Pokemon Trainer Socratic Discussion Thread

[Zigsta]

That goes for all of you, I always see in all your videos you guys doing something like doing aerials with charizard and ivysuar, after you KO an opponent dont do anything that would make your pokemon more tired.
Been bothering me.

Very true.

Although this isn't much of an issue if the Pokemon is already fatigued to the max.

 

[Kith]

Because Squirtle looks like he's taunting the opponent and telling him to "Come on," like Fox's taunt.



I did not, though I figured out that you can while screwing around on that level. I've been purposely doing it ever since, but I don't know of any practical applications for it.

It's really good for playing keep away if your opponent doesn't know how to do it (or if he's metaknight. Winged characters can't do it lol).

 

[T-block]

That's a really good point, Magik. I always dashdance and short hop around after I get the KO, but I usually make sure to not use any moves.

As for Baton Passing on PS1, yeah it's possible (I wasn't the one who discovered it btw), since I believe there's a very small drop in the main platform whenever the stage changes. It's impractical to try to take advantage of it though, since it's impossible to predict the timing of your switch that accurately.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As for Baton Passing on PS1, yeah it's possible (I wasn't the one who discovered it btw), since I believe there's a very small drop in the main platform whenever the stage changes. It's impractical to try to take advantage of it though, since it's impossible to predict the timing of your switch that accurately.

I dunno--Kismet punishes my Zero Switches every time now. I imagine it can't be significantly harder than that.

 

[T-block]

How does he punish them? When you're trying to punish a Zero Switch, you have a lot more leeway frame-wise than if you were trying to time a switch on PS1. I don't know how many frames you have to get a Zero Switch on PS1, but considering the switch times aren't constant, I doubt you'd be able to get it with any sort of consistency.

Only situation I can think of is if you're really desparate for a switch against D3 or ICs... or Falco at low percents - characters that would punish you with a grab. Then even if you finish switching before the stage changes and they grab you, there's a chance the stage will break the grab before too much damage is done.

 

[Steeler]

Because Squirtle looks like he's taunting the opponent and telling him to "Come on," like Fox's taunt.

reflex you are such a troll lol

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i like doing lots of nuetrals (even though it fatigues) because of the noise it makes

toooooo good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How does he punish them? When you're trying to punish a Zero Switch, you have a lot more leeway frame-wise than if you were trying to time a switch on PS1. I don't know how many frames you have to get a Zero Switch on PS1, but considering the switch times aren't constant, I doubt you'd be able to get it with any sort of consistency.

Only situation I can think of is if you're really desparate for a switch against D3 or ICs... or Falco at low percents - characters that would punish you with a grab. Then even if you finish switching before the stage changes and they grab you, there's a chance the stage will break the grab before too much damage is done.

Usually hits with a Forward-Smash or strong D-Air with his Falco. Never fails to hit me, though.

I feel like the switch times are relatively constant (perhaps it ranges from system to system or disc to disc?), myself. Charizard loads the fastest, then Squirtle, then Ivysaur ( >:[ ), but I feel like I've been able to "tell," as well.

As far as Stadium 1 goes, I definitely take advantage of the auto-release whenever I can. I might be unnecessarily reckless against a Dedede or Falco at that time, or I'll throw immediately to get maximum damage potential.

 

[T-block]

Well...he does have time to react to when you come out when he's punishing.

Switch times definitely vary depending on the system. Some Wiis have noticeably slower disc readers, causing longer switch times. On a given Wii, ff you manage to cycle through all 3 pokemon, it might make any future switches take a set time, but I'm not sure. It's something we should test...I might do it after exams if I remember.

btw, I can't stop watching your sig @.@

 

[Zigsta]

Has anyone tried out uses for DASC? I remember us bringing it up a while back, but I don't think anyone had tested it then.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

what's a DASC?

 

[Toby.]

Geez Gimpyfish get with the times.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

oh dang i LOVE digital active signal collectors

 

[Toby.]

yeah, ****s so cash

 

[Zigsta]

what's a DASC?

It's Da Awesome Seibrik Combo. It's basically a dash attack at the ledge that can be canceled into an aerial.

 

[Kith]

Lol its Dash attack shield cancelling

 

[Magik0722]

DASC is hardly useful with any character

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i prefer digital active signal collectors to all of these things

i'm really not with the times at all i just happen to use pokemon trainer, i don't even know how to hydroplane or do any of the other tricks

other than the ivysaur run off up b thing

i like doing that so you don't actually go off the stage that's my favorite

 

[Kith]

I've been meaning to do some research on DASCing against Snakes. I have a video where I dasc'd to grab ledge. Snake was then off the stage and had to jump back. That's never a good position for Snake....

 

[Kith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyfdswyMytk&feature=related
At around 3:45 it happens, and it's happened a couple of times to me. I'm sure a drop-down -> footstool could have definitely meant his stock if I had a watergun charged

 

[Zigsta]

Wow, that looks handy, Kith.

Do you remember the exact button combination you used for this? I gotta say, I've never tried DASCing at all.

 

[Kith]

I just dash attacked him, then DI'd towards the ledge. I did nothing special there, and I did not mean to do it lol.

 

[Buuda]

This has already been brought up in the Squirtle Tactical Discussion Thread, but I thought it may be worth mentioning here.
1) Does anyone think that the "edge-drop and refresh" glitch-type thing when you recover on Lylat and PS1 could be potentially useful?
2) Could someone make a diagram/ in-game shot thingy, like the hit-bubble shots, except a shot in which we can see where we should be hitting the ledge for this to be effective, or if this perhaps requires us to be within certain frames, or both?

Basically, if you don't know what this is, it's much like what's done with Wolf's Side-B (Watch some Kain replays, lol) where he whacks the edge, and just kind of bounces of or drops down, and he can do this repeatedly without ever actually touching the stage. Squirtle can do similar, except he drops down and gets an additional jump.
I personally think that this is something we should look into. Lylat and PS1 are both very viable CPs as it is, and we should utilize everything at our disposal. As far as usefulness goes, if this were to be done intentionally, I think it could be a good mixup, good for planking (particularly if you're already fatigued anyways, and you NEVER grab the edge so you can CAMP ALL DAY), and especially on Lylat, Squirtle's got them mad stage-spikes, so it could be great for luring people in when they see you suddenly drop down and don't expect you to have another jump. Or if they do, it's still a good mix-up. Plus, if you know how we CAN use it, then this also means we'll learn how to NOT do it. lol. I know I've SD'd more than once due to doing it unintentionally, so I'd personally rather be able to do it on command.
Discuss. (:

 

[Kantō]

This has already been brought up in the Squirtle Tactical Discussion Thread, but I thought it may be worth mentioning here.
1) Does anyone think that the "edge-drop and refresh" glitch-type thing when you recover on Lylat and PS1 could be potentially useful?
2) Could someone make a diagram/ in-game shot thingy, like the hit-bubble shots, except a shot in which we can see where we should be hitting the ledge for this to be effective, or if this perhaps requires us to be within certain frames, or both?

Basically, if you don't know what this is, it's much like what's done with Wolf's Side-B (Watch some Kain replays, lol) where he whacks the edge, and just kind of bounces of or drops down, and he can do this repeatedly without ever actually touching the stage. Squirtle can do similar, except he drops down and gets an additional jump.
I personally think that this is something we should look into. Lylat and PS1 are both very viable CPs as it is, and we should utilize everything at our disposal. As far as usefulness goes, if this were to be done intentionally, I think it could be a good mixup, good for planking (particularly if you're already fatigued anyways, and you NEVER grab the edge so you can CAMP ALL DAY), and especially on Lylat, Squirtle's got them mad stage-spikes, so it could be great for luring people in when they see you suddenly drop down and don't expect you to have another jump. Or if they do, it's still a good mix-up. Plus, if you know how we CAN use it, then this also means we'll learn how to NOT do it. lol. I know I've SD'd more than once due to doing it unintentionally, so I'd personally rather be able to do it on command.
Discuss. (:

i wanna see a vid of this cuz it sounds kool. i dont quite understand though...

 

[@TKbreezy]

Then why as a unfatigued squirtle do you hold down the a button after you make a kill? That's like the fastest way to get your squirtle fatigued.

That goes for all of you, I always see in all your videos you guys doing something like doing aerials with charizard and ivysuar, after you KO an opponent dont do anything that would make your pokemon more tired.
Been bothering me.

uhh jabs/pummels/B-moves don't fatigue...I hold down A also when I get a kill...especially if its a hydroplaned/reverse hydroplaned upsmash

I will admit that i randomly utilt with ivy when I get an upsmash kill though...I should stop that...lol

 

[T-block]

Are you sure about that, TKO? I thought only the 3rd hit of jab combo doesn't fatigue. I'm pretty sure B-moves do as well.

I haven't actually tested any of this though, so you could be right.

 

[Toby.]

Lol yeah TKO, jab definitely fatigues. I tested that a long time ago. Holding down jab ***** squirtle pretty hard.

B moves also fatigue.

 

[Buuda]

Yeah, I'll agree, jab-spamming will **** Squirtle in the face. So does Water Gun spam XD (fun to do when fatigued, and super effective!).

 

[@TKbreezy]

whhaaaaa.....wasnt that in all the like "beginning PT" threads though? i coulda swore jabs and bmoves didnt fatigue...****...well time to stop jab spamming

 

[T-block]

Yeah we are trying to get rid of all the outdated information so that can stop happening >_> Do you remember where you read it by any chance? Probably Card's guide, huh?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161741 contains the currently accepted information.

 

[CoonTail]

I've been meaning to do some research on DASCing against Snakes. I have a video where I dasc'd to grab ledge. Snake was then off the stage and had to jump back. That's never a good position for Snake....

Kith I saw this and it reminds me of when people power shield forward hydroplanes and they ledge cancel. I constantly catch my teamate who mains mario with forward hydroplanes and he started powershielding them. Once he started doing this I end up ledge cancelling hydroplanes constantly. Either way this gives us more reason to use dash attack near the edge so I'd like to figure out if there is a set way to cause DASC.

Great find as usual tho kith btw is that controller still looking fly?

 

[Buuda]

So nobody wants to research the Waterfall-reset shenanigans? Lol. I would do it myself, but I don't have the software. I don't even have an SD card to make replays. X_X
I'd just like to understand the in-depth mechanics.

 

[T-block]

You can still research. Jump at the ledge a few times and see if you notice any patterns as to when/why it happens. I do see some use for this now, so I think I might do some testing later, but if you could gather some hints first that'd help a lot.

 

[@TKbreezy]

Charizards N-air...Discuss

oh and...I kno this is totally impractical but yesterday I hit my friend on BF platform while i was on the ground with N-air > Up-B

low percent combo? I'll test it out some more later...I mean there is obviously better options then that but it's still pretty funny

also does anyone effectively use Up-B? I have been wanting to do it out of shield like marths' do but I feel as though it is too slow for that

and back to the nair subject it seems to be more useful for me then fair in most situations...that guaranteed knockback is a total helper even if it isnt alot of knockback...I just hate when I wiff a f-air and then end up gettin upsmashed or something because I didn't get that knockback


oh and charizard DI momentumem cancel move is B-air right?

 

[T-block]

Yeah b-air is the best...I've been using f-air lately >_> I should fix that.

N-air at low percents leads (possibly true combo?) into a lot of stuff... the most useful one is probably grab.

As for f-air, I don't think it's fair to compare it to n-air since they fulfill different roles. F-air comes out a lot faster in front of you. I very rarely approach with it, and when I use it it's almost always a retreating f-air.

 

[Zigsta]

Fair's a better approach than nair against some characters. Take Marth, for example. I hardly ever nair Marth at all because it's just way too easy for Marth to hit you with just about anything in the time it takes Charizard to jump, input nair, and then have his tail turn in front of his body. In MUs like Marth, I go for nairs after I'm already in midair.

As far as Fly out of shield, I rarely ever use it. It's way too easy to punish and doesn't offer the same kind of knockback that Marth's up B does.

 

[@TKbreezy]

@T-Block

how do u even do that and still get that knockback of that f-air...maybe i just need to explore charizards hitbox a little better.

also lately I've been N-airing OOS when people get directly behind me (you know that spot directly behind Charizard where it seems like you can't do ****.)

 

[T-block]

F-air is a terrible approach, especially against Marth =\ It's way too easy for him to space himself into the no-flinch part of the hitbox and hit you. I'd rather RAR n-air or RAR b-air, but using aerials to approach Marth isn't the best idea anyways.

TKO, the point isn't to hit with the knockback part really... f-air isn't a good move like that lol. I retreat it because it covers the air in front of me pretty nicely. Characters with slower air speeds or small range will find it hard to get at you if you're retreating a f-air. Either you get the knockback, or you don't and they're too far away to punish. F-air > jab is something I use a lot... As for n-air OoS, have you tried b-air OoS? B-air comes out one frame faster, and is probably more rewarding.

Up-b OoS is cool... I've been trying to use it more. As soon as you think there's a chance they might predict you though, you should stop.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

lets get typhy

 

[Toby.]

thunderbirds are go

and by that i mean lets get typhy