% damage and comes with tech chasing(or if you DI up to avoid the tech chase, a fair). Another gruesome part of the grab is that he can jab > sideB you out of grab release which is 23% damage itself, and that's if he doesn't jab cancel you(the full jab cancel combo will be 32% damage after pummels but it is DIable). He can also down B you out of the grab release and you'll never see it coming. It'll kill you at about 100%. So basically, using usmash is way too risky, and you should stick to Fsmash.

That being said, don't use ivy unless you're on norfair, because you can get gimped pretty easily by his fair and CGs to the edge of the stage > dtilt. Don't use squirtle either, it might seem like a good idea but just remember that grab = kill at about 80% if you're squirtle, and also remember that nearly every move you have is not safe on shield and can be punished with Bowser's up B.

Sounds scary. How can you win? Go Zard. Zard does really well against Bowser, he is very anti-shield and his air game is better. To win, use the dashgrab approach with some side B shield pressure thrown in and you can also space your tilts. The goal is to get him in the air so you can juggle him. I'd say Bowser beats Ivy and Squirtle 60:40 but loses to Zard 40:60.

By the way, Bowser is more mobile than any PT character, just so you know.

 

[Bestiarius]

Yeah, Bowser's way more mobile than Squirtle. By the way, did I mention that I was recently elected to be the Easter Bunny?

 

[T-block]

good post darknid...i'm getting pretty scared if that's all accurate. how much PT experience do you have? looks like another one of those don't get grabbed matchups...what's bowser's grab range like?

 

[Darknid]

good post darknid...i'm getting pretty scared if that's all accurate. how much PT experience do you have? looks like another one of those don't get grabbed matchups...what's bowser's grab range like?

Thankfully, his grab range isn't so great. All of his grabs have a lot of lag at the end, so you can punish. His dashgrab has good range but it gets him smashed of he misses.