Pokedex Entry 14: Ness

[Brinzy]

Colin, if you mean to tell me that Charizard does less per unit distance of stage, then you're assuming that Ness is getting chained across a significant portion of the stage, like half of it. That's not going to happen. Ness is only going to get caught in 2-3 grabs and that's it. It doesn't matter the distance that he travels with both characters because they're not going to travel at a significant enough distance for it to matter.

Charizard is a big target for PK Thunder, yes... but that isn't enough to wreck Charizard.

Squirtle tears through Ness's defenses and only has to contend with avoiding fair and landing everything else first... and not getting grabbed.

Ivysaur is tough on Ness.

 

[ColinJF]

The distance thing does matter because it means where Marth might be able to get in, say, three regrabs (near the edge), Charizard might be able to get in one (these are just guesses). You can argue this is a pretty small difference if you want, but I consider it significant.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Dude please play a PT someday... Charizard is a big target for pk thunder, but that doesnt matter too much because it doesnt do too much damage, leaves ness totally open and its risky at medium range, where charizard will always be ... btw, charizard's big size is better for letting the pk thunder hit you when ness is trying to recover, so he falls to his doom, anyway ness is very gimpable and charizard is very good at gimping, so this is only one of the ways charizard will gimp you... about pkT2(if thats what you meant).. charizard can roll on front and punish, charizard cares a lot more about pk fire
gimping ness with water gun is easy for squirtle, just throw ness offstage, if he can recover with the double jump hit him again, and if he doesnt.. well ness is already done, gimping ness with water gun is just too easy
Of course, ness has things going for him, but right now i focus on showing PTs advantages on this matchup

 

[ColinJF]

I have played versus pokemon trainer, but you probably haven't played versus a competent Ness if you are regularly gimping him, especially with water gun (what a joke).

When I said pk thunder I meant both pk thunder 1 (which is probably not as easy to deal with as you imagine) and pk thunder 2 (which Ness will only use against you in the air so rolling is not an option here).

 

[Adriel]

Ness isn't gonna be regularly gimped by Squirtle, but the fact that Squirtle can use Water Gun against Ness does limit his recovery somewhat.

 

[Brinzy]

Marth getting three re-grabs at the edge...?

Ok, I dunno how much Marth's throws do (EDIT: I found out and forgot to delete this), but let's say he pummels Ness three times each time before Ness breaks. (2 x 3) x 4 = 24, or we can do 22 + Marth's f-throw (4%), which is more than 2% and sets up edgeguarding, so 26% altogether.

Charizard does... one re-grab, we'll say, for you. He pummels Ness... three times, for the sake of ignoring the possibility of Zard getting a fourth pummel in even though he pummels a bit better than Marth. (2 x 3) x 2 = 12, or we can do 10 + Zard's F-throw (10%), since that would also set up edgeguarding. That's 20%.

In both situations, I removed the final pummel for a throw. The difference between the two, even though Marth gets TWICE as many pummeling chains than Charizard does, is only 6%. Zard's f-throw has KO potential and it throws Ness out fairly far.

No, 6% from Marth getting more throws in + his f-throw for edgeguarding is not that much more significant than Zard doing the same thing with half the number of grabs.

 

[ColinJF]

It seems significant to me. By the way I don't stand at the literal edge of the stage, just close to it. I don't know about you. I used to stand at the literal edge, but I don't think that's a particularly good strategy anymore (it's a bit too limiting to stand at the literal edge).

Anyway I concede I exaggerated the difference a bit in my frustration with people making a big deal out of the grab release but there is a difference, and Ness does well versus Charizard. Grab release doesn't matter much in this match up.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Water Gun is actually pretty effective versus Ness. You don't even have to hit Ness with it; as long as you hit PKT1 with the water at least once, its canceled and Ness goes into freefall.

PKT1 is not a particularly difficult attack for Charizard to block on the ground. Its primary use for the Ness player should be to keep Charizard juggled above Ness in the air. In this regard, PKT1 serves Ness pretty well. He has a real advantage from below Charizard, like most other characters.

 

[Brinzy]

It seems significant to me. By the way I don't stand at the literal edge of the stage, just close to it. I don't know about you. I used to stand at the literal edge, but I don't think that's a particularly good strategy anymore (it's a bit too limiting to stand at the literal edge).

Anyway I concede I exaggerated the difference a bit but there is a difference, and Ness does well versus Charizard. Grab release doesn't matter much in this match up.

Ok, you don't stand at the "literal edge" (which I deduced because Marth was grabbing Ness four times, hypothetically, in your situation).

The grab-release doesn't mean much in terms of how damaging it is to Ness, but... it's basically grab -> (ground-release) -> dtilt for a sure chance at KOing Ness with dtilt. It's still there, but we've already agreed for the most part to debate this without factoring that in first.

 

[Gaussis]

Water Gun is actually pretty effective versus Ness. You don't even have to hit Ness with it; as long as you hit PKT1 with the water at least once, its canceled and Ness goes into freefall.

PKT1 is not a particularly difficult attack for Charizard to block on the ground. Its primary use for the Ness player should be to keep Charizard juggled above Ness in the air. In this regard, PKT1 serves Ness pretty well. He has a real advantage from below Charizard, like most other characters.

You can't hit Ness with water if he recovers from directly under the stage. Also, you would first have to get rid of his second jump (situational) and make him use his PSI magnet up already. This is situational at best.

I laugh at this. Did you know that PKT can do a strange effect we called the shield scrape? It can be used to tailwhip the shield until your shield is too small to protect you from the stun. From that point, the head is redirected towards Charizard and pops him into the air. It isn't as blockable as you imagine.

We do use PKT for juggling. However, it best serves as a mindgame tool.

 

[Brinzy]

There's no need to try and ridicule Retro. It's kinda foolish to ask a non-Ness player about what Ness can do and a non-PT player what PT can do.

(Hint: roll past the stupid lightning.)

inb4 "but you can do this with PKT" (since you know, PT should be on Ness's behind the whole time)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

So... lets discuss about the real matchup without the grab release part, we all know it means a death when ness is grabbed at high percents and still discussiong it has no point and its a big waste of time IMO
So... range, on the ground, charizard is outrange ness (even without counting flamethrower, its almost useless on this matchup because of ps magnet), on the air ness does better, but its not overwhelming because charizard has his bair, shieldgrab is good againt ness, im just not sure if you can shieldgrab the bair or fair (i dont think so) but you can run-shield slide-grab it, rock smash is not too efective again because ps magnet, but it does have its uses
Overall, i think its 60-40 or 65-35 for zard

 

[Steeler]

psi magnet can't absorb rock smash, if that's what you were suggesting cris.

i have a question for nesses. does ness prefer to be on the offensive or defensive? what are ness's defensive options?

 

[maskeXD]

Death Grab has just been broken!!!!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201575

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ttIB7A0

Steeler, I play much more on the defensive side. I kinda run away from the enemy and strike when he lets me. Or I aproach with PK Fire. Zard and Squirt really suffer because of this. You can easilly chain 3 PK fires on them and follow it with a grab. Also, Squirt suffers with PH Thunder juggling as much as Jiggly. And, with this new grab escape, my bro's Zard is really getting ***-kicked. I say Zard loses around 60-40, Squirt is 50-50 (it still has its WG) and Ivy wins 60-40.

PT is my second main, so I tried to be fair.

 

[Steeler]

but has that been tested with charizard's grab? marth and charizard don't have the same exact grab yanno...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

@ Steeler... i thought it absorbed the shards, so if it doesnt its one more reason to give charizard the upper hand
@ maskeXD.. i saw the video, and it seems like charizard can grab ness on that range, you know, marth's grab range is 3/4 of charizards grab range.. and ness is still vulnerable to tipped ftilt and dtilt, which is the reason why the grab release gives a real advantage (not that stupid infinite pummel over and over)

 

[Steeler]

anyway, i'm definitely up for some matches with anyone.

 

[Brinzy]

So... range, on the ground, charizard is outrange ness (even without counting flamethrower, its almost useless on this matchup because of ps magnet), on the air ness does better, but its not overwhelming because charizard has his bair, shieldgrab is good againt ness, im just not sure if you can shieldgrab the bair or fair (i dont think so) but you can run-shield slide-grab it, rock smash is not too efective again because ps magnet, but it does have its uses
Overall, i think its 60-40 or 65-35 for zard

PSI Magnet is Ness's most overrated move. Unless you're holding up a big sign that says "HAI ABSORB THIS", Ness isn't going to PSI Magnet it. All you have to do is play like you have a third of a brain and he shouldn't EVER get out PSI Magnet in time. He can't pull it out while he's caught up in Flamethrower either.

You might not be able to shieldgrab a retreating fair, but you can shieldgrab bair unless he hit right on top of Charizard and Charizard is still in shieldstun... because I think his nair can break that up.

PSI Magnet does not absorb Rock Smash.

i have a question for nesses. does ness prefer to be on the offensive or defensive? what are ness's defensive options?

Ness defenses are made up of PK Thunder, PF Fire, retreating aerials (mainly walling with fair), shields and spotdodges, and just throwing an opponent away with F-throw to try and PK Thunder spam. In other words, he isn't a good defensive character.

He want to get right on top of you so he can string aerials and wreck havoc on you that way. He wants to grab you and throw you to either set up a combo or to b-throw. He wants you off stage so he can employ his good gimping abilities. He wants to connect with PK Fire to get a relatively easy follow-up out of it. He's basically a character all about stringing together attacks. His main killing moves are his b-throw, his aerials, and his bat, though things such as his ftilt and his Dsmash can also KO.

He loves the air, and his ground game is basically designed you get you there. Stay grounded, and he doesn't do too well. Dash attack, Usmash, utilt, Uthrow, and d-throw set you up so he can chase you in the air. Bad DI allows other moves to get you airborne long enough for him to chase you.




And FINALLY, I've been dying to do some playing. Play me, steeler?

 

[Gaussis]

I apologize for sounding a bit snobbish. I am not ignorant on PT's options, and I do realize that certain things can't work at times, but PKT is always viable vs Charizard in my experience.

@Ralph, I don't think you can roll. I'll test this just to be sure, but the shield scrape locks you in position. You can't put the shield down, so you effectively dwindle your own shield. Even if you could roll, it's all a matter of chasing.

There is no point in using PSI magnet. Flamethrower does little damage and recovers very little. Nothing else can be absorbed (I wish his fair could be, similar to ZSS's dsmash).

@Steeler: Ness's playstyle really depends on the situation. If you play one way only, Ness will suffer for the most part. It varies even more here, since PT is three characters instead of one. I'll give how I play against PT.

-Squirtle: Definitely offensive. In my experiences, a defensive Ness falls apart very easily to squirtle. He has to bring the fight to squirtle as well. His best way of doing this is his nair. It's a 4-frame startup that lasts the entire animation and covers his whole body. Squirtle lacks disjointed hitboxes to the best of my knowledge, so this is one move that puts Ness on equal footing against him.

-Ivysaur: I did have one for Ivysaur, but I felt like experimenting so I'll come back to this one.

-Charizard: It has to be between pseudo-offensive to defensive. I'm not sure how grab-release factors in (if you notice the link above, Ness can break successfully from Marth) so I'll have to re-evaluate my thoughts on this.

EDIT: I'll do some playing too in around 30 minutes. I need to experiment several things.

 

[Brinzy]

30 minutes then.

(Been dying to play this match-up.)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Flamethrower can do decent damage even to someone like ness, so i will put it back on charizard's options
Squirtle has aerial speed and his aerials come out really fast, idk about frame data, oh, and the tail on his bair is disjointed, i think squirtle>ness on the air, whats your opinion??

 

[Gaussis]

After playing Ralph, I can safely say that it's even. Nair can hold Squirtle off really well while Squirtle can choose not to commit to attacks. It basically becomes a mindgame.
Ness: Will Squirtle attack?
Squirtle (or PT for that matter): Can I be sure that Ness's Nair won't hurt me?

On the ground, it really depends. Squirtle doesn't seem to have much range on the ground except for his jab (which are very fast) and his grab. Then again, Ness doesn't have his faster attacks on the ground with the exception of jab, dtilt and utilt (they lack a bit of range). IDK but it seems that they would be uncomfortable against each other on the ground.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Squirtles ground game is pretty good, he lacks range, but his ftilt is quick and has decent range, his grab range is the same as marth, and his throws are good
btw... how does ness' Nair behave against squirtles Dair and Uair?

 

[Gaussis]

I didn't get hit by uair too much. Against dair, I would rather use utilt than nair. Utilt reaches upward much more than the animation implies. IIRC, both dair and nair trade hits, though. In fact, most of Squirtle's aerials will trade hits (with the exception of bair and maybe fair, not so sure).

 

[PkTrainerCris]

idk, i think Dair has a very good priority, so there is the cance it goes throught, and i was talking about the dair on an aerial combat (both on the air),about utilt again i think dair putprioritizes, but im not sure, i don think ness's nair is gonna defend him against squirtle uair, but and airdodge can get it down and ness is not gonna be juggled too much by it, so its not that big deal

 

[Brinzy]

Ness's utilt overrides Squirtle's dair for the most part.

I didn't really use dair all too much in this match, because with Ness you have to be sure you can land it, and on a moving Ness, that's much easier said than done. Squirtle's aerials are pretty similar to Ness's, except

-they have different fairs
-Ness's dair is a meteor, while Squirtle's is multi-hit
-Ness's aerials are generally stronger

Otherwise, they're pretty much even in the air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Do you play either character? I'm just asking.

Does it matter that I don't play either character?

Whether or not you main a character doesn't mean anything except that you invest more time in specific characters when playing other people.

Anyhow, to go more in depth in specific matchups, I dunno about numbers, but here is what I see going on:

vs Squirtle:
I'd say both go toe to toe in the air. Squirtle wins a bit in mobility and has a more versatile aerial moveset. However it is held back a bit by Ness's F-air which does have very good priority. On the ground, both will be aiming to get throw kills. If either goes off stage, there should also be **** going on.

vs Ivysaur:
Neither character is that good at camping each other out. Ivysaur has a bit more range on Razor Leaf, but I'm not sure if PK Fire cancels it out. This matchup however comes down to gimps and edgeguarding. Ness's PK Thunder is probably not too hard for Ivysaur to intercept due to how telegraphed it is. Likewise however, Ivysaur isn't safe off stage either.

vs Charizard:
Ness has some control in this matchup in the air. Charizard needs to think twice before using Flamethrower on Ness due to PSI magnet. He does however outrange Ness on most attacks. Ness can't KO Charizard reliably at all really though unless he gets a B-throw on him or a well-timed edgeguard with D-air.

I dunno about you, but it sounds pretty neutral to me in general.

 

[Levitas]

A2ZOMG, I have this feeling that you don't know how ness plays. What are his three perferred approach options on the ground, and what do they all have in common? Which aerial is the safest on shield if you screw up and get too close to the opponent?

However, you're right that it's a fairly neutral matchup in general. Ness beats Ivy and Squirtle, but not by a huge margin. Charizard makes up for it with his grab stuff.

 

[Brinzy]

Does it matter that I don't play either character?

Whether or not you main a character doesn't mean anything except that you invest more time in specific characters when playing other people.

Stuff

Yes.

Based off of what you just wrote, you need to at least KNOW how the characters function before you just start posting stuff.

vs Squirtle:
I'd say both go toe to toe in the air. Squirtle wins a bit in mobility and has a more versatile aerial moveset. However it is held back a bit by Ness's F-air which does have very good priority. On the ground, both will be aiming to get throw kills. If either goes off stage, there should also be **** going on.

Probably your most correct statement, except bear in mind that Squirtle's d-throw is a great option but is equally challenged by just flat out gimping Ness or by Usmash.

vs Ivysaur:
Neither character is that good at camping each other out. Ivysaur has a bit more range on Razor Leaf, but I'm not sure if PK Fire cancels it out. This matchup however comes down to gimps and edgeguarding. Ness's PK Thunder is probably not too hard for Ivysaur to intercept due to how telegraphed it is. Likewise however, Ivysaur isn't safe off stage either.

PK Fire cancels it.

There's a lot more to this match-up than "gimps and edgeguarding." Did you talk about how Ivysaur makes approaching for Ness complete hell? Did you think for a moment that PK Thunder itself isn't exactly telegraphed? How about the fact that Ivy has a relatively strong b-throw and u-throw, both which can KO Ness? How about the fact that Ivy's jab outranges anything that isn't "PK" for Ness?

If this match-up was based off of edgeguarding and gimping, it'd be 50:50 just for those reasons. If it's still 50:50 on its own, then they should be evenly matched for the most part elsewhere... but they aren't. Unless they're at very close range, Ivy wins on the ground, period. Unless Ness is at very close range, he probably needs to catch Ivy offguard because Ivy's bair completely outranges everything that Ness can do, and his other aerials have considerable range on them, stopping/outranging some and trading with others. How well Ivy can control Ness vs. how often Ness can get Ivy in the air and avoid being walled off are the main deciding factors, not just gimps and edgeguarding.

vs Charizard:
Ness has some control in this matchup in the air. Charizard needs to think twice before using Flamethrower on Ness due to PSI magnet. He does however outrange Ness on most attacks. Ness can't KO Charizard reliably at all really though unless he gets a B-throw on him or a well-timed edgeguard with D-air.

PSI Magnet is, read it, worthless. Unless Charizard deliberately sits there and holds it out for Ness or unless that Ness is psychic (lol), he's not absorbing Flamethrower. Ever. All it can do is help with recovery.

Ness does great... when he gets past Charizard's defensive game. Otherwise, Charizard pretty much has the upper hand the whole fight. Ness should employ PK Thunders 1 and 2 wisely to off Zard quickly. Otherwise, good luck on the ground to Ness. His aerial game is the only thing that's not putting this in a blatant advantage to Charizard. I still say Charizard has the upper hand, however.

I dunno about you, but it sounds pretty neutral to me in general.

I started with a horribly high and harsh number, but I'm looking somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40 PT now. At first, I was thinking somewhere around even, but... if it's even vs. Squirtle, then looking at Ivy and Charizard, I can't see Ness picking up any form of advantage here.

Also, I really WAS just asking, because I wanted to play your ___ with ___, but since you had to go off like that and pull that "IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE I CAN STILL TALK" crap + added something that shows that you really don't know the match-up enough to be putting in much of anything that's been new (in fact, everything you said that was true is common knowledge, while the rest was just on-paper, non-sensual crap), I really don't care for your opinion on this at all anymore, and if you don't sound credible enough to me, then what makes you think anyone else is going to care?

 

[Steeler]

i think ness is going to really hate approaching ivysaur, and since ness apparently isn't a defensive-oriented character, i'd say ivysaur has the advantage. bair beats ness fair, and its his aerial with best priority.

if ivysaur wants to approach, i don't think ness will be able to effectively counter it most of the time. razor leaf is a nice way to open up the approach, and ness cannot psi magnet it, only fsmash it...and fsmash leaves ness vulnerable if he predicts wrong, so i don't think that's very effective. ivy outranges ness on the ground as well, with jab/dtilt/ftilt/grab.

but anyway. i'll be up for some wifi friendlies tomorrow. although i'd prefer a different pt focus on using ivy in this matchup, my ivy is decent at best.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes.

Based off of what you just wrote, you need to at least KNOW how the characters function before you just start posting stuff.

Just cause I don't main a character doesn't mean I don't know a thing about a character.

If your statement was true for everyone, doing matchup analysis would be impossible, but that's not how things work now eh?

There's a lot more to this match-up than "gimps and edgeguarding." Did you talk about how Ivysaur makes approaching for Ness complete hell? Did you think for a moment that PK Thunder itself isn't exactly telegraphed? How about the fact that Ivy has a relatively strong b-throw and u-throw, both which can KO Ness? How about the fact that Ivy's jab outranges anything that isn't "PK" for Ness?

Not sure if "complete hell" is accurate, but Ness does suck anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if that gives Ivysaur the advantage vs Ness since Ness is the kind of character that only has F-air and B-throw.

But really, Ness does have good mobility and range on several moves, and his grab range is also better than you would expect.

As for PK Thunder, if Ness is close enough, Ivysaur should just be able to B-air and either hit Ness away or kill his PK Thunder. If he's further away, Ivysaur should attempt an edgehog, which isn't hard at all.

PSI Magnet is, read it, worthless. Unless Charizard deliberately sits there and holds it out for Ness or unless that Ness is psychic (lol), he's not absorbing Flamethrower. Ever. All it can do is help with recovery.

Well, you just said it. Basically Charizard needs to think twice before using Flamethrower, because in actual practice, you would expect a Ness player to pick up on your patterns and read when you would likely use Flamethrower. If he does absorb it, it's always worth it for him considering PSI magnet returns quite a lot of health. The startup on Flamethrower is not unreadable.

Ness does great... when he gets past Charizard's defensive game. Otherwise, Charizard pretty much has the upper hand the whole fight. Ness should employ PK Thunders 1 and 2 wisely to off Zard quickly. Otherwise, good luck on the ground to Ness. His aerial game is the only thing that's not putting this in a blatant advantage to Charizard. I still say Charizard has the upper hand, however.

Sounds plausible enough since Charizard probably has Jab and Tilt OOS against Ness, although I don't think you're going to punish an F-air if he spaces it right.

 

[Brinzy]

Just cause I don't main a character doesn't mean I don't know a thing about a character.

If your statement was true for everyone, doing matchup analysis would be impossible, but that's not how things work now eh?

Did I say that? Ever?

I said that if you're going to determine how a match-up can go, you need to learn a lot more about the character, and you're still proving that you don't know enough about the character to make a good enough justification on it. Sure, it's your opinion, but if you don't even know how the characters work, then don't even bother trying to act like you're just as entitled to a match-up talk as someone who knows what's going on. I know what G&W's moves do... but, assuming you do play G&W, you should have more weight in a discussion about his match-ups than I ever should.

Here, lemme show you exactly what I'm talking about.

J
Not sure if "complete hell" is accurate, but Ness does suck anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if that gives Ivysaur the advantage vs Ness since Ness is the kind of character that only has F-air and B-throw.

But really, Ness does have good mobility and range on several moves, and his grab range is also better than you would expect.

As for PK Thunder, if Ness is close enough, Ivysaur should just be able to B-air and either hit Ness away or kill his PK Thunder. If he's further away, Ivysaur should attempt an edgehog, which isn't hard at all.

First part, saying a character sucks or if a character is good is completely worthless in a match-up. Yoshi is, at best, an average character. Does he get blown out by MK because of who MK is? Apparently he doesn't, but wait, he's below PT and Ness on the tier list! It doesn't add up like that.

Ness has WAY more than fair and b-throw. ALL of his aerials are good. Anyone who has played the character for at least two hours could tell you that all of his aerials, not just fair, are good. He has far more than fair in the air. B-throw is a kill move. That's it. F-throw is excellent for edgeguarding because it throws at a relatively set distance and it deals nice damage. D-throw can put opponents aerial. So can u-throw. None of his throws are particularly weak, and all can find some usage. That's far more than just "b-throw." Statements like that are why I am not really taking your analysis on this serious at all.

His grab range being good matters very little because he's only going to be close to Ivysaur in the first place when Ivysaur is in some kind of downtime. Being good is a plus, but it doesn't matter - if someone can't move, run in and grab at the right distance.

Ness shouldn't be in bair's range when using PK Thunder unless Ness is recovering or if he just messes up. Ness also uses Up B when he's on the stage, too! When you originally said "PK Thunder", that implies the electric projectile, not when he blasts into himself. The projectile is very far from telepgraphed. PK Thunder 2, PK Cannonblast, I don't care; use anything but just "PK Thunder", because Ness players mean the projectile when they say "PK Thunder." As for PK thunder 2, what you were talking about the whole time, Ivysaur isn't going to have enough time to jump out and bair. Ness will cut through it and hit Ivy. He might as well stay on stage and throw Razor Leaf to force Ness to recover from below. Not to mention, unless Ness just completely messes up on his angle, you have to actually knock him a sizeable distance away from the stage if you want to edgehog him, which means Ivysaur needs to aerial him back out there. It's a lot easier said than done.

Well, you just said it. Basically Charizard needs to think twice before using Flamethrower, because in actual practice, you would expect a Ness player to pick up on your patterns and read when you would likely use Flamethrower. If he does absorb it, it's always worth it for him considering PSI magnet returns quite a lot of health. The startup on Flamethrower is not unreadable.

Hang on, what part of my post implied exactly the same thing you said? I said,

"Unless Charizard is stupid or if Ness can read minds, Flamethrower will not be absorbed."

You said,

"Charizard will have to think twice before using Flamethrower."

That's not the same thing at all. In my situation, you either have to get it by fluke or get it by your opponent's stupidity. In your situation, you're saying that the Charizard has to watch out for PSI Magnet, when in reality, in all situations, Ness has to watch out for the opponent if he wants to try and absorb anything. PSI Magnet comes up a bit slow, which adds onto your own reaction timing. Charizard's Flamethrower comes out at max range in about half a second. That's not enough time for Ness to get it on reaction. He can only get it by prediction, and I have never had a Ness (or Lucas or G&W) absorb my Flamethrower because they typically don't down B in point-blank range in hopes of absorption. (Lucas will only do it to use it as an attack.)

The start-up of Flamethrower isn't unreadable, but it is by no means easy to read, which is what you're implying by thinking that PSI Magnet counters Flamethrower. That's asinine.

Sounds plausible enough since Charizard probably has Jab and Tilt OOS against Ness, although I don't think you're going to punish an F-air if he spaces it right.

Yes, that's why I said he does great once Ness gets past all of that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness has WAY more than fair and b-throw. ALL of his aerials are good. Anyone who has played the character for at least two hours could tell you that all of his aerials, not just fair, are good. He has far more than fair in the air. B-throw is a kill move. That's it. F-throw is excellent for edgeguarding because it throws at a relatively set distance and it deals nice damage. D-throw can put opponents aerial. So can u-throw. None of his throws are particularly weak, and all can find some usage. That's far more than just "b-throw." Statements like that are why I am not really taking your analysis on this serious at all.

No you're wrong. The only two attacks that actually make Ness a threat are F-air and B-throw. And to a lesser extend Dash attack IIRC.

If any character has a fairly clear answer around those two attacks, it sucks a lot for Ness.

Ness shouldn't be in bair's range when using PK Thunder unless Ness is recovering or if he just messes up. Ness also uses Up B when he's on the stage, too! When you originally said "PK Thunder", that implies the electric projectile, not when he blasts into himself. The projectile is very far from telepgraphed. PK Thunder 2, PK Cannonblast, I don't care; use anything but just "PK Thunder", because Ness players mean the projectile when they say "PK Thunder." As for PK thunder 2, what you were talking about the whole time, Ivysaur isn't going to have enough time to jump out and bair. Ness will cut through it and hit Ivy. He might as well stay on stage and throw Razor Leaf to force Ness to recover from below. Not to mention, unless Ness just completely messes up on his angle, you have to actually knock him a sizeable distance away from the stage if you want to edgehog him, which means Ivysaur needs to aerial him back out there. It's a lot easier said than done.

Well quite frankly, B-air comes out frame 4 IIRC, and I'm pretty sure it DOES outprioritize PKT2 since aerial priority is all about disjointed hitboxes.

Considering the range Ivysaur has on the B-air, and the fact that it takes considerable time for PKT2 to start up, it's really not hard to limit Ness's recovery options a lot. He can't aim for the ledge the slightest bit if it is going to be hogged.

That's not the same thing at all. In my situation, you either have to get it by fluke or get it by your opponent's stupidity. In your situation, you're saying that the Charizard has to watch out for PSI Magnet, when in reality, in all situations, Ness has to watch out for the opponent if he wants to try and absorb anything. PSI Magnet comes up a bit slow, which adds onto your own reaction timing. Charizard's Flamethrower comes out at max range in about half a second. That's not enough time for Ness to get it on reaction. He can only get it by prediction, and I have never had a Ness (or Lucas or G&W) absorb my Flamethrower because they typically don't down B in point-blank range in hopes of absorption. (Lucas will only do it to use it as an attack.)

The start-up of Flamethrower isn't unreadable, but it is by no means easy to read, which is what you're implying by thinking that PSI Magnet counters Flamethrower. That's asinine.

Now here is something important you need to realize. Ness benefits way more from absorbing Flamethrower than he gets hurt by getting hit by it. Flamethrower is extremely easy to SDI, and IN FACT can be punished by intelligent use of SDI. if you quarterstick it, you won't take much damage at all, or you can use this as an opportunity to get closer and punish.

Really, Flamethrower sucks so whatever.

 

[ColinJF]

No you're wrong. The only two attacks that actually make Ness a threat are F-air and B-throw. And to a lesser extend Dash attack IIRC.

Hahahaha.

If you remember correctly?

Sounds like teh_spammerer needs to brush up on his Ness knowledge before he gives any more exciting lectures to his star pupil.



By the way, when we say "aerial priority doesn't exist" we mean between aerials. Aerials and specials can interact in ways resembling ground priority interactions. And it's not all about disjointedness. Ness's pk thunder 2 is invincible in the first half of the distance.

 

[Brinzy]

Thank you, Colin. For all the times I haven't been on your side, thank you for posting that. Ness's PKT2, except for near the end of the move, will go right through Ivy's bair and hit Ivy if he's in the way.

If any character has a fairly clear answer around those two attacks, it sucks a lot for Ness.

Oh, you mean, "Do your best to not get hit by it or just hope that you can always outrange it" and "Don't get grabbed"? lol, that's still pretty dumb. How can you "get around" a throw? If you're doing your best to not get grabbed, you're probably airborne, where Ness wants to be. If you're on the ground, you're not in the safest position to not get b-thrown. What terrible logic.

Well quite frankly, B-air comes out frame 4 IIRC, and I'm pretty sure it DOES outprioritize PKT2 since aerial priority is all about disjointed hitboxes.

Considering the range Ivysaur has on the B-air, and the fact that it takes considerable time for PKT2 to start up, it's really not hard to limit Ness's recovery options a lot. He can't aim for the ledge the slightest bit if it is going to be hogged.

Already addressed and refuted.

Did I ever say it was oh-so-difficult to edgeguard Ness? For some reason, you seem to enjoy putting thoughts into my posts that never existed. I just said that it's not as easy as you and every other person who tries to talk like they know something but really don't think it is. Ness can recover from a very good distance away from the stage from pretty much any point on the map except for the lower areas. He doesn't need to use PK Thunder if his double jump gets him back, since you know, airdodging + aerials help him big time.

Also, unless that Ivysaur has impeccable timing, it's either edgehog, go out to Ness, or wait on the stage. Rarely will you be in a position where you can edgehog Ness, realize he's gonna make it, and punish in time, because you know, you want to tether the edge just in case. You're also not goind to be getting off a lot of bairs unless you put Ness down there yourself. If Ness puts himself down there, this would mean that Ness screwed up and decided to try and recover from point-blank range. Ivysaur has fairly poor aerial mobility. Ness has more than enough time to judge whether or not he can PK Thunder back to the stage. Don't say, "Well Ivysaur can just leave the stage a bit earlier and edgeguard" or something like that - if he somehow gets enough time to go out far enough to edgeguard Ness, then Ness will be ABOVE Ivy and will be safe because there's nothing Ivy can do without risking death. Ivysaur has to wait for Ness, not the other way around.

By the time Ivysaur is in a good enough distance to reliably edgeguard Ness... uh oh, look, Ness has already started PK Thunder for recovery! Chances are you won't smack Ness in time (assuming he started his recovery from a safe distance). You can't bair him out of PKT2 safely, because, as we've already told you, it'll do Ivy far more harm than it could ever do good.

This is why Ivysaur is supposed to wait on the stage. He chunks Razor Leaves at Ness, hopes one hits so Ness falls down, and THEN goes out to gimp him. The mere fact that you suggested what you did to "easily" take out Ness's recovery proves, yet again, that you really do not need to be talking in this match-up.

Now here is something important you need to realize. Ness benefits way more from absorbing Flamethrower than he gets hurt by getting hit by it. Flamethrower is extremely easy to SDI, and IN FACT can be punished by intelligent use of SDI. if you quarterstick it, you won't take much damage at all, or you can use this as an opportunity to get closer and punish.

Really, Flamethrower sucks so whatever.

Do I have to pound this in your head?

I think anyone who can tell when they're hungry and when they're tired could tell us that it's better to absorb something for health than it is to be scorched. Who cares about PSI Magnet? For the one time in a three-hour friendly fest you're having with someone and they're goofing off and you manage to absorb Flamethrower, you'll be burned another 40 times. You're not going to predict it unless you're playing someone who spams it, and that said, they both come out at roughly the same time, if Flamethrower is at max length. You're not going to be absorbing anything because a Charizard who likes his Flamethrower a lot will use that to stop Ness's ground approach COMPLETELY and to stop his SH approaches completely. This means that Ness is probably trying to attack Charizard, NOT setting up a stupid magnet. Charizard doesn't need to spam Flamethrower (because it diminishes), so unless you really know your opponent, you're not absorbing anything. Ever.

Flamethrower is easy to DI - that's why Charizard angles it for more damage. The main purpose of the move is to rack damage. It can also be used to edgeguard and to pretty much stop all other approaches that aren't named Egg Roll or something like that. Yes, you can DI towards Charizard and smack him with an aerial (and take around 25% on average, too) or you can DI away and complete Charizard's mission with Flamethrower... which was to keep you away. OR, you can try to DI towards Charizard and he can just stop it, watch you hit the ground, and slash your face off. Flamethrower doesn't suck. What sucks is that I'm arguing with someone who is trying to teach me something about my two characters when it's been happening the other way around.

 

[Steeler]

i'm glad that we have someone who knows how to play both characters. :D

 

[Brinzy]

steeler, feel like playing now or later?

It's up to you, though if we play now, hilarity may take place because I am currently sleep deprived + a little tipsy, but that shouldn't matter much, right?

 

[Steeler]

lol i'll play now. i'll be gone for the rest of the day at about 3:30

and OH SNAP you almost have 1000 posts! make it worthy!

 

[Brinzy]

That I will!

I'll get on now.

 

[Brinzy]

Mmm? I don't see you. : (