Plussery Brawl+ Tier List Discussion Thread *Not what you think, plz read

[CT Chia]

*This is probably not what you think it will be for, read on for details

In the plussery and such we are currently discussing changes to be made to the game. One of those main changes are how to buff and nerf certain characters. If we just keep arbitrarily keep changing random characters depending on how they feel to some people, then we will find ourselves in a mess that won't be balanced in the end.

Bottom line, by evening out we need to:
Nerf: Only AMAZING characters (like we did to Meta Knight) and tactics we deem broken (like jab/laser lock and potentially ICs chaingrabs)
Buff: All not high tier characters, up to a high tier-ish level. Primarily pay close attention to the lowest tier characters, so we have no garbage characters in the game that can't win against some characters. There should be no un-winnable characters.

SO...

How do we decide on which characters need buffing to an extent? And which characters (if any) to continue to nerf? We need a tier list for US. I need to stress that THIS TIER LIST IS NOT FOR THE PUBLIC. It also won't be revealed to the public unless we want to (though I don't want to release it) It's a quick project we can do to get a rough idea of how characters are compared to each other in a single thread with a single system. We don't have to be exact, we just need this to help us balance the game on a scale that makes sense.

I wouldn't mind leading the making of this tier list, it's just a small project anyway. I would like to go about it like the SBR did for the regular Brawl tier list.

There will be two threads. One for VOTING, and one for DISCUSSING. This is the discussion thread. Simply post some of your thoughts, and chat with your fellow plussery smashers here. Some people may be undecided on a character and could post something like "I don't have much experience on Peach. Can someone who is familiar with the character in B+ please post about her? What kind of cool techniques she has, any terrible matchups, great matchups, etc."


VOTING IS OPEN HERE: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225373


The voting thread (here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225373) will work like this. Each member of the plussery will make one post for their tier vote. No other posts should be in the thread. You will number down 9 through 1, 9 being the highest, and 1 being the lowest. You will then throw characters into whatever group you want to based on how good you think they are. Some groups may be left blank if you think there is a gap. For instance, here is my vote from the SBR tier list (which used 15 groups) I don't mind sharing:

15 – Meta Knight
14 – Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco
13 - Diddy Kong, ROB, King Dedede, Olimar
12 – Pit, Marth
11 – Donkey Kong, Lucario, Kirby, Zero Suit Samus
10 – Pikachu, Peach, Wario, Fox, Toon Link
9 –
8 - Bowser, Wolf, Ice Climbers
7 – Zelda, Luigi, Sheik
6 – Ike, Samus
5 - Mario, Lucas, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer
4 – Ganondorf, Yoshi
3 – Ness, Link
2 -
1 – Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff

We have voting open up for a bit, maybe not too long since this isn't meant to be too serious and so we can get to balancing quickly for a version 3.4 of the code list, etc.

After we vote for around a week or two, I will then compile all the results, and come up with a numerical value for all characters and rank them in order, and split the tiers based on where there are point gaps.

and with that...
LETS GET SOME DISCUSSION GOING!

 

[shanus]

9 – Meta Knight, ROB, G&W, Marth, Fox
8 – Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, ZSS
7– Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Falcon, Sonic, Olimar, Squirtle
6– Lucario, Wolf, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Sheik
5 - King Dedede, Ganondorf, Ike, Pit
4 – Kirby, Peach, Wario, Toon Link, Ice Climbers, Ivysaur
3 – Zelda, Samus, Yoshi, Link, Jigglypuff, Charizard
2 - Lucas
1 – Bowser

 

[CT Chia]

make sure u copy ur vote into the voting thread when i make it either later today or tomorrow, though this could spark some discussion.
though u used only 9 groups, not 15. should i decrease the number of groups since we dont know THAT much about the game yet? i think 1-10 might work well.

im surprised u dont think lucas is that well shanus, any reason? i found him to be ok, nothing spectacular though. he has a nice utilt, still a strong upB (with hitting it into himself)
other than that, its not a bad list u have there, though i would def change some things. toon link is really good imo, probably top 3 groups i think, not too sure yet

 

[goodoldganon]

make sure u copy ur vote into the voting thread when i make it either later today or tomorrow, though this could spark some discussion.
though u used only 9 groups, not 15. should i decrease the number of groups since we dont know THAT much about the game yet? i think 1-10 might work well.

im surprised u dont think lucas is that well shanus, any reason? i found him to be ok, nothing spectacular though. he has a nice utilt, still a strong upB (with hitting it into himself)
other than that, its not a bad list u have there, though i would def change some things. toon link is really good imo, probably top 3 groups i think, not too sure yet

I think tiers are much closer now then they ever were in vB so I'll probably stick with a 9 group as well.

9- Meta Knight, ROB, G+W, Diddy, Marth
8- DK, Snake, Falco, Fox, Lucario
7- THE Captain Falcon, ZSS, Wolf, Luigi, Mario, Sonic
6- Squirtle, Wario, Sheik, Toon Link, ICs, Pika
5- Pit, Kirby, Ganondorf, Ike, D3, Charizard, Link
4- Peach, Zelda, Olimar, Ness
3- Samus, Yoshi, Ivy, Lucas, Jigglypuff
2-
1- Bowser

I had a lot of trouble grouping some of these guys because I think that Brawl+ still has some REALLY bad matchups for some of the cast and also, as I said, the tier list is so close.

Basically I believe everyone in group 9 is a little too good. Assuming the Tornado nerf, they aren't unbeatable, but they are that little leg up on everyone else. (I'm also assuming the weight nerf on Snake.)

Groups 8-4 are fine and besides maybe a tweak here or there they can ship as is. I'm sure I could argue for buffs in one way or another, but they truly don't need it.

Group 3 is, like group 9, just a little behind the rest of the cast. I'm assuming the Lucas buffs of course but everyone else there I can say that they are just a little behind the rest of the cast. Sure we could buff them, but every game needs their low tiers. They can still fight and do well, just not at the best level.

Bowser is awful. Thick Skin helps, no one should argue that, but it's not everything he needs. I'm interested to see these tilt fixes Shanus keeps talking about.

Hopefully this is what you were looking for, I might come back and break the list up some more (fill out group 2 and unclutter 7, 6, and 5) but on a whole that's where I'd group everyone.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm saving this post for later and will edit in my tier list when I have a moment, although it will be rather vague (as most will be). I will mainly only emphasize on characters that I feel to be truly lacking though, as I feel that is what we should be focusing on. Currently, no character seems overly powerful, even Snake or Meta Knight. They all feel good, and within the same realm of each other.

 

[CT Chia]

remember, u dont have to post ur vote here, its more for discussion. im going to make the voting thread now

 

[Almas]

I think that at the moment some of us have very little exposure to some characters, and that would cause many of us to have a biased view on which characters are better than others. We should refrain from mentioning the quality of characters we aren't experienced at playing with or against.

Since we are ranking characters on a point system, there is no reason why people shouldn't just neglect to give values for characters they don't have experience with, and this would remove error.

 

[CT Chia]

then just hold off on voting till u have more experience, since im keeping it open for like 2 weeks or something. or u can edit ur post, or discuss before u do.
i personally made sure i played every single character when i played with vex a lot this past weekend (we did a gauntlet, and while dittos arent the best way to determine skill, it was a great way to get experience with each character and learn some things they can do). we also did a bunch of random matches to get some random matchups.

 

[goodoldganon]

I think the tier list idea is a fine idea. Probably not necessary but certainly not useless. As my post says, the cast is well balanced he just wants to compile what everyone thinks of some of the characters. Who knows, it might spark a good debate. For example, I'm curious as to why Shanus placed Lucario so low. I'd place him in 8 at the lowest and he could easily break into 9. Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out some of the placements. We all know Link and DK are good characters, but I think everyone agrees DK is the better of the two.

As Chibo said, it won't be public. I'd encourage everyone to sit down and just think for a few minutes where'd they would place guys. Groups 7 through 3 are where I'd put the characters we think are good to go. 9 might need some nerfs and 8 are the people we think are balaned high tiers. 2 are the balanced low tiers and 1 are the guys that need buffed. That's how I treated it.

 

[Almas]

Erm... I'm probably not going to vote at all, that wasn't my point.

My point is that playing the character for a few games (or even a few hours) still won't give you an accurate representation of their metagame. Some characters require a lot of skill just to get off the ground, but when you do they are easily as good as another character played with equivalent skill. Without significant experience pertaining to the character, you're clearly going to give a flawed view.

Looking at some of the lists already posted, some people have DRASTIC disagreements. For example, GoGs list has Ivysaur at 3, while on yours he is at 7. I have to question which (if either of you) has actually extensively played the character (or play with someone who has/does).

The voting system that the SBRs use are effective because the smash games have a large tournament presence. You're almost guaranteed to have played against every high or top tier character if you're in the SBR, so you can accurately give this information.

B+ is a new game, and it's likely that in your group of players, between you you probably have significant experience with about a quarter of the cast at most. I believe you should only really be commenting on these characters, otherwise of course you're going to give innacurate representations.

The concept of blind voting is also quite important.

 

[kupo15]

I wholeheartedly agree with Almas and thus, will not be voting either. You can't just pick up a character you have no experience and expect to know where they fall after a couple hours of playing. That would be like me playing Akuma, playing horribly and losing here and there and saying he's a mediocre character

 

[leafgreen386]

Gonna echo what almas and kupo are saying here, as well. I have direct experience with not even half of the cast, and harbor only a general idea of character classes atm. If I were to give character ratings, I would probably only use 3-5 groups, as character potential atm is just such a big blur.

 

[CT Chia]

set a deadline for voting to march 27th. if you feel you are inexperienced with a certain character and are unsure where to put them, then post about it here, talk with others, watch some vids.

anyone feel free to post some influencial quality vids here in this thread to spark some discussion

vote here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225373