Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[The Hypnotist]

Buzz is exactly right, and that's what I was saying. How many casual players do you know that have been competitive and actually was good at Smash, and then said...

"Meh, I like playing with pokeballs on Hyrule more."

Find me some players like that.

 

[Red Exodus]

I have to say, pokeballs on hyrule is chaos. Especially when a polygon 2 pops up and smashes away 3 people with 400%+ damage. I couldn't do it everyday though, it'd drive me nuts.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

My favorite is playing on Hyrule Temple with mines set to very high. The entire stage becomes absolutely laden with hidden explosives. LOL Central!

 

[autobzooty]

Buzz is exactly right, and that's what I was saying. How many casual players do you know that have been competitive and actually was good at Smash, and then said...

"Meh, I like playing with pokeballs on Hyrule more."

Find me some players like that.

But why would I spend all that time and energy to work towards an end that I think won't be fun?

Everyone thinks that people like me are just ignorant and need to "see the light" or whatever. I've watched tons of videos of competitive smashers and I thought their skill was impressive. I just don't think it's for me.

Becoming a competitive smasher is a huge effort. Enormous, even. I just don't have enough promise that it will be fun to move away from how I play right now because I'm already having fun.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But why would I spend all that time and energy to work towards an end that I think won't be fun?

Everyone thinks that people like me are just ignorant and need to "see the light" or whatever. I've watched tons of videos of competitive smashers and I thought their skill was impressive. I just don't think it's for me.

Becoming a competitive smasher is a huge effort. Enormous, even. I just don't have enough promise that it will be fun to move away from how I play right now because I'm already having fun.

But that is not what you were discussing earlier. Your previous posts were attempts to call the competitive community ignorant. >_>

 

[Red Exodus]

The thing is, once you understand it and accept it, it doesn't matter if you follow the tournament rules or even practice the techniques because you realize what it is and stop bashing it.

Take me for example, I found this site when I was gamecube-less [I still am] but I accepted it even with experiencing it for myself. That way discussion was so much easier because I didn't have the mindset of ignoring competitive players.

Just play the way you want and let other people play the way they want and everything will be feel. That's something the whole forum needs to understand.

 

[autobzooty]

But that is not what you were discussing earlier. Your previous posts were attempts to call the competitive community ignorant. >_>

you misinterpreted me.

my stance in all of this is more along the lines of "I don't like how most competitive players think casual players need to play competitively." as if i'm just ignorant and i dont know what i'm missing out on.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

you misinterpreted me.

my stance in all of this is more along the lines of "I don't like how most competitive players think casual players need to play competitively." as if i'm just ignorant and i dont know what i'm missing out on.

And who told you to play competitively?

 

[autobzooty]

Everyone here, yourself included, has been trying to convince me to learn to wavedash, switch to doctor mario because he's better, convince me that wavedashing isn't a glitch, tell me i need to play in tournaments before i go off talking about things i "dont understand," etc. etc.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Everyone here, yourself included has been trying to convince me to learn to wavedash, switch to doctor mario because he's better, convince me that wavedashing isn't a glitch, tell me i need to play in tournaments before i go off talking about things i "dont understand," etc. etc.

If you want to win more, you have to learn these tactics. If winning does not interest you (or if you dislike our method of winning), you really should not be here whether you attend tournaments or not. If you ask a predominantly competitive community for any help winning, you are going to receive competition-based answers. What exactly are you looking for?

 

[slikvik]

you misinterpreted me.

my stance in all of this is more along the lines of "I don't like how most competitive players think casual players need to play competitively." as if i'm just ignorant and i dont know what i'm missing out on.

well...competitive players know whats its like to be casual since we were all casual at one point. Casual players often make very ignorant statements about the competitive scene. I'm guessing what some people were saying was that you should actually go to a decent tournament once before passing judgement and assuming things about a competitive scene you know nothing about. Honestly, none of us care if you play competitively or not.

 

[Red Exodus]

Everyone here, yourself included, has been trying to convince me to learn to wavedash, switch to doctor mario because he's better, convince me that wavedashing isn't a glitch, tell me i need to play in tournaments before i go off talking about things i "dont understand," etc. etc.

No one told you to switch to Doc. As far as I know they laughed at you for saying that fireballs were better but they didn't tell you to switch.

I don't know about that other stuff but I can assume you got the wrong idea from those posts.

 

[autobzooty]

i'm writing in this thread because i'm a minority on this message board. i'm not going to log out and shut up just because i'm different from you. i never once asked someone to tell me how to win more. we've just been talking about our opinions about different elements and aspects of the game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

i'm writing in this thread because i'm a minority on this message board. i'm not going to log out and shut up just because i'm different from you. i never once asked someone to tell me how to win more. we've just been talking about our opinions about different elements and aspects of the game.

Arguing about "wavedash being a glitch" is not you "voicing your opinion". It is you broadcasting your ignorance. A "glitch" has a concrete definition, but you would rather walk down the subjective road and call it "your definition of a glitch". Things like this are what make you people look bad. Many people refuse to educate themselves before entering a discussion. The ones that bother me the most are those who think they who never travel to compete yet believe they would stand a chance against people like me who take the game quite seriously. I've seen extreme cases where they watch videos of the best players (PC Chris, Mew2King, etc.) and say, "Oh, they're not that good. I could put up a good fight."

You lack humility. That is the bottom line. People who have YEARS of experience over you try to tell you how things are, but you choose to argue about it. Rather than demonstrate your credibility, you take the "logic road".

 

[Teh Uber Parachuter]

First off, great essay. Here are some points I just want to talk about. The arguement "well if you would just try our way, you would like it better" is just a suggestion. An dit is very different from the casuals saying to play with items BECAUSE WE USED TO PLAY CASUALLY. NOW WE PLAY COMPETITIVLY AND WE LIKE IT MORE. There aren't many people who start getting good, go to tournies and then saay... "meh, I like items more, it's just better". If all the casuals tried playing competitivly I bet the arguement would virtually go away. And when I say try I mean try for awhile, and actually get good. I'm tired of people thinking they've tried competitive play just because they can wavedash with Luigi. Yet they can't even name a professional Luigi.

As for the other thing I quoted from you I think you just don't have as much of a passion or desire to play Melee. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Very true...

However, think about it like this. If I started studying AT's, and watching hours of video to study professional players, and then suddenly just decided it wasn't for me, is that not choosing casual over competitive? You don't have to go to the extreme of one side to know whether you like it. My best friend, along with three people I play with on a daily basis are prime examples. They know every AT. They can implement most of them, and they have watched hours of videos on their mains. Still, they prefer playing in FFAs with limited items on almost any stage (I think they only dislike Brinstar Depths, Icicle Mountain, Big Blue, and Yoshi's Island 64)

Also, as for the last part, I think you misunderstood me. I love this game and love playing it. It just seems to me that it's too late to try and break onto the competitive scene with Brawl so close to release. I mean, all the effort I put into perfecting my skill in Melee could be used to perfect my skills in Brawl, could it not?

 

[autobzooty]

Arguing about "wavedash being a glitch" is not you "voicing your opinion". It is you broadcasting your ignorance. A "glitch" has a concrete definition, but you would rather walk down the subjective road and call it "your definition of a glitch". Things like this are what make you people look bad. Many people refuse to educate themselves before entering a discussion. The ones that bother me the most are those who think they who never travel to compete yet believe they would stand a chance against people like me who take the game quite seriously. I've seen extreme cases where they watch videos of the best players (PC Chris, Mew2King, etc.) and say, "Oh, they're not that good. I could put up a good fight."

You lack humility. That is the bottom line. People who have YEARS of experience over you try to tell you how things are, but you choose to argue about it. Rather than demonstrate your credibility, you take the "logic road".

A lesson of humility from a guy who cites his blog as a source. i don't care about your definition of a glitch, and yes, it is YOUR definition because YOU wrote it in YOUR blog.

i was talking about something important several pages ago but you wouldn't let go of the fact that i said wavedashing is a glitch and ignored the rest of what i said. i'm getting really sick of arguing with you because you only hear what you want to hear.

And who told you to play competitively?

You have, you jackal. Every interaction i've had with you has been me defending my opinions as you try and debunk the very premise on how and why i play a stupid video game.

i'm done talking to you. stay out of my way.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

A lesson of humility from a guy who cites his blog as a source. i don't care about your definition of a glitch.

For the last time, it is not my definition of a glitch! Do you think I just invented it and expected everyone to abide by it??? This is the humility problem I am referring to! You are assuming that I believe everyone should just listen to me, but my experience comes from listening to OTHER people wiser than me! You are letting your dislike of me block your brain from accepting the truth. So, if I say that the sky is blue, I suppose you will disagree with that too. Do I need to drag other people in here to tell you what a glitch is so that at least it doesn't come from me?? YOU ARE SO DENSE!

i was talking about something important several pages ago but you wouldn't let go of the fact that i said wavedashing is a glitch and ignored the rest of what i said. i'm getting really sick of arguing with you because you only hear what you want to hear.

Where did I discredit your entire argument over just the definition of a "glitch"? While we're at it, why should I listen to someone who thinks 2 + 2 = 5?

You have, you jackal. Every interaction i've had with you has been me defending my opinions as you try and debunk the very premise on how and why i play a stupid video game.

i'm done talking to you. stay out of my way.

You are speaking from ignorance. That is why I am trying to help you. Also, posting a rebuttal and then ending with "stay out of my way" doesn't work. Your rebuttal is merely an invitation for more discussion. Nice try in attempting to "have the last word".

 

[WastingPenguins]

A lesson of humility from a guy who cites his blog as a source. i don't care about your definition of a glitch, and yes, it is YOUR definition because YOU wrote it in YOUR blog.

Um...No. He wrote *the* definition in his blog. This statement is just silly. Believe it or not, when it comes to words in the English language, there are actual true meanings that do not require any interpretation.

 

[Red Exodus]

Is it me or do casuals overreact when they're wrong? It always goes down like this every time.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Is it me or do casuals overreact when they're wrong? It always goes down like this every time.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but you are Red Exodus, so your words cannot be true.

 

[autobzooty]

Um...No. He wrote *the* definition in his blog. This statement is just silly. Believe it or not, when it comes to words in the English language, there are actual true meanings that do not require any interpretation.

here's a better and more trustworthy way of citing a reliable source:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glitch


note how the website in question is a trusted website. also note that it isn't a blog. also note how it isn't three pages full of huge paragraphs that i'm expected to read from a guy who's done nothing but ***** at me from the beginning.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

here's a better and more trustworthy way of citing a reliable source:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glitch


note how the website in question is a trusted website. also note that it isn't a blog. also note how it isn't three pages full of huge paragraphs that i'm expected to read from a guy who's done nothing but ***** at me from the beginning.

LOL!

From the source you cited: "2. Computers. any error, malfunction, or problem". Care to point out the error, malfunction, or problem in this game? I simply went into more detail in my blog. I am a computer science major at college. I'm not sure how to make this any clearer for you.

 

[Pink Reaper]

A glitch: In the Super Smash Bros Brawl demo, despite Sakurai saying that you will take damage in super armour frames, Ike would not take damage in his UpB attack super armour frames. This is a glitch.

An exploit: In Super Smash Bros Melee the physics engine allows characters to slide when they have a certain amount of momentum against the ground. Player found that if you Air Dodge low enough to the ground you could use this slide to your advantage. This wasn't poor programing, its how the physics engine was SUPPOSED to work. Your SUPPOSED to slide when you have angular momentum against the ground.

 

[WastingPenguins]

A glitch: In the Super Smash Bros Brawl demo, despite Sakurai saying that you will take damage in super armour frames, Ike would not take damage in his UpB attack super armour frames. This is a glitch.

Not sure if that's the best example of a glitch. Sounds more like they just changed their minds about armor frames.

 

[Red Exodus]

I tried

Things would go easier if people admit it when they're wrong, I admit I hate doing it but sometimes it's just better to admit it. It's very hard to put up an argument only to be wrong and admit it but sometimes it's what needs to be done.


Auto, that definition doesn't prove anything.

WDing = Jumping [not a glitch] + airdodging in a direction [not a glitch] + making contact with the floor [not a glitch] = WDing or sliding [not a glitch]

Characters slide all the time, WDing just creates forced sliding. You could call WDing an exploit if you want, but it's hardly a glitch by definition.

 

[autobzooty]

LOL!

From the source you cited: "2. Computers. any error, malfunction, or problem". Care to point out the error, malfunction, or problem in this game? I simply went into more detail in my blog. I am a computer science major at college. I'm not sure how to make this any clearer for you.

You know, I'm kicking myself right now for even talking to you again, but I want to make myself absolutely clear to you.

I don't care about your opinions or your degrees. I don't care how unfathomably intelligent you may be. You may have even said something in those blogs of yours that would totally put me in my place and give me what I deserve. I just don't care. Do you want to know why?

Because, in my book, you are a jerk. Everything you've said to me has been vile and aggressive. I'm tired of arguing with you. Just when I think that the conversation is getting interesting and intelligent, along comes Captain Buzz the Instigator with his college education and his blogs to start another fire.

I'm not going to respond to you or anyone else that's talking about this anymore. Call me stubborn, but I've got to draw the line somewhere. There's no way a decent conversation can come from this.

Just leave me alone, okay?

 

[The Hypnotist]

But why would I spend all that time and energy to work towards an end that I think won't be fun?

Everyone thinks that people like me are just ignorant and need to "see the light" or whatever. I've watched tons of videos of competitive smashers and I thought their skill was impressive. I just don't think it's for me.

Becoming a competitive smasher is a huge effort. Enormous, even. I just don't have enough promise that it will be fun to move away from how I play right now because I'm already having fun.

You can play however you want but I recommend that you actually TRY to play with ATs and what not because odds are you will become ONE OF US!!!! DUN DUN DUN! But seriously, watching a few professional matches doesn't mean you tried it out. You say TONS of professional matches, but did you reall watch them. Did you understand the rules, do you know who was playing. Maybe you should watch some videos with commentary. After you know the tier list pretty well, actually are good, actually learn the game. Then you can say you tried it, but you haven't even tried it. You should actually try it before saying it won't be fun.

 

[Zankoku]

bzooty, you ignored my mention about teching.

That's edgeguarding. You misunderstood the video. The teching part was the Falco being able to recover from anything, be it Marth forward smash or an Onett car, regardless of how high his % was.

So, it's not just like stomping on fingers when someone's dangling from a ledge - it's more like doing a backflip off of the ledge and leaping back at it after someone's stomped on your fingers.

Please also tell me whether or not these are glitches.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ay55txMWNjQ

Thanks~

 

[autobzooty]

You can play however you want but I recommend that you actually TRY to play with ATs and what not because odds are you will become ONE OF US!!!! DUN DUN DUN! But seriously, watching a few professional matches doesn't mean you tried it out. You say TONS of professional matches, but did you reall watch them. Did you understand the rules, do you know who was playing. Maybe you should watch some videos with commentary. After you know the tier list pretty well, actually are good, actually learn the game. Then you can say you tried it, but you haven't even tried it. You should actually try it before saying it won't be fun.

The advanced techniques come really easily for you, but telling someone like me to "just try them out" is much easier said than done.

I spent a long time trying to learn to wavedash and it didn't get me very far. it was a LOT of work!

i was probably exaggerating a bit when i said I've watched TONS of videos, but i've watched a fair few. it's kind of hard to tell what's going on though because a lot of people just film their TVs instead of getting direct feed footage. compile that with youtubes compressed videos and low frame rates, and suddenly a basic shuffle attack becomes a disorienting array of lights and sound.


i might give wavedashing a second chance. what's stopping me from learning it now more than the fact that i dont like it is the fact that it wont be in brawl. i dont wanna spend all that time on a lost cause, you know? i'd personally rather learn to shuffle.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You know, I'm kicking myself right now for even talking to you again, but I want to make myself absolutely clear to you.

I don't care about your opinions or your degrees. I don't care how unfathomably intelligent you may be. You may have even said something in those blogs of yours that would totally put me in my place and give me what I deserve. I just don't care. Do you want to know why?

Because, in my book, you are a jerk. Everything you've said to me has been vile and aggressive. I'm tired of arguing with you. Just when I think that the conversation is getting interesting and intelligent, along comes Captain Buzz the Instigator with his college education and his blogs to start another fire.

I'm not going to respond to you or anyone else that's talking about this anymore. Call me stubborn, but I've got to draw the line somewhere. There's no way a decent conversation can come from this.

Just leave me alone, okay?

Feel free to ignore me and not respond to me, but I guarantee that others will see my response and give you grief for it.

So, because you don't like me, my logic is incorrect? You are reacting to this discussion in a purely emotional way. You walked into this discussion having already decided that you were right, and no one can change your mind about anything. That is your problem. I apologize for being so blunt, but nothing I have said is to spite you. I try to educate you, but you don't like being wrong.

 

[autobzooty]

bzooty, you ignored my mention about teching.


Please also tell me whether or not these are glitches.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ay55txMWNjQ

Thanks~

Oh sorry, I think I missed your earlier post.

Teching I have no problem with. It takes skill and timing.

As for the moves in the other video you linked, they don't really sit well with me. I hate to bring up the "spirit of the game" again, buuuut....

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Edge-hogging is cheating.

 

[The Hypnotist]

The advanced techniques come really easily for you, but telling someone like me to "just try them out" is much easier said than done.

I spent a long time trying to learn to wavedash and it didn't get me very far. it was a LOT of work!

i was probably exaggerating a bit when i said I've watched TONS of videos, but i've watched a fair few. it's kind of hard to tell what's going on though because a lot of people just film their TVs instead of getting direct feed footage. compile that with youtubes compressed videos and low frame rates, and suddenly a basic shuffle attack becomes a disorienting array of lights and sound.


i might give wavedashing a second chance. what's stopping me from learning it now more than the fact that i dont like it is the fact that it wont be in brawl. i dont wanna spend all that time on a lost cause, you know? i'd personally rather learn to shuffle.

I'm curious how long a "long time" is. If you spend 30 mins just going to training mode as Luigi you should have it down. Look up MLG Smash for some good videos with commentary. And watch the Advanced How To Play videos.

You should learn how to tech, teching is in Brawl, and is VERY important.

 

[autobzooty]

I'm curious how long a "long time" is. If you spend 30 mins just going to training mode as Luigi you should have it down. Look up MLG Smash for some good videos with commentary. And watch the Advanced How To Play videos.

You should learn how to tech, teching is in Brawl, and is VERY important.

Learning how to simply wavedash wasn't hard, I can do that without much problem (though I might be rusty after so long). I just have a hard time using it to actually accomplish anything. I can slide around the stage okay, but I feel like the distance I slide is too short to really consider doing anything but a d-smash (with mario).


I should learn to tech though. I'll probably start practicing that today. The advanced how-to-play videos you mentioned are just on youtube, right?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Oh sorry, I think I missed your earlier post.

Teching I have no problem with. It takes skill and timing.

As for the moves in the other video you linked, they don't really sit well with me. I hate to bring up the "spirit of the game" again, buuuut....

People need to learn there is no "Spirit of the game". Its a GAME. Its meant to be played how people WANT TO PLAY IT. (I cant believe Im about to say this AGAIN) If you want to play without advanced techs, with all items/stages on, 12 stock, no time limit, four player free for all's THEN DO IT. We have chosen to play without items on certain levels exploiting every last bit of programing in the game. You don't hear everyone else saying "The spirit of the game is competitiveness and anything that is random is EVIL and should never be played ever, EVER"

P.S: Hey Buzz I hosted a (tiny) item tourney last night XD

 

[The Hypnotist]

Oh sorry, I think I missed your earlier post.

Teching I have no problem with. It takes skill and timing.

As for the moves in the other video you linked, they don't really sit well with me. I hate to bring up the "spirit of the game" again, buuuut....

I don't understand, wavedashing takes skill and timing as well. And teching doesn't make sense just like wavedashing doesn't. What's your gripe with wavedashing?

 

[autobzooty]

People need to learn there is no "Spirit of the game". Its a GAME. Its meant to be played how people WANT TO PLAY IT. (I cant believe Im about to say this AGAIN) If you want to play without advanced techs, with all items/stages on, 12 stock, no time limit, four player free for all's THEN DO IT. We have chosen to play without items on certain levels exploiting every last bit of programing in the game. You don't hear everyone else saying "The spirit of the game is competitiveness and anything that is random is EVIL and should never be played ever, EVER"

P.S: Hey Buzz I hosted a (tiny) item tourney last night XD

What you just said IS the spirit of the game. The spirit of the game is m personal opinion of how it should be played. So if I don't want to play with wavedashing, I won't. That's the spirit of the game for me personally. Others might think that the spirit of the game is competition and doing whatever it takes to win. It's different for every person.

I don't understand, wavedashing takes skill and timing as well. And teching doesn't make sense just like wavedashing doesn't. What's your gripe with wavedashing?

I'm having a really hard time putting into words how I feel about wavedashing. Let me try again...

I'll use Super Mario as an example. Mario jumps several times his own height, grows bigger when he eats mushrooms, throws fire from his hands with the aid of tulips he finds inside floating boxes. None of that makes any sense at all, but these are the things we love Mario for.

So when I see Mario gliding around a stage without using his feet, I say, "That's impossible," even though everything else Mario does isn't possible either. It doesn't make sense in the context of the Mario universe.

It would be a different story if, say, Mewtwo was the only character that could do it. Mewtwo glides around, he's psychic, et cetera. It makes sense in the context of the Pokemon universe.

Did that help explain things?

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'm having a really hard time putting into words how I feel about wavedashing. Let me try again...

I'll use Super Mario as an example. Mario jumps several times his own height, grows bigger when he eats mushrooms, throws fire from his hands with the aid of tulips he finds inside floating boxes. None of that makes any sense at all, but these are the things we love Mario for.

So when I see Mario gliding around a stage without using his feet, I say, "That's impossible," even though everything else Mario does isn't possible either. It doesn't make sense in the context of the Mario universe.

It would be a different story if, say, Mewtwo was the only character that could do it. Mewtwo glides around, he's psychic, et cetera. It makes sense in the context of the Pokemon universe.

Did that help explain things?

So what your saying is that you mentally block something you perceive to be an impossibility in the context of a non-existent universe?

 

[autobzooty]

So what your saying is that you mentally block something you perceive to be an impossibility in the context of a non-existent universe?

yes that's right.

 

[Pink Reaper]

yes that's right.

K, Im leaving now.