Pokedex Entry #23: Ice Climbers

[Steeler]

Their board says 55/45 advantage against both charizard and ivysaur. no data for squirtle.

sounds pretty good. it's all about avoiding the grab and separating the IC's. zard has flamethrower, which outranges blizzard (and turns it into slushy water) and rock smash which does an excellent job of separating IC's when it hits. i don't think any of your throws are quick enough to use without risking a hit. good edgeguarding tools if you separate the climbers.

ivysaur's razor leaf cuts right through icicles and blizzard, and the bair outranges everything but blizzard. but be careful, it's easy to just dash in and shield for a free grab if you aren't using it as you land. auto canceled fair is good. fsmash has range and invincibility. bthrow should be quick enough to use out of a grab, the others may be as well.

squirtle is quick and can hit their shields without getting grabbed, but blizzard is a problem. dairing them over the top is the best solution to that problem, plus the last hit is a great separator. squirtle does the best of the 3 at ****** when it separates an IC or gets a good lick in because you are much faster than they are. plus fthrow and dthrow are quick enough to use out of a throw if you buffer them. i don't know what this matchup is like...if you can separate them then it's easy pickin's, if IC's do not let you get in at all then it's tough.

 

[momochuu]

I'll give a response soon. Kinda busy at the moment. :x

 

[FrozenHobo]

we wreck ivy, go about even with zard (maybe in our favor) nd have a tough time with squirtle (slippery little *******). ivy's main pros in this matchup (razor leaf and bair) can be pretty easily avoided with bair losing to blizzard. as far as fsmash is concerned a spot dodge is generally enough to avoid/punish it. not to mention, ivy is one of the easiest characters to edge hog/gimp (and trust me, we will). ivy is also (imo) the easiest of the 3 to CG.


Zard is an interesting matchup in that he has plenty of stuff to combat us, but his size and weight make him an easy target. like you said, rock smash and flame thrower, as well as dtilt can be annoying moves, but you can't move while using flamethrower, rock smash has terrible end lag, and we can hurt you after you use dtilt (i think our ftilt might out range it by a little). plus, he's heavy, which means (as in all cases) if we get a grab, you're dead (and fairly quickly i might add). still, if you can get the momentum of the match we have some trouble getting it back (but not enough to warrant you having the advantage).


squirtle is... well he's a ninja. built like he's straight from melee the little ******* is a pain in our arses. he can move, has good attacks (his jab comes out on frame freakin' one!)and he ***** us in the air. we have blizzards and squalls, but a good squirtle will still jump circles around us. he's also light which means he's harder to CG (not by much, but you get the idea). all of this coupled with a good up b recovery make him a menace, able to take nana off the edge and STILL come back to take out popo. our major advantage in this matchup is our CGs and (if i may say so) pretty kick *** attack power.


given these observations, i would have to say....



Ivy -> 6.5:3.5 ICs

Zard -> 5.5:4.5 ICs

Squirt -> 6/6.5:4/3.5 Squirt

 

[Steeler]

interesting frozen. i thought that something was wrong when i saw that charizard and ivysaur were equal on your thread lol. i've never played a good IC's but your reasoning for squirtle advantage looks pretty solid. and charizard seems to be agreed upon by most people.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Ivy isn't wrecked by climbers, razor leaf goes through every thing they have, bair outranges everything except blizzard, and bair comes out faster anyway. Ivysaur is easy to gimp, but a great gimper herself. IC recover predictably, right into an uair kill. Instant tether the ledge when they try to recover, then release and gimp. too good. IC's can't be bullet seeded, but F-smash is still great, as is U-smash. d-tilt is great for keeping them away, as is f-tilt. Fair is so sexy, use it when they are above, in front or below you, its nice. Dair is too easy to punish, don't use it. Uair is sexy for kills, and Bair is your friend. Bair when you jump, when you land, whenever. Spacing is key in this matchup, and Bair is your best tool. Pivot grabs to B-throw work great to seperate them, and is fast enough to avoid getting punished. If you get grabbed its over, so stick to the spacing game. Recovering is key, remember to reverse razor leaf and then jump and bair a ledgehogger. Razor leaf beats their projectile, and hits both of them so use it often. This matchup is fairly even, but the IC's have a slight advantage.



45<55

 

[FrozenHobo]

Ivy isn't wrecked by climbers, razor leaf goes through every thing they have, bair outranges everything except blizzard, and bair comes out faster anyway. Ivysaur is easy to gimp, but a great gimper herself. IC recover predictably, right into an uair kill. Instant tether the ledge when they try to recover, then release and gimp. too good. IC's can't be bullet seeded, but F-smash is still great, as is U-smash. d-tilt is great for keeping them away, as is f-tilt. Fair is so sexy, use it when they are above, in front or below you, its nice. Dair is too easy to punish, don't use it. Uair is sexy for kills, and Bair is your friend. Bair when you jump, when you land, whenever. Spacing is key in this matchup, and Bair is your best tool. Pivot grabs to B-throw work great to seperate them, and is fast enough to avoid getting punished. If you get grabbed its over, so stick to the spacing game. Recovering is key, remember to reverse razor leaf and then jump and bair a ledgehogger. Razor leaf beats their projectile, and hits both of them so use it often. This matchup is fairly even, but the IC's have a slight advantage.



45<55

there are a few points you made that are fairly ridiculous:

1. you assume we would stand still long enough for you to even use usmash

2. you use ivy's dair

3. you assume we only have one recovery option

4. you think that even if you get off a bthrow nana won't hit you.

5. you seem to be under the impression that we (ab)use ice blocks.

6. you think that ivy has anything but a crap recovery.




i've spent the last YEAR playing against (essentially) only PT. he was the only person at my school who i could play nightly, and we did. by the end of the year we knew how each other played and how each of his pokes faired against ICs. we 100% agreed that ivy was essentially a stock loss. the bet you can hope for is to get a little damage and then switch or die. you space with bairs? we space with desynced blizzards (you ever seen a moving wall of ice?). you razor leaf? we sheild (honestly, its not hard). we can gimp ivy to the point where its almost sad (nana hangs from the ledge while popo taunts is the worst way to go). you'll get pretty much teh same response from every experienced IC: hate squirtle, tolerate Zard, <3333333 ivy.

 

[shinyspoon42]

there are a few points you made that are fairly ridiculous:

1. you assume we would stand still long enough for you to even use usmash

2. you use ivy's dair

3. you assume we only have one recovery option

4. you think that even if you get off a bthrow nana won't hit you.

5. you seem to be under the impression that we (ab)use ice blocks.

6. you think that ivy has anything but a crap recovery.




i've spent the last YEAR playing against (essentially) only PT. he was the only person at my school who i could play nightly, and we did. by the end of the year we knew how each other played and how each of his pokes faired against ICs. we 100% agreed that ivy was essentially a stock loss. the bet you can hope for is to get a little damage and then switch or die. you space with bairs? we space with desynced blizzards (you ever seen a moving wall of ice?). you razor leaf? we sheild (honestly, its not hard). we can gimp ivy to the point where its almost sad (nana hangs from the ledge while popo taunts is the worst way to go). you'll get pretty much teh same response from every experienced IC: hate squirtle, tolerate Zard, <3333333 ivy.

I'll reply to each of your points.

1. no, I assumed the ivy in question would use it as an attack, to attack from below with. I assumed said ivy would try to use it to punish you if you messed up, and might DACUS you at the proper time.

2. No, I said don't.

3. I assumed in general if beneath the stage, you will need to recover with Up-b. So yes, in the situation I established as you being off the stage and unable to simply jump or use squall hammer to recover, you really do only have the option to use up-b.

4. I think after a bthrow you won't be able to chaingrab me, and you will be separated.

5. I think that having a projectile, you normally make use of it. In this matchup, it prevents the use.

6. I am well aware of ivy's pathetic recovery.



I don't know how either you or your friend play, so I won't respond to your and his personal opinions. If you are spacing with desynched blizzards, then the ivy simply razorleafs (I have in fact seen a desynched blizzard before, yes) The razor leaf is obviously still taking an effect, as when you are shielding, you aren't attacking. Most of the time you won't be readily able to simply pop up your sheild when ivy razor leafs however, as ivy can grab you and punish your shield, or just throw another. And that is impressive, someone can gimp ivy. Wait, every character do that, ivy is still viable in many matchups. Its nice to see that many experienced ICs like ivysaur, I also really like ivysaur, what a coincidence.

I don't assume this is an easy matchup, or anything but an uphill battle. But this is not a massacre, ivy can fight back, and can still win. Don't be so ready to dismiss a character.

 

[T-block]

Ok so I have a bit more experience with this matchup than the last time we discussed it lol, whenever that was. Frozen looks like he knows his ****, although you may be underestimating Ivy sliiiightly. Ivy's f-tilt is nice in this matchup, especially if the IC player is being aggressive, and it's fairly safe thanks to the lean forward. N-air is also a move that you didn't mention... it's not completely safe, but I use it quite a bit against ICs. What Ivy does lack in this matchup is the ability to land any move with decent knockback, so we have no means of reliably KOing or even getting a switch without putting ourselves at huge risk. U-smash, f-smash, b-throw...all those moves are definitely not safe enough to be used against a character that can punish like the ICs. F-air and d-tilt are probably your best bets since f-air has range and autocancels, and d-tilt comes out fast, but neither of those are completely safe either. All that means is that Ivy has to play it really safe, and play to deal damage, not KO.

But this doesn't mean Ivy is useless in the matchup or anything. This whole discussion has been based off the matchup against both climbers. It's very possible that Squirtle takes out Nana before he dies, and if Squirtle is at 90% or something, I wouldn't hesitate to d-throw > switch. Ivy does well against a single climber in my experience.... chain grab and blizzard wall disappears. Ivy can more easily get the kill now, and when ICs come back, Ivy's allowed to play to deal damage, and let Charizard worry about the KO.

Basically I agree with you though >_> All I'm trying to say is that Ivy does have a role in this matchup, although a rather small and slightly sacrificial one lol. But if Squirtle does get that switch off and ICs aren't careful, Ivy can really make things a lot easier for Charizard when he gets in, since Ivy can rack up damage really well.

PT/IC
65/35 Squirtle
35/65 Ivysaur
50/50 Charizard
45/55 PT overall

looks right. Definitely not more than 55:45 either way for the overall matchup

 

[Steeler]

PT should have a slight edge in the matchup if squirtle and ivysaur are the same ratio (but inverted) and zard is even.

here's what I'D do to be gay to tip the matchup in my favor, since all three pokes do fantastic against solo IC (since solo IC is kinda balls)

let's say i kill nana with squirtle

switch and don't kill popo

get ivy in there do stuff but don't die and don't KO

switch

get zard in there and KO, then retreating flamethrower/rock smash camp like **** to safely rack up damage

now when i die, squirtle comes out fresh (assuming i took a minute between when squirt switched and zard died) and my most **** matchup is back again, with hopefully a solid percentage lead

the wonders of pokemon trainer strategy

 

[FrozenHobo]

PT should have a slight edge in the matchup if squirtle and ivysaur are the same ratio (but inverted) and zard is even.

here's what I'D do to be gay to tip the matchup in my favor, since all three pokes do fantastic against solo IC (since solo IC is kinda balls)

let's say i kill nana with squirtle

switch and don't kill popo

get ivy in there do stuff but don't die and don't KO

switch

get zard in there and KO, then retreating flamethrower/rock smash camp like **** to safely rack up damage

now when i die, squirtle comes out fresh (assuming i took a minute between when squirt switched and zard died) and my most **** matchup is back again, with hopefully a solid percentage lead

the wonders of pokemon trainer strategy

thats essentially the strategy that my friend started adopting. its a good way to leave me helpless, only he would attempt the kill with ivy against sopo as 1) our major threat is gone, 2) blizzard is now very punishable and 3) sopo is lighter than regular ICs. if you get a kill with ivy you can always just switch out while i'm falling/flying so you can have a fresh Zard waiting.

 

[T-block]

I probably did mean 55/45 for PT overall... 4am posts ftw.

I'm liking that switch order...gonna have to try it out.

 

[Steeler]

thats essentially the strategy that my friend started adopting. its a good way to leave me helpless, only he would attempt the kill with ivy against sopo as 1) our major threat is gone, 2) blizzard is now very punishable and 3) sopo is lighter than regular ICs. if you get a kill with ivy you can always just switch out while i'm falling/flying so you can have a fresh Zard waiting.

hmmmm yeah, that would probably work better (unless you really want ivy out there for as briefly as possible) because zard is fresh when ICs come back and, most importantly, you are still squirtle after you die.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ideally, you're going to want ivy out as little as possible even with sopo, but if you have an opportunity, take it. additionally, knocking one or both ICs away and then switching can sometimes be a good tactic as well.


edit: i have had WAY too much experience with this matchup. i've learned it in and out and have reached the point where i can no longer stand it. DX

 

[Eljin]

ic's cg comes in 2 play sum where tho.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ic's cg comes in 2 play sum where tho.

its why i consider the whole matchup at least 55:45 ICs. charizard/ivy are the easiest to CG and squirtle dies easy after just a few throws to up smash. also, if we can kill squirtle with nana intact the rest of your strategy starts falling apart.

 

[MaTA]

my friend mains the ices... so yeah i have a lot of experience with them.

personally with me squritle does the best then charizard then ivy. Squritle does great by jumping and keeping out of the way. can weaken shields with nice spaced bairs and d-tilt to quick jabs usually hits all the time. not to mention he can grab and throw them quick enough even with them being together. once they are separated you can destroy nana which is probably the most fun in smash. but i think 1 icee is more dangerous then 2 so just have to be careful.

Charizard has some good ways to keep them back off using flamethrower which usually does good damge if they get hit... just have to watch ices side b cause it ***** him. charizards bair is really good used when spacing and with a nicely hit rocksmash you can get them separated and do some damage... d tilt is amazing for spacing and usually pops on or another in the air if you are to close and you could even do a quick f tilt.

ivy isn't to bad but in my experience gets CG the worse even though he could survive the cg to spike the best. i can usually get out with squirtle and charizard if they mess up a bit but for some reason ivy seems the easiest to be grabbed. but razor leaf is great for keeping them away and hitting ice blocks away along with bair. does great for the ices trying to side b back to the edge. bullet seed is great if it hits because you know one of them will go in and you should have enough time to stop before you get hit. then catch them off guard with a uair and nana dies pretty fast. once their shields are down a bit you can fsmash and usually hit one of the ices out.

hmm but other then that ice's get no love.