Pokedex Entry 4: Marth

[PkTrainerCris]

Ok, but anyway, the green means that this is the best pokemon in your arsenal to fiht this macthup, and all you will agree that charizard is the best against marth and metaknight, but he isnt great against them, so there is not plus on that green, and anyway, i keep thinking that my charizard is super effective against those sword men, and that wath matters to me

 

[Charizard92]

You can check the Charizard tactical discussion if you're rusty. I made it as a response to asking a question, why do people think Charizard sucks? I can expand that further.. why do people think PT sucks? The answer, nobody knows him outside of the 10 regulars on this board. Name practically every weakness you have against Charizard, and it is likely to be false, which is why I made it. Also, sometimes the answer according to common sense is the one that is the wrong answer. Common sense dictates that, if Meta Knight is top tier, PT would be mincemeat, yet PT isn't a dead man, and we concluded that there is an advantage to Charizard. However, we do have to rethink how we do this entire process from scratch, as we aren't real good on knowing others outside PT and very few people know PT well. Maybe we should get a list of strengths and weaknesses for each character and compare and contrast, so if one character's strength is another's weakness, then Character 1 would be strong against Character 2 and so on. Maybe all of us are tackling this problem wrong, especially since the current method is prone to the gang-up "it is a shutout" that this look-up is saying. Aka, we gotta start ALL OVER AGAIN!


here is an example of my Idea

We are comparing Character A to Character B, the differences are Rock, Paper, and Scissors, like the game, each strength is first, and each weakness is second:

A
Strength: Paper
Weakness: Rock

B
Strength: Scissors
Weakness: Paper

In this case, A has the advantage, as he has more advantages over B, what's even more, since the ratio of A's strength to B's weakness is 1 to 1, it is a great advantage. If it was less than a 1 to 1 ratio, then the advantage is slight, if it was even (or very **** close), then it is a neutral match, and if it was the reverse of the two, it would be a disadvantage in the respective ways.

We don't have to redo PT's as we know him, but we would have to get a list of the opponent's strengths and Weaknesses to our own. This would mean we would have to go onto other boards to ask for a general consensus to their Character's strengths and weaknesses to our own to get a better result. However, the only disadvantage I see on this method is that Strategy isn't well applied here, but then again, we don't really use strategy that much when talking about strengths and weaknesses, just how to overcome them. This is only accepted if Steeler36 accepts this method.

 

[Bomber7]

You can check the Charizard tactical discussion if you're rusty. I made it as a response to asking a question, why do people think Charizard sucks? I can expand that further.. why do people think PT sucks? The answer, nobody knows him outside of the 10 regulars on this board. Name practically every weakness you have against Charizard, and it is likely to be false, which is why I made it. Also, sometimes the answer according to common sense is the one that is the wrong answer. Common sense dictates that, if Meta Knight is top tier, PT would be mincemeat, yet PT isn't a dead man, and we concluded that there is an advantage to Charizard. However, we do have to rethink how we do this entire process from scratch, as we aren't real good on knowing others outside PT and very few people know PT well. Maybe we should get a list of strengths and weaknesses for each character and compare and contrast, so if one character's strength is another's weakness, then Character 1 would be strong against Character 2 and so on. Maybe all of us are tackling this problem wrong, especially since the current method is prone to the gang-up "it is a shutout" that this look-up is saying. Aka, we gotta start ALL OVER AGAIN!


here is an example of my Idea

We are comparing Character A to Character B, the differences are Rock, Paper, and Scissors, like the game, each strength is first, and each weakness is second:

A

I use a few characters other than PKT. If it would help I could join up with the other boards for the characters I use so I can be a knowlegeable for both sides. Charactersother than PKT) Toon Link, Link, Ice Climbers, Mario, ...Marth(too late sorry). Mario, IC, and Link I dont use too much but I have used Link since SSB.

 

[∫unk]

There's a crew I play against regularly that has a PT main.

Charizard has the best chance in this matchup. Even really good Ivy's get gimped if the Marth is smart, knows your recovery pattern, and uses moves that send you off at a low trajectory (dancing blade down combo, lower part of f-air, d-tilt, etc.). Squirtle just gets outranged and release grab makes an easy kill.

 

[Charizard92]

Um, can you get a list of pros and cons from them, I think I can possibly make one here.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, but anyway, the green means that this is the best pokemon in your arsenal to fiht this macthup, and all you will agree that charizard is the best against marth and metaknight, but he isnt great against them, so there is not plus on that green, and anyway, i keep thinking that my charizard is super effective against those sword men, and that wath matters to me

Just make sure you have a thread to note the actual match-ups in addition to a thread stating which pokemon is the best choice for a given match-up.

You really need a resource for PT players with viable secondaries, specifically to tell them which match-ups need secondaries, otherwise they won't know, and you'll be doing them a disservice.

You can check the Charizard tactical discussion if you're rusty. I made it as a response to asking a question, why do people think Charizard sucks? I can expand that further.. why do people think PT sucks? The answer, nobody knows him outside of the 10 regulars on this board. Name practically every weakness you have against Charizard, and it is likely to be false, which is why I made it.

Thanks, I noticed the thread and dropped by already.

I understand what you're getting at, but just because he doesn't suck doesn't mean he has advantages in every match-up. Unfortunately, both MK and Marth are not his characters.

Still, if you guys can get PT some tournament placing, it would do wonders for his standing among the community.

Also, sometimes the answer according to common sense is the one that is the wrong answer. Common sense dictates that, if Meta Knight is top tier, PT would be mincemeat, yet PT isn't a dead man, and we concluded that there is an advantage to Charizard.

Not really, lower tier characters commonly have a few advantagious match-ups against higher tiers.

However, we do have to rethink how we do this entire process from scratch, as we aren't real good on knowing others outside PT and very few people know PT well.

The only way to get around that is, test test test.

Maybe we should get a list of strengths and weaknesses for each character and compare and contrast, so if one character's strength is another's weakness, then Character 1 would be strong against Character 2 and so on.

Problem is, it's not that simple. Character specific advantages can be overshadowed by other characters having a slightly better version (again, I bring up the fact that MK outranges Marth ever so slightly). Or character specific advantages can be negated for other, seemingly irrelevant character-specific advantage.

Maybe all of us are tackling this problem wrong, especially since the current method is prone to the gang-up "it is a shutout" that this look-up is saying. Aka, we gotta start ALL OVER AGAIN!

The only reason a "gang-up" occurred was because there was because we had specific technical data. Really, specific technical data rules match-up threads, without it, match-ups aren't worth discussion because it defines who REALLY has the advantage.

here is an example of my Idea

We are comparing Character A to Character B, the differences are Rock, Paper, and Scissors, like the game, each strength is first, and each weakness is second:

A
Strength: Paper
Weakness: Rock

B
Strength: Scissors
Weakness: Paper

In this case, A has the advantage, as he has more advantages over B, what's even more, since the ratio of A's strength to B's weakness is 1 to 1, it is a great advantage. If it was less than a 1 to 1 ratio, then the advantage is slight, if it was even (or very **** close), then it is a neutral match, and if it was the reverse of the two, it would be a disadvantage in the respective ways.

We don't have to redo PT's as we know him, but we would have to get a list of the opponent's strengths and Weaknesses to our own. This would mean we would have to go onto other boards to ask for a general consensus to their Character's strengths and weaknesses to our own to get a better result. However, the only disadvantage I see on this method is that Strategy isn't well applied here, but then again, we don't really use strategy that much when talking about strengths and weaknesses, just how to overcome them. This is only accepted if Steeler36 accepts this method.

Again, the list of advantages has to be done character by character, relative to all the PT's characters, because long range means little if your opponent has longer range.

Their impact also has to be measured based on how the character use them.


Realistically, the current methodology just functions better.

 

[infernovia]

Metaknight's dtilt out ranges marth's? Thats just crazy.

I was hoping charizard's grab would make up the **** just a bit, but thats just insane poking power.

 

[Bomber7]

*yawn* .... Hey guys if yall would like, when I compete in the tourny two weeks from now, would you all want me to tell you how I did? I will be playing a Pokemon Trainer. It will be my first tourny so don't get your hopes up, but I will fight hard to try and place well.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, but the basics can be done to try and make a Pros and Cons list on each and compare the two. Testing will be needed to be done if they are the same thing (ex. Long range, we will have to test who's range is longer, but if it's long range to short range, long range has obvious advantage). I'm trying to come up with a method that isn't prone to bias (like by the PTs here [sorry guys]), mess (this isn't very organized I can tell), or flame war (which fortunately, was avoided in this situation), and my new method can get through that somewhat, even if it is a great undertaking.

 

[Bomber7]

Well I'll be willing to help in anyway that I can.

 

[infernovia]

WTH are you talking about.

If you are attempting to create a list of what moves outpriotizes what, all the power to you.

Edit for the next char: I highly suggest remaining in top tier genre. Falco would be interesting.

 

[Charizard92]

It is comparing strengths to weaknesses. Testing will be needed in case two characters with the same strength face each other to determine which one has the better.

 

[infernovia]

Isn't that basically what a match is about?

Your statement doesn't even make sense, for example, Ivysaur's Usmash is insanely powerful, compared to lets say pikachu, but that barely means anything. Start using more scientific terms. Or are you just comparing one of the battles Like... if you are comparing charizard and metaknight. But isn't that what the matchup thread is for?

I don't know dude, you need to get your idea out there more clearly.

 

[Bomber7]

Falco would be interesting.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Falco. We can all agree that Charz is pretty much screwed over because of Falco's Reflector Spam. Reflector Spam would make a huge dent in the debate. Just so you guys know. Squirtle has a better chance because of his speed. Ivy has a little better chance because he is strong and doesn't have a bad fly-back rate, and he is faster than Charz. Like I said Reflector Spam = Flaw in debate. I'm not discouraging it I just don't wana see this guys thread ripped to shreads like this past one with Marth.

 

[Charizard92]

Yes, except there is a way in the old system to entirely botch everything, it's called experience. You can face a noob with a character, and get one result, yet another person can face a master and get a different result. What's even worse, you may not even know your skill level. My idea was to take the human part out of it as much as we can (obviously we'll need humans to make the lists and compare and contrast, but it is better than a ton of mixed results). With my system, it is easier for people to look at something with facts than experience. Here is an example in history: in 1938 a hurricane has just missed Florida. Those with experience thought it would miss the US entirely, yet one newbie, trained to use physics instead of experience, predicted that it would hit New England, but due to his low position, he was ignored. Unfortunately, that newbie meteorologist was right, as that Hurricaine became known as the long island express, nearly hitting NYC. Hurricaines hit New England at 75 year intervals, longer than the life expectancy at the time. My method could be better, as it uses a different system that goes past experience and all.

PS, I know I lectured and I know that it wouldn't make more sense. What I'm trying to say is that Experience can be botched and that using Pen and Paper (and internet) could be better than memory.

 

[infernovia]

Ok, but how are you doing that, using frame data and checking priorities of attacks?

 

[Charizard92]

No, comparing strengths and weaknesses and seeing how many Strengths one character has over the other. However, it isn't that straight forward, it isn't how many strengths you have, it's how many strengths you have that trump your opponent's weaknesses. So if Character A has Five Strengths yet Character B has three, if B's all of B's strengths trump 3 of A's weaknesses and less than 3 of A's strengths do the same, B has the advantage. It'll make more sense once it is taken thorough practice.

 

[Steeler]

zard92, it's not that simple.

 

[Charizard92]

I know, but it isn't as messy with all the potential for experience to botch things. I was trying to attempt to take the problems out of it, but explaining it is around as easy as explaining Science. I'll still work on the Pros and Cons though, so I still have something to work with.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well i agree with falco being the next character, and i think that its a good idea to put the cons and pros, that would help even more than the information of the PT matchup thread, i think is a good idea to make it like they do the matchups in the pikachus forum

 

[infernovia]

So you are basically collecting all the smashwiki articles in one place.

Which is ridiculous because smashwiki already has all the pros and cons and a logical individuals can get the same idea without a thread and this is way better way of doing it.

 

[Charizard92]

I am not using Smash wiki, I am using the smash boards. The reason I'm using the smash boards is because I know the smash wiki lists are full of Bull (Charizard can't jump high, that is total ****)

 

[Bomber7]

So.... who will our next lucky guest star be in this thread? Will it be Falco? or will we go with a high-god tier character next?

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I am not using Smash wiki, I am using the smash boards. The reason I'm using the smash boards is because I know the smash wiki lists are full of Bull (Charizard can't jump high, that is total ****)

They're probably referring to the fact that Charizard's 2nd and 3rd jumps are a lot shorter than the first one.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Here's my two cents.

Squirtle can and will get destroyed by Marth in the air, because that ridiculously long sword will tip Squirtle right out of his element. I guess the only thing you can do to counter Marth is to Withdraw (which is easily countered, no pun intended) and Water Gun him right off the stage. This is one of those "ouch" matchups that will really screw over a Pokemon Trainer. 7/3 in favor of Marth.No, I'd say 8/2. Steel2nd found the grab release on squirtle, I think it's 0-46%, so that will **** squirtle and then after the grab realease, he can just use aerials to set up the correct spacing for a tipped fsmash kill at around 70%.

Ivysaur: This is pretty interesting. Ivy actually outranges Marth with several attacks (Razor Lead, Bullet Seed, Vine Whip, BAir), but all of them are fairly weak except for Vine Whip. That means you might need to get in a little too close for comfort to smash him a good one and into the abyss. Luckily, it's the tip and not the handle that deals out heavy damage. I'd say 5/5 even. Not so though. Ivy is easy to gimp, Marth can edgehog him to his death. I'd say 6/4 Marth

Read the red.

10squirtlesgettinrapedbygrabrelease

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, I'd say 8/2. Steel2nd found the grab release on squirtle, I think it's 0-46%, so that will **** squirtle and then after the grab realease, he can just use aerials to set up the correct spacing for a tipped fsmash kill at around 70%.

It's worse then that... grab release has set knockback so.... squirtle will AWAYS be perfectly spaced for a tippered dair. Which means it's a 0 to death combo. Before squirtle can do anything btw, and DI does nothing.

Basically, if squirtle lands on the stage you get to do another grab release, if he's off stage, tippered dair.

 

[Charizard92]

Too late, we don't have an 8/2 scale or something, we only have super effective, slightly affective, neutral, slightly ineffective, and very ineffective.

 

[Bomber7]

Hey guyz. I'm back. Ummm the tourny I competed in yesterday. I didnt do half bad. I got 17th place out of 33. my friend got 13th, though we lasted each for 3 matches. He got knocked down to losers braket and won from there and I went undefeated for 2 matches and then lost on the 3rd game against the guy who beat my friend. A few people were quite surprised to see a PKT user at the tourny. All the guys were nice, really good guys. Awsomme players too. I could tell I need more work for that tourny style of playing. For my first tourny I have to admit I did decent. If you want to see the results I am the last name under 17th place. go look under the Louisiana thread.

 

[Onxy]

Play me... Seriously, we were supposed to play a long time ago.

 

[Darknid]

I think the best option is Charizard here. I'm pretty sure Ivysaur can camp Marth, but Charizard outranges, outweighs and outpunches Marth. Marth is also easy to leave in no-man's-land offstage using Zard's Fair which sends opponents forward low. Marth doesn't like big characters as far as I remember..Bowser isn't bad against him, DK beats him, and I'm pretty sure Zard has a 6-4 advantage vs Marth because Marth has to get the tipper in order to KO Zard. Also, Marth can be shieldgrabbed by Zard in situations where no other non-tether grabber could which can really throw Marth off as he thinks he is safe. Anyways, I'd say Zard all the way. As I recall, Bowser would be a 6-4 adv. over Marth if not for Marth's options against Bowser's flame breath but I think Zard's flame breath is different in such a way as to limit Marth's options out of it.

 

[Magik0722]

Good bump i think we should revisit this matchup

 

[Bomber7]

flamethrower can be dolfin smashed. Marth can DI to you quickly and DS. so you can only use Flamethrower for so long. and marth can **** you in the air with Fair. Charz however does have rock and F-samsh to kill marth with. though with marth's speed and tip charz can get owned easily.

 

[Magik0722]

some videos are going to be uploaded from this saturdays tournament soon vs some marths so ill post them here when they arrive

 

[TheNix]

As has already been said to death, do not let Squirtle get grabbed by Marth (unless you are on a platform or something). He can grab release you to an edge and spike or whatever he wants. Whether or not I chance keeping Squirtle in against Marth usually comes down to my mood or the stage.

Ivysaur can space pretty well, but Marth has no problems getting him off the stage and gimping. It's risky, but hey, Ivysaur always is.

Charizard does really well in my experience, but yeah, flamethrower is close to useless here.

Recent video of this matchup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL9VyCSNMRw

Marth probably has an overall advantage, but it's not that bad.

 

[typh]

ivysaur vs. marth is actually really good for ivysaur

approaching razor leaf ***** and you can bullet seed out of most/all of his "combos"

and you can edgeguard him reaaaaally well with up-b tricks

 

[Ulevo]

ivysaur vs. marth is actually really good for ivysaur

approaching razor leaf ***** and you can bullet seed out of most/all of his "combos"

and you can edgeguard him reaaaaally well with up-b tricks

Exactly what do you mean by "combos"?

 

[Toby.]

Eh, ivysaur doesn't do so great. You can't bullet seed out of that much really. Take dancing blade for example. You can seed out of the final down multi hit, but as soon as they become aware of that all the marth has to do is use the other finishing variations. You cant bullet seed out of any of the others as far as I know.

It's a pretty annoying matchup. Next time I play with Shaya (marth player) I'll ask him to upload some of the vids.

 

[Magik0722]

I also think ivysaur is the best option for marth

 

[typh]

i agree with magik

 

[Steeler]

i think this is like the second worst matchup for PT.

squirtle is quite useless if the marth grab releases.

ivysaur does fairly well on stage but has an issue, imo, matching step with marth when it comes to damage output. marth really shouldn't be giving ivysaur many bullet seed opportunities due to the fact that marth doesn't have to use his unsafe smashes to kill you, and instead focus on gimps.

marth outspaces charizard and your three most effective spacers are much less effective than normal. flamethrower gives marth an opportunity to dolphin slash/fair/uair you with sdi. rock smash always loses to the sword when spaced, but you might get shard damage for like...5%... your grabs are outranged by marth's sword for the most part.