Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The issue many people have is that your refutations are often backed up by nothing other than your experience, and BPC:

You don't have much.

That and the way you come across to people is that of a zealot ramming their opinion down their throat.

...this is wrong, I normally don't say this as a straight up fact but this is straight up wrong.

If we're going for the BPC doesn;t go the tournaments angle again, he can refute this, plenty of times over.

It's not just his experience T-block show cased his reasoning, heck if Yoshi mains, specifically one who got 17th at Pound V and says it's a good Yoshi stage I trust that.

What I want, is people to show that people legitimately want this stage gone by a huge majority like Port town Aero Drive, or for people to show a broken aspect of this stage, what is broken here?

It's not BPC saying this, there are a lot of people saying this stage isn't broken.

Let me see if I'm getting this

-BPC makes an extensive, educated post which rationally explains why PS2 should be a starter (which is contary to popular belief)
-People say that PS2 should not be a starter for various reasons
-BPC analyses and effectively refutes these arguments, showing that his initial idea that PS2 = starter still stands

Therefore, BPC = stubborn narrow-minded prick who refuses to listen to anyone else

Is it just me, or is there something missing?

None of those reasons are legit.

Marth might kill himself, or Yoshi/G&W putting themselves in the rock don't fly with me. Air portion is dumb, in which most of the cast can get to the ground safely.

Is someone dumb here, are their ridiculous advantages? What makes this stage so bad?

 

[Ghostbone]

Is someone dumb here, are their ridiculous advantages? What makes this stage so bad?

Well the air part has very situational dumb stuff.

Like MK uair>uair>uair>uair>death at higher percents than on other stages.
(this only works if they can't SDI though soooo...)
G&W killing with uair.

Recoveries acting weird.

People don't want to have to get used to all of this because they're lazy.

Similar situation with electric and ice, people don't want to have to get used to playing on those segments.

Plus there are loads of misconceptions about this stage.

 

[fkacyan]

I think everybody replying to my posts must be mentally challenged.

Hit "Search this thread" and show me where I said PS2 shouldn't be legal given our current stagelist.

Go on.

Show me where I disagreed on that count.

You can't?

No ****ing ****.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think everybody replying to my posts must be mentally challenged.

Hit "Search this thread" and show me where I said PS2 shouldn't be legal given our current stagelist.

Go on.

Show me where I disagreed on that count.

You can't?

No ****ing ****.

Why even post about BPC then or even ignore that aspect when you said he had no experance.

 

[fkacyan]

Why even post about BPC then or even ignore that aspect when you said he had no experance.

Because he still acts like he has credentials when he doesn't. Just because I agree with the idea that the stage should be legal doesn't mean I agree with everything he says; for example, that it should be a starter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because he still acts like he has credentials when he doesn't. Just because I agree with the idea that the stage should be legal doesn't mean I agree with everything he says; for example, that it should be a starter.

He's acting that he is right or correct, not that he has high credentials like top players.

 

[Tesh]

Is the stage is rarely great or horrible for anything, it seems pretty neutral to me. I don't agree with the DMG starter mentality.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Hey BPC, what stage would you have PS2 replace amongst FD, SV, BF, Lylat, and Yoshi's? Getting rid of one of those might neutralize a lot of matchups game one. Like Snake vs MK would probably go PS2 if it replaced FD or Yoshi's, so the MU would be generally more even game one.

 

[-LzR-]

Why replace? What are you talking about?

 

[Yikarur]

don't do like you don't understand
5 Starter Lists are standard and he wants to know which he would replace which would obviously be FD.

 

[Tesh]

Should be 7, add lylat please.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Why replace? What are you talking about?

Well we can't have a 4, 6, or 8 stage starter list. :/ Needs to be an odd number, so I was wondering where he would put PS2 based on neutrality in relation to the other neutrals. One of the current and most widely accepted neutrals on the list would have to go.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey BPC, what stage would you have PS2 replace amongst FD, SV, BF, Lylat, and Yoshi's? Getting rid of one of those might neutralize a lot of matchups game one. Like Snake vs MK would probably go PS2 if it replaced FD or Yoshi's, so the MU would be generally more even game one.

don't do like you don't understand
5 Starter Lists are standard and he wants to know which he would replace which would obviously be FD.

First of all, this. FD sticks out like a sore thumb-it's ridiculously unbalanced as a stage. Not horrible like Brinstar or RC, but still pretty bad. If I had to replace one, it would easily be FD.
Secondly...

Should be 7, add PS1 please.

Why replace? MLG showed the benefits of 9-starter stage lists. In general, my opinion of starters should be well-known: the more, the better. The more starters you have, the more likely you are to reach the truly neutral stage of the matchup. Case in point, imagine this descending row:
1: FD
3: FD/SV/BF
5: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1
7: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS
9: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS/PS2/Delfino
11: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS/PS2/Delfino/Frigate/Halberd

Every time you add two more starters, matchups like Diddy-G&W or ICs-Wario come closer to their natural "balance point", because each character is striking away stages which are advantageous for the other. And even if one adds more stages which are advantageous for one end, all it will mean is that those stages should matter. In short: don't remove. Always add more! Even if it means taking up a stage like Brinstar as a starter-as long as there are enough strikes, it's not an issue (in other words: a starter list with brinstar and RC where you only get one strike: serious problem. Starter list with Brinstar and RC where you have 5 strikes? Not a problem)


And also, here's a trick: the 5th starter is usually "up in the air" between PS1 and Lylat. With PS2 in the mix, finding the "7th" starter is not even remotely an issue.

 

[Tesh]

1: FD
3: FD/SV/BF
5: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1
7: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS
9: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS/PS2/Delfino
11: FD/SV/BF/YI/PS1/LC/CS/PS2/Delfino/Frigate/Halberd

The "1" should be SV ofcourse, it tends to be the place to be.

also ps2>cs

 

[!!!RM!!!]

I think people just need to get over the whole "striking too many stages is too tedious" thing if more stages to strike = more neutral stage selection game 1. Striking from 9 stages takes what? A minute or less? Why not take an extra 30 seconds to strike 5 more stages? They'll be stages like RC, Japes, and other CPs, so striking most of them wouldn't require too much thought as long as you know the matchup correctly.

 

[Tesh]

taking too much time is the dumbest argument against full stage striking. With full stage striking or 9 stage, there will be 2-3 stages that you will strike right away without much thought on it. Its a pretty irrelevant amount of time. As there is no set time for 5 stage striking anyway. If you want to be a douche and go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" for 30 seconds its not against the rules.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

^ I'm so doing that next tournament I go to. I'll keep thinking until the TO tells me to pick a stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think people just need to get over the whole "striking too many stages is too tedious" thing if more stages to strike = more neutral stage selection game 1. Striking from 9 stages takes what? A minute or less? Why not take an extra 30 seconds to strike 5 more stages? They'll be stages like RC, Japes, and other CPs, so striking most of them wouldn't require too much thought as long as you know the matchup correctly.

Technically, most of them will not be hardcore CPs-you don't get into that range until like what, 11? 13? But even then, you hardly need much time at all. With a set format of P1 x3, P2 x4, P1 x1 (the BBR recommended method), it's shockingly fast.

^ I'm so doing that next tournament I go to. I'll keep thinking until the TO tells me to pick a stage.

Yes. The 5-stage method can last just as long as the 17-stage method... if you let it.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Maybe take forever going from game 1 to game 2 if they win. Get rid of their momentum.

 

[Tesh]

Maybe take forever going from game 1 to game 2 if they win. Get rid of their momentum.

Make sure you ask what the legal stages are. Then call the TO over to clarify any rules you don't fully understaand. Ask what the LGL is and if you can have someone coach you (make sure its someone that is currently busy in a match). Then ask you opponent if you can CP Hyrule Temple, Rumble Falls or Hanenbow. Should waste alot of time.

 

[Joaco]

Pokemon Stadium 2 isn't unfair, is just annoying.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Define annoying.

I find it extremely annoying to go up against people who abuse Metaknight on Brinstar for example.

I've been playing on this stage with quite a few characters, ranging from Falco, Ganon, Mario, and G&W. Probably the main thing I'm not a fan of is what seems to be a huge ceiling, and high ceilings are mostly more unbalanced than low ceilings since KO percents are fundamentally more even on low ceilings. In terms of how many silly abuses people have on this stage...the best part is it's largely all temporary, and it's pretty much never broken.

 

[Tesh]

I Think GnW does nicely on this stage. He definitely has the tools to do well on Ice and Air. Ground and Electric can be camped out regardless but he is solid there.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm pretty sure the ceiling on PS2 is barely larger than FD....where's that thread on ceiling heights >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

1% difference is quite significant when you factor that it was a fully charged Mario U-smash used for testing. Weaker KO moves scale more significantly with ceiling height changes.

ESPECIALLY when you factor DI, and PS2's rather large horizontal boundaries.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's almost equal to BF and FD, doesn't seem like it would factor that much to unbalance killing by what your saying A2.

 

[-LzR-]

So what if it has a higher ceiling than FD?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For Lazy people:

New Pork City: 118 (Bottom)
Jungle Japes: 100/97/93
Summit: 94 (Bottom) 71 (Top)
Green Hill Zone: 89/80/74
Luigi's Mansion: 88/84/78/67
Mario Circuit: 88/81/73
Shadow Moses: 88/80/70
Onett: 88
Pirate Ship: 85
Skyworld: 85/80/76/70
Havenbow: 85
Pictochat: 84
Eldin: 83
Pokemon Stadium 2: 83/75
Battlefield: 82/75/68
FD: 82
Delfino: 82
Norfair: 82/74/67
Yoshi's Island: 82/75
Lylat Cruise: 82/74
Spear Pillar: 82
Castle Siege: 82-88-81
Distant Planet: 82
Smashville: 82/74
Frigate: 81-77
Brinstar: 81/74/68
Wario Ware: 79
Halberd: 77/75/68-73/65
Aero Dive: 77
FlatZone2: 77
Rainbow Ride: 75
Green Greens: 75
Yoshi's Island (Melee): 74
Corneria: 74/70/57
Mushroomy: 67

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I Think GnW does nicely on this stage. He definitely has the tools to do well on Ice and Air. Ground and Electric can be camped out regardless but he is solid there.

He's decent at best on ice. What's he got, sliding fsmash spam? Air... Yeah, he's dangerous as all hell on air. And electric, he has this weird glitch where he basically constantly fairs you will glitching up at the edge of the stage. I haven't been able to replicate it though.

Pokemon Stadium 2 isn't unfair, is just annoying.

You want to know annoying? Go up against ICs on FD.

 

[Tesh]

I think the fair trick is too slow to bring out hitboxes. The dangerous one is the Dair spam. 2 hitboxes, 1 spikes (won't matter much against ledge invincibility though).

Ice isn't just Fsmash spam (though his smashes are pretty safe on shield). It complements his dangerous ground game nicely and his air game punishes nicely against anyone that tries to avoid ice combat.

 

[Yikarur]

ICs on FD are overrated (Diddy and Falco on FD are even more overrated though)

didn't know PS2 has that large blastzones! o:

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

They're overrated if you place them on the same level as MK on Brinstar. But otherwise it's hard to overrate them because they're really ****ing good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's almost equal to BF and FD, doesn't seem like it would factor that much to unbalance killing by what your saying A2.

I dunno, factor that PS2 is also pretty massive horizontally on top of being above average in ceiling height, you get a ton of room to DI on this stage. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say from experience that I've usually had to wait longer for kills on this stage compared to FD, SV, and BF. Especially if people are DIing horizontal launchers consistently high, what looks like a 1% difference is not that trivial. People who DI well do die vertically to horizontal launchers.

So what if it has a higher ceiling than FD?

Larger blastzones are fundamentally less balanced than smaller ones due to having a larger effect on weaker KO moves. This is because blastzone size and KO percents share a mostly linear relationship.

It's more minor than the fact that the stage is mostly non-abusable for most characters, but it is definitely a reason for heavyweights to not ban this stage. Doesn't hurt G&W or other characters who have decent momentum cancel options.

Off topic, I find it funny that no Falco user mentions that they have the option of moving next to the edge to camp with grounded lasers on the air transformation. This hits Snake if he crouches. I mean sure, he could powershield it, but it's still an option and better than jumping mindlessly.

 

[Zantetsu]

This thread made me laugh, you brawl players are silly

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well if that's true, maybe we should look at when people die here with and without DI.

It would look at that fact well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...You really think that that is an issue?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For me personally, no.

Although if A2 thinks it is, he should get data for when people die with or without DI. He is a smash researcher after all.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I meant him. It just seems like a very silly thing to complain about on PS2; it's just an iota larger than FD vertically and a bit shorter, horizontally.

 

[Raziek]

I'm astounded that BPC keeps fighting this battle. My patience to deal with people who don't understand the argument has grown incredibly thin.

As a result, I've started simply pointing them to this thread, telling them to read it. If they still have issues after that, I tackle their argument.

Also, BPC: We're getting started on the BBR stage analysis project shortly. Would you mind if I referenced the information in this thread, obviously giving you credit?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm astounded that BPC keeps fighting this battle. My patience to deal with people who don't understand the argument has grown incredibly thin.

As a result, I've started simply pointing them to this thread, telling them to read it. If they still have issues after that, I tackle their argument.

So... this is your fault?

ASDOFIHWOF*$@#HVJ)(@C*@$VJ#$ **** YOU YOU GIGANTIC ****WAD I HATE YOU SO MUCH

EDIT: c***-wad is not censored?

*breathes heavily*


...JK obv. I put up with the morons here decently.

Also, BPC: We're getting started on the BBR stage analysis project shortly. Would you mind if I referenced the information in this thread, obviously giving you credit?

Not at all. You should try to find the single post writeup on all the arguments I made for ADHD as well... I can't find it, but it's a damn good writeup.

EDIT: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1656674#p1656674
**** YES I FOUND IT