First of all I bet everyone wants to know why the hell we need categories. well Thinkaman was right when he said we should look more at the tactics presented to us by that specific opponent rather than looking at stage and character choice and spitting out a memorized 'effective' tactics list. (paraphrased)
I'm all for that, but how would anyone use a forum that we can't access mid game to provide player specific tendencies, methods to best them and the like?
It's not possible to do effectively of course, so I'd like to introduce a classification system.
With an effective category system, we will be able to significantly narrow down research, and provide a basis to build games on, instead of giving the player a preset game they should use.
Furthermore, with this kind of category system, we can finally consider, or better yet report human tendencies to provide tactical bases.
Keeping all of this in mind, I'd like to implement the categorization system to help Veril(and others as time goes on) to get a more finite, ergo precise underlying goal.
So with much thought, I think that we can separate the mind set of a player from their play style specific to a character. This is more than neat tricks or 'combos' these categories represent the player's tendincies.
There are four such mindset tendencies.
Initiates action
Initiates reaction
Avoids opposing action
Avoids opposing reaction
Initiates Action (IA)
IA players can be seen as the most aggressive players. IA players work on the fact that action is always faster the reaction. These players usually start the fight. They will have a tendency to attack rather than shield or dodge. IA can be difficult to play against if they control the momentum of the game, if you allow a player like this to continue to launch attacks, you can very easily get swept up in the assault and take a lot of damage.
Usually this type of player wants to see your damage meter as high as possible, and any attack that hits is worth it. Poor IA players will be consistently aggressive and space aggressively. more intelligent IA players will use precision strings of attacks when given an opening.
Initiates Reaction (IR)
IR players will look for tendencies of the opponents before launching attacks of their own. This mindset works usually with a very persistent playstyle and a more patient attitude. IR players will usually shield and dodge rather than launch a random attack. These players can still be aggressive, but their will be points of hesitation to play attacks. Usually this kind of player doesn't need especially high damage to kill, but looks more for openings or weak points in offense or defense. Good IR players will remain flexible throughout the fight, employing similar counter tactics, but not repeating this tactic or making it to obvious. A poor IR player will find something that works and stubborn ly stick top it, assuming they have you beat if they keep this up.
A good, simple way to understand the differences between IA and IR is to imagine you are below a ToonLink whose using Down A. An IA ToonLink will try to hit you with down A. An IR player will Use down A behind you, where they expect you to roll. Please understand these is a very basic example that would not bear weight in an actual game. In other words this is a way to mentally consider the direct personality differences between the two players.
Avoids Opposing Action (AA)
AA players use the premise that they longer they live, the more damage they can deal. Surviving is a big deal for AA players. While not neccissarily good at dealing out the heavy damage, AA players focus on not getting hit. or as more famously said, not jumping into the ****. This avoidance creates a tendency of being over cautious, which means they are quite suseptable to an attack outside of their comfort zones, but they will excell at defending against a wide variety of tactics. This sort of player puts up an interesting fight. In general games against AA players can be very long. sometimes reaching up to 12-15 minutes. This is part of the time constraint problem that I'd imagine could help or hurt the AA player depending on the situation.
Avoids Opposing Reaction (AR)
AR players are the most cautious of all. They will probably relly of projectile attacks, or generally "safe" moves. They don't focus as much on not taking damage, but they focus on preventing or avoiding response. This can take form in a string of relentless attacks, or in a much more passive play style. A good AR player will probably combine both of these traits, dealling lots of damage when the see an opening. PLEASE do not confuse the AR player with the IR player. AR is very much based on their own play style. IR plays to beat the opponents playstyle.
Please also remember that noe of these categories completely label a player, but more define general parameters of their playstyle.
That's it for now.
Awkward zone info.
Similar Awkwards zones are all ove rthe place for different characters. Heavy aerial characters won't care as much. becasue a jump kinda moves them enough so hat they will feel safe. Of course youy can force the jump, which in a sense still accomplishes your goal, no?
I'm wirking on finding more Awkward Zones as aI build a categorization system. I hope it's quite apparent that without the categorization system, it becomes harder to predict these things. A more IR Ike will roll backwards. A more IA ike may attempt an attack, ect.
Player gathered Info!
I'd like to thank thinkaman for this great info.
This is a call to All Jiggs, send me info on your matches. remember, the skill of the player isn't super important, but it's their play style that's important.
IA Pit: try as hard as you can do dodge his flurry of attacks. If you can apply some pressure of your own to slow him down. A rampaging IA is never something you want. generally it's a good plan to face pit in the air. An aggressive player such as this will likely launch attacks instead of just trying to evade you in air. If your careless with your aerial control, you can wind up stuck in the IA Pit attack chain. Most important;y keep your preferred distance! I'd recommend not getting too far away since he does have very flexible projectiles.
Awkward zones for IA Pit. IA Pit players really don't have wide awkward zones. They will keep the pressure up as hard as they can, so even at long range they can and will likely pump out a stream of arrows. We can however break down the Awkward zones for range attacks, A ground attacks, and B attacks.
Melee range(ground A attacks)
Of course the first thing to do when you want to manipulate a character is to get away from their comfort zone. In this case Pit's ground base extends as far as f-tilt. Stay right out side this range to initiate a ground based response. Most likely we're talking about a dash grab or a dash attack. either way, expect a move towards you. I'd recommend pound, OOS nair(if you think he'll dash attack), or rising fair -> retreat. If you want you could even bait a shield to initiate grab, the follow up of your choice. Keep in mind you have to be fast, cause the distance in going to close really fast.
Range Attacks (standard B only)
Pit has a very useful range attack. he can curve it in a fan like shape extending away from him. During his hold he can swap sides, so he's never going to fire an arrow in the wrong direction. They come out fairly fast, so keep on you toes. This range attack can't hit outside of a set height right outside of pit's Usmash range. Hovering around here will Invariably initiate a U air. from Pit, so be careful. If you hover to bait the Uair and then fast fall as you retreat back. you can dodge the Uair and have pit still using the move. From here follow up with your choice attack.
Special moves. (B moves(if B moves were used in the range attack section, they will not be covered here.)
Pit has Three special moves. UpB, Side B, and Down B. The IA pit is never going to use Down B so just ignore that. If by some miracle he does. Grab him. Up B offstage is always an invitation to attack Pit. But IA Pit may prefer a glide, since he will then be able to use his glide attack. The odds of Up B coming out offensively in this fight are incredibly low. Side B is the only special move you can expect. This is annoying if it hits, but slows Pit down a lot and allows you top get behind him for an attack of your choice. Pit's special base doesn't give much of a threat.
Overall Manipulation tactics.
IA Pit is like a bull. He's relentless, but you can set him up to suit your needs in a few ways. Standing right ouside of range will initiate a grab or a dash attack. floating diagonally above The Pit(outside of Usmash range) will tempt a U air. The ground Zone is your best bet to manipulate in this case.
Credits.
(This analysis was provided primarily by Thinkaman for his battle information with KY, secondary sources include watching the Pit boards for moves that they like, and nondescript posts made by jiggly boarders.)
Lucario:
Interestingly enough, the nice guys down at the lucario boards already have their own classification system. It's not as thorough as Yours Truly's, but It focuses more on the different ways to play Lucario. Conveniently, this is exactly what I wanted so now we're using their guide to beat them instead of playing as them.
HOW TOPLAY BEATLUCARIO
Here are their different 'classes' of lucario.
Agressive- Tends to frighten or overwhelm the other player with spaztic playing. More prone to risk taking. Utilizes the fact Lucario is weak at low %'s and makes up for doubling HpS (hits per second). Most players don't see this kind of lucario, and don't know how to combat it. Sounds like IA Lucario
Neutral- The most commonly seen lucario, partly because most new to lucario will tend to like this place. This is you back-and fourth play type. Wont take control of the match, but wont be a push-over either. Also the fall to or back point from Defensive or Agressive.
Sounds like IR Lucario.
Defensive- Arguably thee best way to play lucario. These players will slow the game down to their own speed, and by allowing the other person to attack all the time, and miss, and break their morale. Think Invisible gamer wall. Also a great time to find out the other players response moves and best way to counter act them. Once the other player has been read, then going aggressive to apply pressure to the weak points, and win the game.
Sounds Like AR Lucario.
So far All I have enough info on is the IR Lucario. SO AWAY WE GO!
IR Lucario:
IR Lucario Wants to grab you more tahn anything else. These lucario players don't like getting to much into A attacks, And prefer to fight at moderate range. Because of this, just being jigglypuffs gives us a big advantage when fighting this type of lucario. Avoid lucario's grab just like you would the IC, and hit him hard with air attacks. Using rest earlier on in the fight isn't a terrible idea, since a low % lucario isn't that strong, so if you miss it's ok. Then again, lucario is one of the heavier characters so plan for long life span. More importantly remember that Lucario has a lot of control options, IR players will use and abuse these. Although the IR lucario is semi comfortable in the air, he can't match the ferocity of a jigglypuff, so hit him hard when he's in the air, just watch out for Dair, and Bair can be dangerous if it's planned out well. you should be able to see a Bair coming though.
More is on the way
Please excuse the layour of this post, it's not done yet.
Awkward zones for IA Pit. IA Pit players really don't have wide awkward zones. They will keep the pressure up as hard as they can, so even at long range they can and will likely pump out a stream of arrows. We can however break down the Awkward zones for range attacks, A ground attacks, and B attacks.
Melee range(ground A attacks)
Of course the first thing to do when you want to manipulate a character is to get away from their comfort zone. In this case Pit's ground base extends as far as f-tilt. Stay right out side this range to initiate a ground based response. Most likely we're talking about a dash grab or a dash attack. either way, expect a move towards you. I'd recommend pound, OOS nair(if you think he'll dash attack), or rising fair -> retreat. If you want you could even bait a shield to initiate grab, the follow up of your choice. Keep in mind you have to be fast, cause the distance in going to close really fast.
Range Attacks (standard B only)
Pit has a very useful range attack. he can curve it in a fan like shape extending away from him. During his hold he can swap sides, so he's never going to fire an arrow in the wrong direction. They come out fairly fast, so keep on you toes. This range attack can't hit outside of a set height right outside of pit's Usmash range. Hovering around here will Invariably initiate a U air. from Pit, so be careful. If you hover to bait the Uair and then fast fall as you retreat back. you can dodge the Uair and have pit still using the move. From here follow up with your choice attack.
Special moves. (B moves(if B moves were used in the range attack section, they will not be covered here.)
Pit has Three special moves. UpB, Side B, and Down B. The IA pit is never going to use Down B so just ignore that. If by some miracle he does. Grab him. Up B offstage is always an invitation to attack Pit. But IA Pit may prefer a glide, since he will then be able to use his glide attack. The odds of Up B coming out offensively in this fight are incredibly low. Side B is the only special move you can expect. This is annoying if it hits, but slows Pit down a lot and allows you top get behind him for an attack of your choice. Pit's special base doesn't give much of a threat.
Overall Manipulation tactics.
IA Pit is like a bull. He's relentless, but you can set him up to suit your needs in a few ways. Standing right ouside of range will initiate a grab or a dash attack. floating diagonally above The Pit(outside of Usmash range) will tempt a U air. The ground Zone is your best bet to manipulate in this case.
Credits.
(This analysis was provided primarily by Thinkaman for his battle information with KY, secondary sources include watching the Pit boards for moves that they like, and nondescript posts made by jiggly boarders.)
Hard DATA(this is the stuff fellow jigglypuffs have written about specific fights, or the info they Pm'd me.) useful if you want the primary source) For now all we have is what thinkaman has posted. please contribute to this research.
Thinkaman's contribution.
Ky's Pit: You are evasive enough to dodge all of Pit's KO moves--you have no excuse to get hit by a bair or f-smash in particular. Chase him down and bair pressure. Pit can't do much in the air as long as you watch out for the bair and glide attack. KY's Pit isn't going to give you the chance to gimp him, but most people aren't KY so get out there with nairs and dairs. I think it is worth it to save fair in this matchup, dash attack no so sure.
Stealth Raptor's Lucario: He went Lucario agaisnt me, which turned out to be a legit decision. My understanding of the matchup increased significantly after just two more matches--save fair, save dash, try for rest. I missed a rest in one of the matches, lol, might have changed the outcome as close as they were. It's really hard to grab Lucario, so focus on bairs for damage. Beware his fair. Finally, go ALL OUT off stage. I didn't do this enough, as Stealth pointed out afterwards. I feel like this matchup could develop significantly, for both parties.
GMo's Falco: The key to fighting Falco hinges on the idea that you want to attack him in the air, but that is hard. Throws are godly, because they put him in the air and do 10%+. Falco players are normally conditioned to grab as much as possible, especially at low percents, so take advantage of this. You should always be nair-ing Fox/Falco side-Bs, this got me tons of damage in these matches and basically turned one-stocks into two-stocks.
Karmacide's Snake: I was really, really nervous about playing a really good Snake first match in Brackets. He barely took 50% first stock, but I immediately killed him with a single fair off the side on respawn. (Soooo ridiculous!) I tried to keep up bair pressure, but Karma would go "out and up" like Snakes should. Once above me, he would b-reversal a grenade to shift his position and evade my aerial punish. This worked much better than throwing out a dangerous but punishable Snake aerial--I tried to start predicting it and punish him, but I never got anything concrete down. I think most my KOs were with Fairs, even though I didn't save it. I also remember getting a lot of grabs. Man, fighting Snake is so fun. All other high-tier mains should switch to Snake.
UTC Zac's G&W: AHHHHHHHHHHHH! Texas people are amazing enough WITHOUT playing G&W! Lesson #1: Always ban Green Greens against G&W, it's like a G&W circus. I tried to practice resting the key before I played him, but I never got it even once. (I can reliably avoid the hit with the invincibility frame, but I could never figure out how to hit G&W...) I don't know what it is about G&W's u-smash, but it's like a magnet. I might to test out the hitbox of it more carefully, since most my losses to G&W are to that move.
BadNewsBear: Playing BnB was a testament to the fact that rollout is a game changer if they have never had to deal with it before, I definitely got a majority of my KOs with it. He played a defensive Marth, and punished me harshly with retreating fairs. Marth seems like the perfect character, until you remember how unrewarding his throws are. Play defensive and try to get grabs against Marth, especially b-throws on the edge, they are as valuable agianst Marth as spanimals. After I beat Marth, he switched to Meta Knight and I had a much easier time. I did get impatient though, and he kept me from 2 stocking him.
Bwett's Yoshi: Words are not enough... but I will try. Space the heck out of Yoshi, watch out for eggs, don't walk into Smashes. Bwett was far too good to let me footstool him out of double jump no matter how hard I tried in every match--his air dodges were perfect. Still always try this against Yoshis, since they aren't perfect it's a free stock. If you are put in an egg, always DI out away from the stage and pop out at your leisure. (That should be obvious) Finally, don't take Yoshi to Norfair, ever... work counter-pick I've made in quite awhile. Me and Bwett talked about this afterwards. BRINSTAR is the way to go.
Zeton's Fox: Zeton's Fox is a scary, scary thing. You need to understand one thing about Fox: The 5-o'clock zone when he is in the air? Where his dair hits? That is a vortex of death? If you are ever there, you will suffer. Do you understand that? Everyone knows to avoid the uair, and watch out for double-jumped surprise fair too, but dair is what will destroy you. Remember how fast Fox accelerates: if you aren't in the death vertex, he will move so that you are. Fox controls the vertical distance beteen the two characters, and you control the horizontal distance, never lose sight of that. Zeton can cancel his side-B with 100% accuracy, so you should never try to rest it... just anticipate and aerial. Like most characters, you can bait an attack to the edge and punish with uair. The key to Fox and Falco is to figure out how they prefer to recover, so you can punish it.
Thinkaman's Falcon: Nothing can be done. You might as well give him a dollar and be done with it
(not edited for content.) Primary DATA evidence in word for word what is given to me/posted on the boards, nothing is changed.
I'm all for that, but how would anyone use a forum that we can't access mid game to provide player specific tendencies, methods to best them and the like?
It's not possible to do effectively of course, so I'd like to introduce a classification system.
With an effective category system, we will be able to significantly narrow down research, and provide a basis to build games on, instead of giving the player a preset game they should use.
Furthermore, with this kind of category system, we can finally consider, or better yet report human tendencies to provide tactical bases.
Keeping all of this in mind, I'd like to implement the categorization system to help Veril(and others as time goes on) to get a more finite, ergo precise underlying goal.
So with much thought, I think that we can separate the mind set of a player from their play style specific to a character. This is more than neat tricks or 'combos' these categories represent the player's tendincies.
There are four such mindset tendencies.
Initiates action
Initiates reaction
Avoids opposing action
Avoids opposing reaction
Initiates Action (IA)
IA players can be seen as the most aggressive players. IA players work on the fact that action is always faster the reaction. These players usually start the fight. They will have a tendency to attack rather than shield or dodge. IA can be difficult to play against if they control the momentum of the game, if you allow a player like this to continue to launch attacks, you can very easily get swept up in the assault and take a lot of damage.
Usually this type of player wants to see your damage meter as high as possible, and any attack that hits is worth it. Poor IA players will be consistently aggressive and space aggressively. more intelligent IA players will use precision strings of attacks when given an opening.
Initiates Reaction (IR)
IR players will look for tendencies of the opponents before launching attacks of their own. This mindset works usually with a very persistent playstyle and a more patient attitude. IR players will usually shield and dodge rather than launch a random attack. These players can still be aggressive, but their will be points of hesitation to play attacks. Usually this kind of player doesn't need especially high damage to kill, but looks more for openings or weak points in offense or defense. Good IR players will remain flexible throughout the fight, employing similar counter tactics, but not repeating this tactic or making it to obvious. A poor IR player will find something that works and stubborn ly stick top it, assuming they have you beat if they keep this up.
A good, simple way to understand the differences between IA and IR is to imagine you are below a ToonLink whose using Down A. An IA ToonLink will try to hit you with down A. An IR player will Use down A behind you, where they expect you to roll. Please understand these is a very basic example that would not bear weight in an actual game. In other words this is a way to mentally consider the direct personality differences between the two players.
Avoids Opposing Action (AA)
AA players use the premise that they longer they live, the more damage they can deal. Surviving is a big deal for AA players. While not neccissarily good at dealing out the heavy damage, AA players focus on not getting hit. or as more famously said, not jumping into the ****. This avoidance creates a tendency of being over cautious, which means they are quite suseptable to an attack outside of their comfort zones, but they will excell at defending against a wide variety of tactics. This sort of player puts up an interesting fight. In general games against AA players can be very long. sometimes reaching up to 12-15 minutes. This is part of the time constraint problem that I'd imagine could help or hurt the AA player depending on the situation.
Avoids Opposing Reaction (AR)
AR players are the most cautious of all. They will probably relly of projectile attacks, or generally "safe" moves. They don't focus as much on not taking damage, but they focus on preventing or avoiding response. This can take form in a string of relentless attacks, or in a much more passive play style. A good AR player will probably combine both of these traits, dealling lots of damage when the see an opening. PLEASE do not confuse the AR player with the IR player. AR is very much based on their own play style. IR plays to beat the opponents playstyle.
Please also remember that noe of these categories completely label a player, but more define general parameters of their playstyle.
That's it for now.
Awkward zone info.
Yes and no. They are similar to your charts in that they are palces where the moveset doesn't connect, by more importanty, they indicate a set dstance where the opponent feels uncomfortable initiating a response. That;s why it's an awkward zone. To far away, and a player would just move to attack or regain proper spacing. To close, the player will initiate attack. at just the right distance and height, you can really cripple even the best of players, putting them out of a comfortable range. To demonstrate this stand right outside of ike's fsmash hit box. He won't want to charge quick draw becasue he'll feel your too close. Odds are he'll try to rush you with a dsah attack, or roll back wards. eitherway, the feild switches from his control(or nuetral control) to your control. Pressure him with a shield while standing in that position, and you can force him to roll backwards. If he doesn't know his own range too well, he may even try to fsmash you. If he's more competent, he may charge his Fsmash hoping you'll excpect it instantly and mistime your attack. Either way. YOu can pretty much stand their and laugh at him until he does something stupid. And it's not a matter of if he screws up, it's when.
Similar Awkwards zones are all ove rthe place for different characters. Heavy aerial characters won't care as much. becasue a jump kinda moves them enough so hat they will feel safe. Of course youy can force the jump, which in a sense still accomplishes your goal, no?
I'm wirking on finding more Awkward Zones as aI build a categorization system. I hope it's quite apparent that without the categorization system, it becomes harder to predict these things. A more IR Ike will roll backwards. A more IA ike may attempt an attack, ect.
Player gathered Info!
I'd like to thank thinkaman for this great info.
This is a call to All Jiggs, send me info on your matches. remember, the skill of the player isn't super important, but it's their play style that's important.
IA Pit: try as hard as you can do dodge his flurry of attacks. If you can apply some pressure of your own to slow him down. A rampaging IA is never something you want. generally it's a good plan to face pit in the air. An aggressive player such as this will likely launch attacks instead of just trying to evade you in air. If your careless with your aerial control, you can wind up stuck in the IA Pit attack chain. Most important;y keep your preferred distance! I'd recommend not getting too far away since he does have very flexible projectiles.
Awkward zones for IA Pit. IA Pit players really don't have wide awkward zones. They will keep the pressure up as hard as they can, so even at long range they can and will likely pump out a stream of arrows. We can however break down the Awkward zones for range attacks, A ground attacks, and B attacks.
Melee range(ground A attacks)
Of course the first thing to do when you want to manipulate a character is to get away from their comfort zone. In this case Pit's ground base extends as far as f-tilt. Stay right out side this range to initiate a ground based response. Most likely we're talking about a dash grab or a dash attack. either way, expect a move towards you. I'd recommend pound, OOS nair(if you think he'll dash attack), or rising fair -> retreat. If you want you could even bait a shield to initiate grab, the follow up of your choice. Keep in mind you have to be fast, cause the distance in going to close really fast.
Range Attacks (standard B only)
Pit has a very useful range attack. he can curve it in a fan like shape extending away from him. During his hold he can swap sides, so he's never going to fire an arrow in the wrong direction. They come out fairly fast, so keep on you toes. This range attack can't hit outside of a set height right outside of pit's Usmash range. Hovering around here will Invariably initiate a U air. from Pit, so be careful. If you hover to bait the Uair and then fast fall as you retreat back. you can dodge the Uair and have pit still using the move. From here follow up with your choice attack.
Special moves. (B moves(if B moves were used in the range attack section, they will not be covered here.)
Pit has Three special moves. UpB, Side B, and Down B. The IA pit is never going to use Down B so just ignore that. If by some miracle he does. Grab him. Up B offstage is always an invitation to attack Pit. But IA Pit may prefer a glide, since he will then be able to use his glide attack. The odds of Up B coming out offensively in this fight are incredibly low. Side B is the only special move you can expect. This is annoying if it hits, but slows Pit down a lot and allows you top get behind him for an attack of your choice. Pit's special base doesn't give much of a threat.
Overall Manipulation tactics.
IA Pit is like a bull. He's relentless, but you can set him up to suit your needs in a few ways. Standing right ouside of range will initiate a grab or a dash attack. floating diagonally above The Pit(outside of Usmash range) will tempt a U air. The ground Zone is your best bet to manipulate in this case.
Credits.
(This analysis was provided primarily by Thinkaman for his battle information with KY, secondary sources include watching the Pit boards for moves that they like, and nondescript posts made by jiggly boarders.)
Lucario:
Interestingly enough, the nice guys down at the lucario boards already have their own classification system. It's not as thorough as Yours Truly's, but It focuses more on the different ways to play Lucario. Conveniently, this is exactly what I wanted so now we're using their guide to beat them instead of playing as them.
HOW TO
Here are their different 'classes' of lucario.
Agressive- Tends to frighten or overwhelm the other player with spaztic playing. More prone to risk taking. Utilizes the fact Lucario is weak at low %'s and makes up for doubling HpS (hits per second). Most players don't see this kind of lucario, and don't know how to combat it. Sounds like IA Lucario
Neutral- The most commonly seen lucario, partly because most new to lucario will tend to like this place. This is you back-and fourth play type. Wont take control of the match, but wont be a push-over either. Also the fall to or back point from Defensive or Agressive.
Sounds like IR Lucario.
Defensive- Arguably thee best way to play lucario. These players will slow the game down to their own speed, and by allowing the other person to attack all the time, and miss, and break their morale. Think Invisible gamer wall. Also a great time to find out the other players response moves and best way to counter act them. Once the other player has been read, then going aggressive to apply pressure to the weak points, and win the game.
Sounds Like AR Lucario.
So far All I have enough info on is the IR Lucario. SO AWAY WE GO!
IR Lucario:
IR Lucario Wants to grab you more tahn anything else. These lucario players don't like getting to much into A attacks, And prefer to fight at moderate range. Because of this, just being jigglypuffs gives us a big advantage when fighting this type of lucario. Avoid lucario's grab just like you would the IC, and hit him hard with air attacks. Using rest earlier on in the fight isn't a terrible idea, since a low % lucario isn't that strong, so if you miss it's ok. Then again, lucario is one of the heavier characters so plan for long life span. More importantly remember that Lucario has a lot of control options, IR players will use and abuse these. Although the IR lucario is semi comfortable in the air, he can't match the ferocity of a jigglypuff, so hit him hard when he's in the air, just watch out for Dair, and Bair can be dangerous if it's planned out well. you should be able to see a Bair coming though.
More is on the way
Please excuse the layour of this post, it's not done yet.
Awkward zones for IA Pit. IA Pit players really don't have wide awkward zones. They will keep the pressure up as hard as they can, so even at long range they can and will likely pump out a stream of arrows. We can however break down the Awkward zones for range attacks, A ground attacks, and B attacks.
Melee range(ground A attacks)
Of course the first thing to do when you want to manipulate a character is to get away from their comfort zone. In this case Pit's ground base extends as far as f-tilt. Stay right out side this range to initiate a ground based response. Most likely we're talking about a dash grab or a dash attack. either way, expect a move towards you. I'd recommend pound, OOS nair(if you think he'll dash attack), or rising fair -> retreat. If you want you could even bait a shield to initiate grab, the follow up of your choice. Keep in mind you have to be fast, cause the distance in going to close really fast.
Range Attacks (standard B only)
Pit has a very useful range attack. he can curve it in a fan like shape extending away from him. During his hold he can swap sides, so he's never going to fire an arrow in the wrong direction. They come out fairly fast, so keep on you toes. This range attack can't hit outside of a set height right outside of pit's Usmash range. Hovering around here will Invariably initiate a U air. from Pit, so be careful. If you hover to bait the Uair and then fast fall as you retreat back. you can dodge the Uair and have pit still using the move. From here follow up with your choice attack.
Special moves. (B moves(if B moves were used in the range attack section, they will not be covered here.)
Pit has Three special moves. UpB, Side B, and Down B. The IA pit is never going to use Down B so just ignore that. If by some miracle he does. Grab him. Up B offstage is always an invitation to attack Pit. But IA Pit may prefer a glide, since he will then be able to use his glide attack. The odds of Up B coming out offensively in this fight are incredibly low. Side B is the only special move you can expect. This is annoying if it hits, but slows Pit down a lot and allows you top get behind him for an attack of your choice. Pit's special base doesn't give much of a threat.
Overall Manipulation tactics.
IA Pit is like a bull. He's relentless, but you can set him up to suit your needs in a few ways. Standing right ouside of range will initiate a grab or a dash attack. floating diagonally above The Pit(outside of Usmash range) will tempt a U air. The ground Zone is your best bet to manipulate in this case.
Credits.
(This analysis was provided primarily by Thinkaman for his battle information with KY, secondary sources include watching the Pit boards for moves that they like, and nondescript posts made by jiggly boarders.)
Hard DATA(this is the stuff fellow jigglypuffs have written about specific fights, or the info they Pm'd me.) useful if you want the primary source) For now all we have is what thinkaman has posted. please contribute to this research.
Thinkaman's contribution.
Ky's Pit: You are evasive enough to dodge all of Pit's KO moves--you have no excuse to get hit by a bair or f-smash in particular. Chase him down and bair pressure. Pit can't do much in the air as long as you watch out for the bair and glide attack. KY's Pit isn't going to give you the chance to gimp him, but most people aren't KY so get out there with nairs and dairs. I think it is worth it to save fair in this matchup, dash attack no so sure.
Stealth Raptor's Lucario: He went Lucario agaisnt me, which turned out to be a legit decision. My understanding of the matchup increased significantly after just two more matches--save fair, save dash, try for rest. I missed a rest in one of the matches, lol, might have changed the outcome as close as they were. It's really hard to grab Lucario, so focus on bairs for damage. Beware his fair. Finally, go ALL OUT off stage. I didn't do this enough, as Stealth pointed out afterwards. I feel like this matchup could develop significantly, for both parties.
GMo's Falco: The key to fighting Falco hinges on the idea that you want to attack him in the air, but that is hard. Throws are godly, because they put him in the air and do 10%+. Falco players are normally conditioned to grab as much as possible, especially at low percents, so take advantage of this. You should always be nair-ing Fox/Falco side-Bs, this got me tons of damage in these matches and basically turned one-stocks into two-stocks.
Karmacide's Snake: I was really, really nervous about playing a really good Snake first match in Brackets. He barely took 50% first stock, but I immediately killed him with a single fair off the side on respawn. (Soooo ridiculous!) I tried to keep up bair pressure, but Karma would go "out and up" like Snakes should. Once above me, he would b-reversal a grenade to shift his position and evade my aerial punish. This worked much better than throwing out a dangerous but punishable Snake aerial--I tried to start predicting it and punish him, but I never got anything concrete down. I think most my KOs were with Fairs, even though I didn't save it. I also remember getting a lot of grabs. Man, fighting Snake is so fun. All other high-tier mains should switch to Snake.
UTC Zac's G&W: AHHHHHHHHHHHH! Texas people are amazing enough WITHOUT playing G&W! Lesson #1: Always ban Green Greens against G&W, it's like a G&W circus. I tried to practice resting the key before I played him, but I never got it even once. (I can reliably avoid the hit with the invincibility frame, but I could never figure out how to hit G&W...) I don't know what it is about G&W's u-smash, but it's like a magnet. I might to test out the hitbox of it more carefully, since most my losses to G&W are to that move.
BadNewsBear: Playing BnB was a testament to the fact that rollout is a game changer if they have never had to deal with it before, I definitely got a majority of my KOs with it. He played a defensive Marth, and punished me harshly with retreating fairs. Marth seems like the perfect character, until you remember how unrewarding his throws are. Play defensive and try to get grabs against Marth, especially b-throws on the edge, they are as valuable agianst Marth as spanimals. After I beat Marth, he switched to Meta Knight and I had a much easier time. I did get impatient though, and he kept me from 2 stocking him.
Bwett's Yoshi: Words are not enough... but I will try. Space the heck out of Yoshi, watch out for eggs, don't walk into Smashes. Bwett was far too good to let me footstool him out of double jump no matter how hard I tried in every match--his air dodges were perfect. Still always try this against Yoshis, since they aren't perfect it's a free stock. If you are put in an egg, always DI out away from the stage and pop out at your leisure. (That should be obvious) Finally, don't take Yoshi to Norfair, ever... work counter-pick I've made in quite awhile. Me and Bwett talked about this afterwards. BRINSTAR is the way to go.
Zeton's Fox: Zeton's Fox is a scary, scary thing. You need to understand one thing about Fox: The 5-o'clock zone when he is in the air? Where his dair hits? That is a vortex of death? If you are ever there, you will suffer. Do you understand that? Everyone knows to avoid the uair, and watch out for double-jumped surprise fair too, but dair is what will destroy you. Remember how fast Fox accelerates: if you aren't in the death vertex, he will move so that you are. Fox controls the vertical distance beteen the two characters, and you control the horizontal distance, never lose sight of that. Zeton can cancel his side-B with 100% accuracy, so you should never try to rest it... just anticipate and aerial. Like most characters, you can bait an attack to the edge and punish with uair. The key to Fox and Falco is to figure out how they prefer to recover, so you can punish it.
Thinkaman's Falcon: Nothing can be done. You might as well give him a dollar and be done with it
(not edited for content.) Primary DATA evidence in word for word what is given to me/posted on the boards, nothing is changed.
