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Pokedex Entry 14: Ness

Mangme

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When Ness is trying to recover, Squirtle can most likely keep hitting him until he can't get back to the stage. Squirtle just has to make sure not to do it too late, or he'll be blasted by PKT2
 

PkTrainerCris

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When Ness is trying to recover, Squirtle can most likely keep hitting him until he can't get back to the stage. Squirtle just has to make sure not to do it too late, or he'll be blasted by PKT2
Squirtle jus has to hit ness when hes on his second jump (and maybe psi magnet recover, idk about that, i thought it was just for lucas for someone mentioned it on this thread), the pk thunder is easy to take down with water gun, unless ness recovers under the stage where is better to throw an aerial or edgehog
 

Toby.

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It's not as simply or easy as hitting ness on his second jump. Airdodging makes returning to stage fairly straight forward.

It's like saying that grabbing the edge will let people get early gimps vs ivysaur. It's sometimes true, but if the PT player has any sense it'll be much harder.
 

Steeler

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so i played successor of raphael today. i hope he posts his insight soon. here's mine:

water gun is so good against ness. you don't even have to use it on pk thunder, just use it on his double jump so he has to pk thunder, and gimp it like every does by hitting ness as he directs the orb. water gun forces ness to use pkt from further away.

squirtle is quicker than ness at every phase, and a lot more mobile.

i think squirtle has the advantage here. ness is a bad defensive character, and that's really good for squirtle, he excels when he pressures opponents with quick, weaving attacks and movements.

ivysaur spaces ness out pretty well. ivysaur's options are just as quick as ness's, and ivysaur has a sizable range advantage. if you hold back when ness pk fires, you'll never be caught in the pillar, so that's a big positive too. bair REALLY screws with ness's approach. seriously, it's pretty bad. i think ivysaur has the advantage.

charizard i'm not really sure. i'm really bad at grab release timing and such, so i wasn't able to consistently do anything out of it except jab combo. however, since jab combo is so effective, you can jab cancel to a dtilt for the kill anyway. i think dtilt is still guaranteed, i need to test it in an offline environment after i practice some. dsmash worked a few times, but i think it's too slow...it's possible that ness can't escape though. we'll see.

anyway, outside of grab shenanigans.

ness beats charizard air to air, defo. good mobility, good aerials. luckily, charizard doesn't have to do air to air combat very often.

ness lacks safe approaches against zard. rising full hop fair is nice...but at that point, you are already in range of a grab, rock smash, tilt, or jab before you attack. fair is really the only thing i can think of, every other aerial lacks range and ness's ground approach is pretty bad. zard can grab ness in the middle of his dash attack. rock smash really bothers ness if he can't get an attack out before zard pulls the boulder out. flamethrower screws with his approach too, but it can't be used too often or ness can magnet it. as raphael said, ness can't pull it out on reaction, so he'll have to rely on prediction. ft every once in a while is effective.

pk fire. charizard has to do his absolute best because it really screws him up. pk fire is probably the best argument for advantage ness. fortunately, it doesn't travel far and ness can't space too well with it since it works differently in the air. it's not a huge hassle, but zard has to be aware of it at mid range. if zard can react/predict it, dash to shield and grab is effective. if you are caught in a pillar, smash both sticks backward as fast as you can, and you'll be able to minimize how much damage you take.

off stage, beware the dair spike. fair from slightly above is effective, since the hitstun and disjointed hitbox is effective in stopping ness's double jumping dair attempt. rock smash is also a good option. flamethrower as an edgeguard is interesting, because it'll force ness to sweetspot the ledge...and if you can predict that, cancel the ft and hog to attempt a gimp.

zard's rock smash is probably his most effective aerial approach, i think it cancels out ness's yo-yo, and as far as i know, that's ness's best move for covering up his weakspots.

all in all, i think this is about neutral.

overall, a good strategy is switching ivysaur out when ness has high damage to get the quick grab -> dtilt ko with charizard. :)
 

PkTrainerCris

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I agree with everything steeler said, and gonna give numbers IMO
squirtle 60/40 or 65/35
ivysaur 60/40 or 55/45
charizard 50/50 or 55/45
First the most close to my opinion
 

Brinzy

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Squirtle fares very well against Ness. It's really sad. Ness is too easily gimped by Squirtle. Like Steeler said, water gun can be used on his double jump to force PKT2 usage. You can also push Ness or just cancel out PK Thunder. Squirtle is faster than Ness on the ground and he has better aerial mobility. Ness's b-throw is stronger than Squirtle's d-throw, but it really doesn't matter too much, because it only takes about another 30% for Squirtle's d-throw to kill as it does for Ness's b-throw to kill Squirtle, no DI and at a sizable distance from the edge.

Ness's fair is good, but honestly, if you don't predict and time when Squirtle will be in your face, you're pretty much not going to get the hit. Squirtle's aerial attacks come out a bit too fast and has less cooldown than Ness's do. Ness's air game is probably better for raw damage, but Squirtle can easily use two aerials and get Ness off stage, where he sucks at vs. Squirtle. There isn't a place in this fight where Ness has any upper-hand on Squirtle. Squirtle's ground game is just too fast for Ness's, and he can easily compete in the air. Ness's best responses are PK attacks, but if he can't land those, then he doesn't have much else going for him.

Ivysaur. Oh my god. I knew it was going to be bad just by comparing their attacks. Anyone who thinks Ness has an advantage on Ivysaur has lost their mind (or they just think that Ness is great and Ivysaur is not). Ivysaur outranges Ness pretty badly, but of all of Ivy's ranged attacks, the real ***** is bair. It COMPLETELY halts Ness's approach. There is really nothing Ness can do it about a SH or FH bair. PK Fire probably won't hit very often, PK Thunder will get canceled out, PK Flash will not work, Ness's ground game will not reach Ivysaur, and Ness's fair gets outranged, so Ness gets trumped. The funny thing is that Ivysaur doesn't even have to use bair; he can also use any of his B moves to halt Ness. Vine Whip is basically a smash attack that reaches at 45 degrees, Bullet Seed hurts big time and stops Ness from approaching from above, and Razor Leaf is a pain, because it can be used when Ivy is closer to Ness, since it's faster (and Ivy can retreat with it). Jab is better than Ness's ground attacks well; the only things that can reach are PK Fire, PK Thunder, and maybe a properly spaced dash attack... maybe. Ivy can grab-release -> jab, too.

Off stage, yes, Ivy can be gimped. PKT2 can cut through Ivy's aerials to hit Ivy. In response, Ivy can just Razor Leaf Ness for more damage or he can Razor Leaf PKT2 and safely cut the distance. Bair -> tether is a good edgeguard, too. If Ness comes from high up, he needs to watch out for Vine Whip. Ness can fight off Ivy effectively... if he ever gets past Ivy's attacks. However, Ivy's moves that are on top of him (nair, Bullet Seed) and those that provide disjointed hitboxes (every other of Ivy's aerials) can also stop Ness. Add in a good grab range, good throws, effective nullification of the PK Fire pillar since Ivy's weak to fire, and having equal or better killing power than Ness, and you have what I'm going to call a counter.

Charizard... hahaha, Charizard. If Charizard plays defensively, he's probably not going to lose. Flamethrower racks up damage fast, edgeguards the hell outta Ness, stops a lot of Ness's approaches, and clashes with PK Fire and then just overrides it. Rock Smash is incredible to use on Ness as well; it has strong knockback and it breaks into many highly damaging rocks. If Ness hits it, it'll break on Ness and hurt him anyway. Ness's Fsmash can reflect it for insane damage on Charizard, but it doesn't really matter because this move is excellent airborne. Charizard can shieldgrab ALL of Ness's attacks. I tried a dash attack, retreating fair, and Dsmash. Charizard can reliably shieldgrab all of that. Charizard's grab and throwing game, like the other two Pokemon, is incredible. He can force a ground break and then jab Ness right out of it. I don't know if WiFi interfered with grab-release -> dtilt, because I was able to shield it. I got hit by Dsmash a few times, but I don't know if that's a true follow-up as well because I shielded that eventually, too. There's nothing Ness can do about Jab, however. Charizard doesn't even need to use his smashes in this fight. They help, but they aren't even needed.

If Ness can get past Charizard's defenses, he can do well against Charizard in the air. However, he still gets outranged for the most part, and one aerial can stop Ness easily. Edgeguarding Charizard is difficult because Fly has super armor frames near the end (and it kills, so watch out Ness). Stick to PK Thunder because it works nicely on Charizard for the most part. Ness getting edgeguarded, as with the other two Pokemon, isn't too difficult. Flamethrower will slow down PKT2, cancel out PK Thunder, and stop a lot of Ness's aerials. Fair, when sweetspotted, is pretty much a horizontal meteor. Enjoy it. Rock Smash walls Ness as well. Bair kills very quickly if Charizard connects with the flame on his tail. It's a pain for Ness to get back. However, Ness does alright up close to Charizard.


Yeah, the Ness board probably isn't going to let me come back after this, but seriously, it's not a good fight for Ness at all. It's winnable, but it's really a pain. Be glad that (currently) nobody plays PT. As time passes on, we'll have more PT players, and things will be rough for Ness.

Final verdict:

60:40 Squirtle
70:30 Ivysaur
60:40 Charizard

65:35 Pokemon Trainer.
 

Steeler

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daaaaaamn not even i thought it was that bad. although i do agree with most everything you said...

do you have the guts to post that on the ness thread? i posted my thoughts. lol.
 

PkTrainerCris

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LOL... raphael will get not simpathy from ness mains...
i thought my numbers were kinda PT-sided... lol... but who better than raphael who mains both characters to do numbers?
 

Onxy

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I've always known that Ivy had a huge advantage over Ness, lol. What is the reason Lucas has one over Ivy? All I keep reading is how she gets gimped, as usual. Any paraphrasing?
 

Brinzy

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Lucas's main advantage is having infinitely better recovery than Ness does.
 

PKNintendo

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Squirtle fares very well against Ness. It's really sad. Ness is too easily gimped by Squirtle. Like Steeler said, water gun can be used on his double jump to force PKT2 usage. You can also push Ness or just cancel out PK Thunder. Squirtle is faster than Ness on the ground and he has better aerial mobility. Ness's b-throw is stronger than Squirtle's d-throw, but it really doesn't matter too much, because it only takes about another 30% for Squirtle's d-throw to kill as it does for Ness's b-throw to kill Squirtle, no DI and at a sizable distance from the edge.

Ness's fair is good, but honestly, if you don't predict and time when Squirtle will be in your face, you're pretty much not going to get the hit. Squirtle's aerial attacks come out a bit too fast and has less cooldown than Ness's do. Ness's air game is probably better for raw damage, but Squirtle can easily use two aerials and get Ness off stage, where he sucks at vs. Squirtle. There isn't a place in this fight where Ness has any upper-hand on Squirtle. Squirtle's ground game is just too fast for Ness's, and he can easily compete in the air. Ness's best responses are PK attacks, but if he can't land those, then he doesn't have much else going for him.

Ivysaur. Oh my god. I knew it was going to be bad just by comparing their attacks. Anyone who thinks Ness has an advantage on Ivysaur has lost their mind (or they just think that Ness is great and Ivysaur is not). Ivysaur outranges Ness pretty badly, but of all of Ivy's ranged attacks, the real ***** is bair. It COMPLETELY halts Ness's approach. There is really nothing Ness can do it about a SH or FH bair. PK Fire probably won't hit very often, PK Thunder will get canceled out, PK Flash will not work, Ness's ground game will not reach Ivysaur, and Ness's fair gets outranged, so Ness gets trumped. The funny thing is that Ivysaur doesn't even have to use bair; he can also use any of his B moves to halt Ness. Vine Whip is basically a smash attack that reaches at 45 degrees, Bullet Seed hurts big time and stops Ness from approaching from above, and Razor Leaf is a pain, because it can be used when Ivy is closer to Ness, since it's faster (and Ivy can retreat with it). Jab is better than Ness's ground attacks well; the only things that can reach are PK Fire, PK Thunder, and maybe a properly spaced dash attack... maybe. Ivy can grab-release -> jab, too.

Off stage, yes, Ivy can be gimped. PKT2 can cut through Ivy's aerials to hit Ivy. In response, Ivy can just Razor Leaf Ness for more damage or he can Razor Leaf PKT2 and safely cut the distance. Bair -> tether is a good edgeguard, too. If Ness comes from high up, he needs to watch out for Vine Whip. Ness can fight off Ivy effectively... if he ever gets past Ivy's attacks. However, Ivy's moves that are on top of him (nair, Bullet Seed) and those that provide disjointed hitboxes (every other of Ivy's aerials) can also stop Ness. Add in a good grab range, good throws, effective nullification of the PK Fire pillar since Ivy's weak to fire, and having equal or better killing power than Ness, and you have what I'm going to call a counter.

Charizard... hahaha, Charizard. If Charizard plays defensively, he's probably not going to lose. Flamethrower racks up damage fast, edgeguards the hell outta Ness, stops a lot of Ness's approaches, and clashes with PK Fire and then just overrides it. Rock Smash is incredible to use on Ness as well; it has strong knockback and it breaks into many highly damaging rocks. If Ness hits it, it'll break on Ness and hurt him anyway. Ness's Fsmash can reflect it for insane damage on Charizard, but it doesn't really matter because this move is excellent airborne. Charizard can shieldgrab ALL of Ness's attacks. I tried a dash attack, retreating fair, and Dsmash. Charizard can reliably shieldgrab all of that. Charizard's grab and throwing game, like the other two Pokemon, is incredible. He can force a ground break and then jab Ness right out of it. I don't know if WiFi interfered with grab-release -> dtilt, because I was able to shield it. I got hit by Dsmash a few times, but I don't know if that's a true follow-up as well because I shielded that eventually, too. There's nothing Ness can do about Jab, however. Charizard doesn't even need to use his smashes in this fight. They help, but they aren't even needed.

If Ness can get past Charizard's defenses, he can do well against Charizard in the air. However, he still gets outranged for the most part, and one aerial can stop Ness easily. Edgeguarding Charizard is difficult because Fly has super armor frames near the end (and it kills, so watch out Ness). Stick to PK Thunder because it works nicely on Charizard for the most part. Ness getting edgeguarded, as with the other two Pokemon, isn't too difficult. Flamethrower will slow down PKT2, cancel out PK Thunder, and stop a lot of Ness's aerials. Fair, when sweetspotted, is pretty much a horizontal meteor. Enjoy it. Rock Smash walls Ness as well. Bair kills very quickly if Charizard connects with the flame on his tail. It's a pain for Ness to get back. However, Ness does alright up close to Charizard.


Yeah, the Ness board probably isn't going to let me come back after this, but seriously, it's not a good fight for Ness at all. It's winnable, but it's really a pain. Be glad that (currently) nobody plays PT. As time passes on, we'll have more PT players, and things will be rough for Ness.

Final verdict:

60:40 Squirtle
70:30 Ivysaur
60:40 Charizard

65:35 Pokemon Trainer.
Well, I've trusted you in in the past so... This must be right. **** I better get away from PT period. :(

Ivysaur's anti air tactics really are annoying.
I can still welcome you the Ness boards with open arms.:laugh:

Onxy, are you playing the japanese version? Ivysaur is male in the US version and female in the JP version.
 

Brinzy

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I mean, I could be wrong, but I swear that the fight is always an uphill battle.
 

PKNintendo

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I mean, I could be wrong, but I swear that the fight is always an uphill battle.
Tell me about it.

I agree whole heartedly with Charizard and Ivy, but I always thought squirt was in the 55-45 range. (or maybe 5-5) but maybe that's my Ness bias speaking. :laugh:
 

Brinzy

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It could be, but I swear, my Squirtle has gimped Ness ridiculously easily and my Ness gets gimped by Squirtle ridiculously easy, and he doesn't even have to use Water Gun - 1-2 aerials off-stage and then hovering around Ness to take the PKT is all it takes. It's very annoying.

Whenever a character can do that, it means incredibly bad news for Ness. Jigglypuff, especially in Melee, DESTROYED Ness mainly for that very reason. The only ones that really can't effectively do it on Ness are characters with very poor aerial mobility (Charizard, DDD) and characters with poor recovery (Ganondorf, Link).

The match was even in my eyes until I realized that Squirtle was gimping me once per match, even though I tried to come back high and low.
 

PkTrainerCris

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I see what onxy tries to say... with ivy being the closest thing we have found to a hard counter versus ness, then she shouldnt have too much problem against lucas... of course lucas and ness have diferent playstiles, but they are "luigified" characters and are somewhat similiars... the diferences between ness and lucas dont seem enough to put such an big diference between theri matchups against ivy (from close to 30:70 to 65:35 according some lucas' mains)... yes, lucas has more range, but its still outranged, pk fire turns dangerous, but its just one attack, and lucas' recovery is better, but ivysaur had a big advantage on ness even if ness would have a good recovery
 

Blackbelt

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I love the fact that people are discussing the Luicas matchup here instead of in the thread that was made to discuss this matchup.
 

Brinzy

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D'oh well.

That's not really having an advantage on Ivysaur there =/
The point is that Ivysaur edgeguarding Ness very easily is part of what my score comes from. By taking that way, Ivysaur isn't as effective at that.
 

Onxy

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But I'm asking why Lucas has the advantage verses Ivysaur.

I'm starting to think that Ivysaur is really getting the shaft with these matchup debates =/ People are only talking about Bullet Seed when it comes to Ivysaur, like Ivysaur is nothing but Bullet Seed.
 

Blackbelt

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But I'm asking why Lucas has the advantage verses Ivysaur.

I'm starting to think Ivysaur is really getting the shaft with these matchup debates =/
Well, present your side of the story in either the Lucas' PT discussion or the PT's Lucas discussion, and we can get a dialouge going.
 

Onxy

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I'll post there, but I only want to know what Lucas has over Ivysaur besides recovery..
 

PkTrainerCris

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D'oh well.



The point is that Ivysaur edgeguarding Ness very easily is part of what my score comes from. By taking that way, Ivysaur isn't as effective at that.
I think it is a small part of ivy's advantage, i mean, ivy doesn't excel at gimping ness, hes just ok doing it... he excels on stopping his approaches and putting presure on him... and unless the first one is aplicable on lucas IMO
 

Brinzy

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I'm not saying that Ivysaur is gimps only and that Lucas has an advantage.

I'm saying that the mere FACT that Lucas > Ness in terms of recovery alone is reason enough for me to give it less than 70:30 Ivy. This does NOT mean I think it's Lucas's advantage.
 

Steeler

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i think it's 60:40 ivysaur's advantage...lucas and ivysaur have very similar playstyles. however, ivysaur is a superior camper and has superior range and defensive options...so basically, ivysaur will force lucas to approach, and since lucas has an average at best approach...

lucas can kill better though. and does a little better at a very close distance. the thing is that it'll be difficult for lucas to get there.
 

PSI Locke22

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the best strategy would be to utilize ivy at far distance to force lucas to close combat and throw or ftilt when he is in range
 

infernovia

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I wanna know what kind of Ness you guys are playing. Ness can recover from below the stage where watergun is not \ an issuebecause squirtle's average vertical recovery forbids him from trying to gimp. Watergun will force him to do a vertical recovery but good luck interrupting it.
 

Levitas

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i think it's 60:40 ivysaur's advantage...lucas and ivysaur have very similar playstyles.
The only similarity is big upsmash and campy side b. really. that's it.

however, ivysaur is a superior camper and has superior range and defensive options...
against Ness.

so basically, ivysaur will force lucas to approach, and since lucas has an average at best approach...
he has a sub par approach, but ivy doesn't really force lucas to approach with razor leaf, he tries to force with bair and dtilt imo. razor leaf isn't fast enough not to be reflected reliably with a 14 frame fsmash. and bair and dtilt leave openings.

lucas can kill better though. and does a little better at a very close distance. the thing is that it'll be difficult for lucas to get there.
Honestly, I think that ivy has a superior kill game against most characters with his uair. I really do.

You also neglected to mention lucas's nuts recovery far outclassing ivy's.
 

Steeler

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i was really really confused after reading levitas's post and thought this was the lucas discussion lol. i mean, it's my fault for continuing the lucas comparison, but ya. i think its much more important that lucas recovery is far superior to ness.

anyway, whenever we discuss ivysaur vs insert any character, it's assumed character has a better recovery. :laugh:

i think bair/dtilt/ftilt/razor leaf are all useful and have their place when forcing an approach. i wonder what you mean by openings left by bair and dtilt, since bair covers a huge semi circle arc around ivysaur's body and quickly leads into tilts or another bair, while dtilt is a 4 (?) frame ground slap with good range. ftilt is usually preferred, unless ivy is pressed to react since dtilt is slightly quicker.
 

Levitas

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Dtilt may hit on frame 4 (or whatever) but a predicted Dtilt is any aerial the opposing character wants (or a dashing perfect shield to grab)

Bair has an opening upon landing, but this is yomi based.

zoning tools do have openings, this is a fact. And it's character independant for the most part.
 

PkTrainerCris

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You cant mention prediction on a character matchup... that depends of the player's skill, the fact is that dtilt is a very quick, more ranged than everytihng lucas has ans iwth low postlag move
And bair has zero lag on landing
 

Brinzy

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I wanna know what kind of Ness you guys are playing. Ness can recover from below the stage where watergun is not \ an issuebecause squirtle's average vertical recovery forbids him from trying to gimp. Watergun will force him to do a vertical recovery but good luck interrupting it.
Because, really, it's hard to run off the stage to be in the way of PKT and eat that... or to just footstool -> edgehog Ness, while retaining your midair jump and your Up B.

Truly, it is!
 

Steeler

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something i've mulled over is jumping off stage, facing the stage, and aiming a water gun down to a ness using pkt directly under the edge.
 

Levitas

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You cant mention prediction on a character matchup... that depends of the player's skill, the fact is that dtilt is a very quick, more ranged than everytihng lucas has ans iwth low postlag move
And bair has zero lag on landing
You very much can mention prediction. You just can't say something along the lines of "advantage because of prediction"

A move like marth's up b would be ridiculous according to matchup discussions if prediction couldn't be taken into account.

It's in the game, but cannot be counted on working every time. Just the more those kinds of moves get used, the less reliable they are.
 
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