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Pokedex Entry #448: Lucario

Steeler

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rock smash can cancel the aura sphere out, it's a little lulzy but can actually work if lucario shoots the orb up close.

imo lucario's camping is good, but charizard definitely has the ability to get close with his dash speed and proper powershielding. rock smash is like a lucario fsmash with slightly less range and executable in the air.

squirtle just has to use his mobility to its fullest extent. hopping over fsmash. weaving in and out of aerial combat. taking advantage of lucario's bad grab range. etc etc. squirtle has to work a little bit harder but it's definitely not that bad.

ivysaur i can't comment on, because my ivysaur sucks ***.
 

Charizard92

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OK, detailed version of my opinion:

Lucario vs Squirtle: From the start, Lucario has an advantage. Lucario is much more capable of surviving than Squirtle, so off the bat, Squirtle will have an uphill battle to even KO Lucario. To compound things even further, Lucario has aura, AKA the ****ing Mechanic that makes Lucario more powerful the more damage he gets, so in an attempt to KO Lucario, Squirtle can end up setting his own death trap, as he has no reliable KO method that works below 100%. Lucario and Squirtle can both play airborne, so squirtle's saving grace can't save him now. Squirtle's last resort is to try to hit and run as much as possible to avoid getting killed. Lucario, wait for it... wait for it...

Lucario 60: Squirtle 40

Lucario vs Ivysaur: Ivysaur performs MUCH differently from Squirtle. While Squirtle is all damage racking, no KO, Ivysaur has several KO moves, especially in that dreaded upwards direction (Uair especially). Conversely, Ivysaur does not have many reliable methods to get to KO point (barring bullet seed and razor leaf, both of which are questionable with Lucario). Ivysaur, does handle being knocked around better (being Mid weight), but sucks when it comes to recovery (as we all ****ing know). Ivysaur doesn't have to worry about Aura as much, but the threat still exists. Lucario's main ace is the ease of Gimping Ivysaur. Outside that, there isn't much of a 1-up. Ivysaur can hit you from a distance, not to mention counter an air game with bullet seed, and a bunch of other ****.

Lucario 55: Ivysaur45

Charizard vs Lucario:
This is a matter of "who hit first?" more than anything else. Both Characters have an above average recovery, can juggle, hate being juggled themselves, and has a deadly ace (easy time Killing anybody vs aura). Charizard has several methods of racking up damage (Flamethrower, rock smash, grabs and throws, and U attacks), along with a lot of KO moves (All tilts, all smashes, Fair, Bair, dair, rocksmash, and fly), and out of those many are quite reliable (Ftilt, Dtilt, Usmash, utilt, bair, rock smash to a degree, and fly, also to a degree). Lucario, on the other hand, can play a rather airborne game, and (barring the fact that Charizard is awkwardly agile), can stay there without a ton of problems. Charizard is heavyweight, which means he'll stay awhile (along with being the most mobile heavyweight IMO), while Lucario has several nasty tricks up his sleeve (Double team). essentially, whoever gets the first shot gets the win (barring tripping or some **** to that caliber).

Lucario 50:50 Charizard

Lucario VS PT

You'd expect that PT would have to use all three Pokemon. However, most good PT's can find a way to use only two, so only their best match ups are used. Ordinarily, it's the average of the top 2. however, we don't have a 52.5 :47.5 ratio, so 55:45 will do.

Lucario 55: 45 PT.
 

Rkey

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@ charizard92:

There we have it folks. The only thing I'm thining about is whether squirtle is at even greater disadvantage, but otherwise that made a lot of sense. Great job.
 

Charizard92

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No we don't. Besides, over half the time you're trolling, so why should I listen to you now?
 

phi1ny3

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Well, I would argue 57.5 lucario 42.5 PT since I think it's still 55:45 against char, but I'll settle for 55:45 lucario's favor.
 

phi1ny3

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Wait, where did the 55:45 Char come from? It was 50:50.
I know, I have some things about charizard that say "meh", but don't get frame the whole matchup around my opinion, it's PT's decision really, I'm just here to keep things in check. I'm gonna say 55:45, but don't let that change your numbers. I think that overall, it is Lucario 55:45 PT overall. Wow, I said overall twice in the same sentence, lol.
 

Steeler

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it really doesn't matter, the winner will usually be decided by whoever makes less mistakes. it's fairly neutral.
 

PkTrainerCris

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I know, I have some things about charizard that say "meh", but don't get frame the whole matchup around my opinion, it's PT's decision really, I'm just here to keep things in check. I'm gonna say 55:45, but don't let that change your numbers. I think that overall, it is Lucario 50:45 PT overall. Wow, I said overall twice in the same sentence, lol.
Am i missing something??? I thought the numbers had to be 100, not 95.. maybe this is because pokemon fights are different or something.. someone please tell me :p..LOL
And i agree, its near neutral
 

Charizard92

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Might be a typo. Besides the fact that IMO Charizard is exactly even to Lucario, I pretty much agree with the guy.
 

PkTrainerCris

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Really? Do you REALLY think it is typo??? ¬¬... dude.. that was obviously sarcasm... but ok
i dont know, in my opinion lucarios juggling ability give him some kind of little uper hand over zard.. but neutral sounds fine
 

Charizard92

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They both can juggle each other to oblivion. Charizard doesn't have a defense against Juggling (barring Nair, which is questionable) and Lucario's defense is as obvious as a really big Bear in the middle of a bunny store (the rodent ones).
 

PkTrainerCris

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Mmm ok... so thats why i suck with lucario... i thought he had good defenses... lol.. i think i gotta search on a characters board before i play around with it...
 

phi1ny3

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They both can juggle each other to oblivion. Charizard doesn't have a defense against Juggling (barring Nair, which is questionable) and Lucario's defense is as obvious as a really big Bear in the middle of a bunny store (the rodent ones).
He actually has some good defenses, and fsmash, utilt, and jab are some of the good options. Unlike Charizard, he actually has a pretty good answer to juggles (dair, whether attacking or stalling to make a utilt/usmash whiff). I'm not saying it is punishable, but it is just as punishing from a dair stall as is punishing a whiffed dair with utilt/usmash/uair.
 

Charizard92

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He actually has some good defenses, and fsmash, utilt, and jab are some of the good options. Unlike Charizard, he actually has a pretty good answer to juggles (dair, whether attacking or stalling to make a utilt/usmash whiff). I'm not saying it is punishable, but it is just as punishing from a dair stall as is punishing a whiffed dair with utilt/usmash/uair.
I actually checked your boards, and it seems to be your consensus that Dair is rather predictable, so someone can dodge it. Charizard also has an answer to juggling (nair). both can be countered by shielding. I never said that they don't have good defenses (Charizard has several moves as well, like ftilt for example), but when juggling, it is rather hard (if not impossible) to get out without their defense move (which can be countered by shielding).
 

The Derrit

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I actually checked your boards, and it seems to be your consensus that Dair is rather predictable, so someone can dodge it. Charizard also has an answer to juggling (nair). both can be countered by shielding. I never said that they don't have good defenses (Charizard has several moves as well, like ftilt for example), but when juggling, it is rather hard (if not impossible) to get out without their defense move (which can be countered by shielding).
all moves can be countered by shielding. i don't see the distinction you're trying to make.
 

Rkey

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all moves can be countered by shielding. i don't see the distinction you're trying to make.
No:

- No grabs
- No ranged attacks (defend is different from countering)
- No attacks with high knockback (you can't attack them from out of shield then)
- No aerials that are spaced properly
- No shield-breaking/penetrating attacks

...can be countered from shielding.
 

phi1ny3

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I actually checked your boards, and it seems to be your consensus that Dair is rather predictable, so someone can dodge it. Charizard also has an answer to juggling (nair). both can be countered by shielding. I never said that they don't have good defenses (Charizard has several moves as well, like ftilt for example), but when juggling, it is rather hard (if not impossible) to get out without their defense move (which can be countered by shielding).
Dair is predictable, but I didn't mean dair itself, I mean dair STALLING. It practically makes the juggler in just as much danger as the jugglee. Lucario's dair comes out in 5 frames iirc, and ends at about 21. Combine that with almost no vertical descent, and it means that lucario can do one or two while you do a utilt/uair/usmash, then punish before a shield comes out. A lone dair is predictable indeed, but the stalling allows for either another dair to potentially sneak in, or let him land away from the juggling. I do have to say that Char's ftilt can pose a problem if well spaced in terms of defense, but dair isn't used alone in a juggling situation. It's used in a series.
 

Charizard92

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Yeah, and Charizard can air hop twice, so he technically has a counter like you, but when it comes to actually stopping a juggler, both suck.
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, and Charizard can air hop twice, so he technically has a counter like you, but when it comes to actually stopping a juggler, both suck.
Great, now add a scary dair with hardly any diminishings. Look, I don't want to go on, as it's my opinion versus the entire PT boards at this point (I think that the others think this was done a while now), but I agree with 55:45 lucario advantage for overall.
 

Steeler

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pretty much. i'm not sure on which of ivysaur and squirtle is the 45:55 and which is 40:60 but it's not too important.
 

Charizard92

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?

Anyway, the general is 45:55, so that is Consensus. Charizard is essentially Dead even (or some number that We can't use like 49:51) Ivysaur is 45:55 and Squirtle is 40:60
 

Charizard92

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Slight as in "we don't have an official scale for it" slight. It is either Dead even or rather close to even. IMO it's even.
 

phi1ny3

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Did... did I just read an entire page of people debating whether the Charizard vs Lucario matchup is 50-50 or 45-55?
Yes, but it's a battle of the flamed ones. You know what, in an actual pokemon game, lucario would get owned by Charizard (fighting < flying, steel <fire), plus some of Charizard's sweeping options seem better than lucario's.

Also, I agree with Steeler, but I'd still say 45:55 overall for lucario.
 

SSJ5Goku8932

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Eh,It does not matter as Lucario has the advantage really.And we also have to factor in the fatigue system.Like Gimpyfish said"accept your characters weaknesses".I just did and I am now closer to mastering PT.
 

Canvasofgrey

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A clear disadvantage in my opinion. Squirtle has problems killing, and building up the damage will only add Lucario at the end. Ivysaur can kill and stuff, but Lucario can combo Ivysaur and is easily gimped by Lucarios crazy priority. Charizard is a big target and succumbs to Lucario's combos, the only good factor really is that Charizard has the best killing potential against Lucario (And in general).

60:40 favor por Lucario. And I think that's being a bit over the top.
 

Rkey

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Argh! The arguments are circulating!

Please guys, wrap it up. It's no use anymore srsly.
 

Charizard92

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We already did. Lucario has a slight advantage against charizard, Ivysaur, and PT in general. Squirtle is disadvantage.
 
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