Pokedex Entry 4: Marth

[Charizard92]

It was about how well PT does against certain characters per each of his Pokemon, like a Pokemon type chart. My question was should we tackle high tier characters who we are likely to face or low tier characters we are likely to beat, as ice to cover our wounds on the fact that Marth essentially Poke his sword through us.

 

[Onxy]

I frankly don't care which characters you guys tackle.

 

[Amide]

actually i'm really glad these marth guys came over, the pt board as a whole isn't all that 'experienced' if you will, since pt is so unpopular.

i expected us to look bad, but that's why i invite peeps from the respective character boards to help us analyze instead of just doing it ourselves

Speaking of 'unpopular,' even Captain Falcon is ahead of PT on the Character Ranking List. It's so surprising, I don't know what could explain it.

 

[Blackbelt]

Speaking of 'unpopular,' even Captain Falcon is ahead of PT on the Character Ranking List. It's so surprising, I don't know what could explain it.

I can field that one.


You see, everyone thinks Captain Falcon is the owrst character in the game.


Of course people will go out of their way to prove that mentality wrong.


And also, Falcon is simply so much more popular.

 

[Bomber7]

Agreed. I might say that most people consider PKT useless because of well how "difficult" he is. Difficult maybe, but not that difficult, different 100% yes. Difficult because he's different, ehhh depend on who you are. I found him less than 5% difficult (at most) 95% different.

 

[Bomber7]

It was about how well PT does against certain characters per each of his Pokemon, like a Pokemon type chart. My question was should we tackle high tier characters who we are likely to face or low tier characters we are likely to beat, as ice to cover our wounds on the fact that Marth essentially Poke his sword through us.

Also just because this thread may fail online, it doesnt make it true fact. I'm sure you heard the phraze "Action speaks louder than words" It's self explainatory. On the battlefield, what you do and the outcome of it makes the proof, or fact or whatever, not the words.

.... why do i get the feeling I'm one of the people who talks to Snake.

 

[Amide]

I can field that one.


You see, everyone thinks Captain Falcon is the owrst character in the game.


Of course people will go out of their way to prove that mentality wrong.


And also, Falcon is simply so much more popular.

XD. Falcon isn't the worst. It's just that PT is a lot better. (IMO) I used to main Falcon.

 

[Blackbelt]

XD. Falcon isn't the worst. It's just that PT is a lot better. (IMO) I used to main Falcon.

Yeah, I use Falcon as well, and I don't see him as the worst.


But alot of people do.

 

[Bomber7]

Yeah, I use Falcon as well, and I don't see him as the worst.


But alot of people do.

Yeah, I know I'm going to sound like such a n00b asking, but ummm, how do people see Falcon as the worst player? I think he's still good, he has been in all 3 games.

 

[Knyaguy]

Yeah, I know I'm going to sound like such a n00b asking, but ummm, how do people see Falcon as the worst player? I think he's still good, he has been in all 3 games.

Being in all three games dosen't make him the best. His knee has been nerfed and harder to sweetspot. The knee was like falco's spike, it made the character "good."

 

[adumbrodeus]

Being in all three games dosen't make him the best. His knee has been nerfed and harder to sweetspot. The knee was like falco's spike, it made the character "good."

It's more then that (since this has drifted so far off-topic).

He has almost no priority, no good approaches, and he's built to combo in an engine that prohibits it.


Bottom slot is arguable, but he's definitely down there.

 

[Bomber7]

oh, I guess so. Either way, it's just a game.

 

[Onxy]

Bomber want to play me?

 

[Bomber7]

umm sure but not today tommorow yes. FC is 1977-0448-7528.

 

[Hydde]

bomber and onxy add me please!
4210-3660-2880

 

[Yumil]

Wow, I missed a good discusion. Marth's are right, hes got an advantage over all three, BUT that is to be expected. There is one thing I'd like to point out. We are only analyzing how each character does by themselves, while Pokemon Trainer's strength relies on all three. You wouldn't think this is important since its hard to switch midfight, but it doesn't have to be easy to give yourself the upperhand.

The better PTs will be great with all three and CHANGING THEIR FIGHTING STYLE MIDFIGHT. Experienced or inexperienced its hard to deal with that type of rhythm changing. Yes, people will adapt, but the starting moments after each switch will be harder for them to deal with after having an intense battle with the last. I'm sorry, but even the best pros should still have problems adapting, especially while PT is a relatively unplayed character.

I mean, I've played people where when I played a whole stock as Ivy and tried to kill them near the end I couldnt land a killing blow, then the next time around when I swap from squirtle after pounding them with him to Ivy I kill them the first hit. Things like that often happen. Like I've said Im not the best, but I know the ability to switch gears helps tremendously.

So before crying that we have pure weaknesses in the matchups, remember that PT is special and can't only be analyzed as seperate characters. The only problem is its hard to measure this properties effect on value. PT will always be a higher tier than all three of his pokemon(if it were possible to just play them) due to this.

 

[blueshirt314]

Wow, I missed a good discusion. Marth's are right, hes got an advantage over all three, BUT that is to be expected. There is one thing I'd like to point out. We are only analyzing how each character does by themselves, while Pokemon Trainer's strength relies on all three. You wouldn't think this is important since its hard to switch midfight, but it doesn't have to be easy to give yourself the upperhand.

The better PTs will be great with all three and CHANGING THEIR FIGHTING STYLE MIDFIGHT. Experienced or inexperienced its hard to deal with that type of rhythm changing. Yes, people will adapt, but the starting moments after each switch will be harder for them to deal with after having an intense battle with the last. I'm sorry, but even the best pros should still have problems adapting, especially while PT is a relatively unplayed character.

I mean, I've played people where when I played a whole stock as Ivy and tried to kill them near the end I couldnt land a killing blow, then the next time around when I swap from squirtle after pounding them with him to Ivy I kill them the first hit. Things like that often happen. Like I've said Im not the best, but I know the ability to switch gears helps tremendously.

So before crying that we have pure weaknesses in the matchups, remember that PT is special and can't only be analyzed as seperate characters. The only problem is its hard to measure this properties effect on value. PT will always be a higher tier than all three of his pokemon(if it were possible to just play them) due to this.

WOOT! That's what I said on the G&W discussion with PT XD

 

[Onxy]

Easier said than done....

 

[Shök]

Easier said than done....

Right, Marth can just start charging a shieldbreaker and then....









BOOM!

 

[Shök]

Marth is at slight disadvantage to Snake, MK and Dedede.

Snake and Dedede is very close. 55/45 In their favor. MK is 60/40 his favor, but still pretty close.

Marth vs Charzard is 60/40 at worst 55/45 at best.

Also remember that skill maters more then tiers or match-ups.

Match-ups only comes into play when both opponents are evenly matched.

So as long as you are the better player then there isn't too much to fear.

Well not too much to fear of your Charizard since the match-up is close.

But once you hit the highest level of play and all of your opponents become equal to you, I do not suggest using PT vs Marth.

Ivy and Squirtle really hurt Charizards chances for victory.

I hope you know you can up B out of D3's CG, just putting that out there.

 

[Steel]

I hope you know you can up B out of D3's CG, just putting that out there.

>_> I'm sure he knows that. However it won't work if D3 times it perfectly which most good ones will.

 

[Bomber7]

Switching out is important so that your pokemon dont get tired. They do ave stamina after all. they get slow, weak and reaction time is sucky.

 

[Bomber7]

bomber and onxy add me please!
4210-3660-2880

If you really want to fight me have me registered by Wedsnday. FC: 1977-0448-7528

 

[PkTrainerCris]

So are we moving on the next character right?.... i dont care who that is......but before that..... we should agree on the marth matchup, i suggest
squirtle -> high disadvantage
ivysaur-> slight disadvantage
charizard-> neutral
ok?

 

[Bomber7]

ehhh, sure why not, but PKT isn't all just fighting on your own, it's using all 3 pokemon to your advantage, but if it came down to it, what you said, I'd find that close enough.

 

[Charizard92]

So are we moving on the next character right?.... i dont care who that is......but before that..... we should agree on the marth matchup, i suggest
squirtle -> high disadvantage
ivysaur-> slight disadvantage
charizard-> neutral
ok?

Why not, it still says "use plan B, or C, or whatever plan Snake and Meta knight is"

 

[Elliot Gale]

... even though Meta is significantly easier than Snake, G&W, or Marth.

 

[Charizard92]

Weird huh? how the top character has a hard time against a low tier character than 4th place?

 

[Elliot Gale]

Meta isn't the top and never will be. He will drop.

 

[Charizard92]

He is in the top 3 (behind only Snake)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, I just saw the PT vs MK thread.

Do you really think Zard has advantage on MK?

Or that Ivy goes even with him?

ROFLMAO!!!!!

PT boards are FAR too hopeful.

hahahaha.

 

[Elliot Gale]

I do. Is there anything wrong with being hopeful?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will just flat out say MK beats all the pokemon.

Nothing wrong with being hopeful.

But I think objective realism is better for match-up discussion don't you think?

 

[Elliot Gale]

Ivysaur I know for sure is at a disadvantage, but it's nothing huge. Squirtle's disadvantage is only slight (ftilt being so fast really helps), so for all intensive purposes it's an even match. Charizard has the needed range, speed, and power to compete. Maybe advantage is a bit of an oversight, but he's definitely the best option.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I will just flat out say MK beats all the pokemon.

Nothing wrong with being hopeful.

But I think objective realism is better for match-up discussion don't you think?

Probably has more to do with a lack of concrete knowledge of MK then actually being overly hopeful.

But yes, no advantages to be had here.

So are we moving on the next character right?.... i dont care who that is......but before that..... we should agree on the marth matchup, i suggest
squirtle -> high disadvantage
ivysaur-> slight disadvantage
charizard-> neutral
ok?

I think numbers would be better in this case.

squirtle->20-80 Marth's advantage
Ivysaur->40-60 Marth's advantage
Charizard->55-45 Marth's advantage

The exact numbers are arguable, but I'd say it's in that realm.

Ivysaur I know for sure is at a disadvantage, but it's nothing huge. Squirtle's disadvantage is only slight (ftilt being so fast really helps), so for all intensive purposes it's an even match. Charizard has the needed range, speed, and power to compete. Maybe advantage is a bit of an oversight, but he's definitely the best option.

Squirtle has about even speed but lacks the massive disjointed hitboxes, and his advantage is the air. MK will shut him down. Really, this is the same reason that even without the release combo to death, Marth was still at the advantage against Squirtle.

Charizard... just doesn't have the range.

MK's d-tilt completely outranges everything except for the f-smash (and perhaps even it) because it's longer then all of marth's tilts, and Marth's ftilt outranges all of charizard's. The f-smash, it's FAR too punishable. Aerially, MK has way too much control, anyone's airgame vs. mk is a loss really.

So, charizard is regulated to defense, and, while he can heavily damage, has few options to punish against a well spaced MK. Sure, there's dash to rock smash, but that can be shielded. Same with shield-canceled tilts. And then he'll punish.

Really, you have to bait the big moves to be able to punish MK, and a good mk won't be using them until you're at kill percentages.

 

[Charizard92]

I said Squirtle outright sucked there, and Charizard has a better chance than you think. Meta Knight is a hit and run, style character. He beats Squirtle at this, and Ivysaur has problems. Charizard is the good option, again. However, Charizard, while he will take a beating, will not be outright killed the way he would be against Marth, or, for that matter, outright killed at all. Meta Knight can't gimp Charizard very well for two reasons:
1: Glide
2: super armor (takes damage, but doesn't flinch)

Also, Charizard has something Meta Knight doesn't do well in: range. Charizard outrages Meta Knight most of the time, as Meta's sword is a lot smaller than your's.

Also, when the numbers are close (in this case, Charizard's and Marth's are), we just estimate them to be 50-50, which is kinda close.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You may not realize this, but I'm trying to help you.

It's clear to me that the PT boards lack knowledge of other characters. You guys need to do more research and have a deep understanding of all characters, before you judge match-ups.

Notice how when I came in to this thread I knew what PT was capable of. None of you really knew what Marth could other then fair fair. See what I mean?

Know your enemy and be as objective as possible. And yes, accept that PT is most likely low tier or bottom of mid tier with alot of hard match-ups.

 

[Elliot Gale]

You may not realize this, but I'm trying to help you.

I see and appreciate that, but we can't run on what one person says and a bunch of people parrot; that's just as bad.

It's clear to me that the PT boards lack knowledge of other characters. You guys need to do more research and have a deep understanding of all characters, before you judge match-ups.

This is actually why I don't comment on match-ups I haven't extensively played myself.

Know your enemy and be as objective as possible. And yes, accept that PT is most likely low tier or bottom of mid tier with alot of hard match-ups.

Sure.

 

[Charizard92]

Uh, green without a plus in it means that the numbers are close, but lean in the Pokemon's favor by a factor of around 10 or so. Charizard has a couple of strengths against meta Knight, like range, power, and weight, not things Meta Knight likes that much. The numbers, while not as close as Charizard to Marth, are close. Green is like you can come into the pit with an advantage or two, but don't expect victory (total means you don't have to give a **** as much). If you like, you can help us by helping recruiting other boards, as they will likely have a better input than us alone. Also, the Meta Knights could be cocky...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I said Squirtle outright sucked there, and Charizard has a better chance than you think. Meta Knight is a hit and run, style character. He beats Squirtle at this, and Ivysaur has problems. Charizard is the good option, again. However, Charizard, while he will take a beating, will not be outright killed the way he would be against Marth, or, for that matter, outright killed at all. Meta Knight can't gimp Charizard very well for two reasons:
1: Glide
2: super armor (takes damage, but doesn't flinch)

The super armor affects all match-ups, but his super armor techniques are too punishable.

As for glide, metaknight owns the air. Marth beats Charizard's airgame, and we wouldn't dair trying to compete in the air. It'll help you recover horizontally, but, against MK, I don't think being able to glide will stop his edge guarding game.

Also, Charizard has something Meta Knight doesn't do well in: range. Charizard outrages Meta Knight most of the time, as Meta's sword is a lot smaller than your's.

You'd think that...

But as I said before, Marth doesn't even outrange MK, the opposite is true.

Granted, it's only the dtilt, but perfect spaced dtilts alone are more then enough to attack safely. Charizard has the same issue, mk outranges him, so he can't be on the offense. He has to camp because flamethrower and f-smash are too punishable, and MK outranges everything else on the ground.

Also, when the numbers are close (in this case, Charizard's and Marth's are), we just estimate them to be 50-50, which is kinda close.

I prefer to round up in general because, tiny or not, it's still an advantage. About 52/48, I guess would be the fairest.

I just think it more accurately describes the match-up, because even a tiny advantage is still an advantage.

But it is your board, you guys decide if you want to round up or down on this.

I see and appreciate that, but we can't run on what one person says and a bunch of people parrot; that's just as bad.

Well, it wasn't one person with other people parroting.

I checked them as well, before EL even came to the thread, I was checking in practice mode.

In general, don't take people's words for things like this. Check for yourself, it makes things more accurate.

Uh, green without a plus in it means that the numbers are close, but lean in the Pokemon's favor by a factor of around 10 or so. Charizard has a couple of strengths against meta Knight, like range, power, and weight, not things Meta Knight likes that much. The numbers, while not as close as Charizard to Marth, are close. Green is like you can come into the pit with an advantage or two, but don't expect victory (total means you don't have to give a **** as much). If you like, you can help us by helping recruiting other boards, as they will likely have a better input than us alone. Also, the Meta Knights could be cocky...

*bolding added

I'm very sorry, but MK outranges Charizard AND Marth.

It's completely ridiculous, but true.


I should pick up my charizard again and run the match-up versus some of my mk main friends.

Though, overall, it pains me to see what they did to my second favorite first-gen pokemon (charizard).